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Post by inger on Mar 27, 2022 0:02:37 GMT -5
I copied this post from a guy who called himself Dr. Strangeglove on Baseball Fever back in 2013. Okay. I left out his final line, in which he stated something like, White is still not a Hall of Famer.
I don’t think he was either, but it wasn’t easy to post HOF numbers in his era.
I’m sure I’ll add a bit more to this thread, and hope others chime in with facts or even questions.
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White primarily played in the second deadball era in a pitchers' park with a .500 ball club. The Yankees during his career averaged 6th to 7th best in runs scored, i.e slightly below average. His stats will never have the shine of 100 runs, 100 RBIs, 200 hits given that. There were few for him to drive in and few to drive him in. With a league BA of .251 in his career, lower walk rates, higher CS rates, the number of PAs were necessarily limited. All we have is WAR among many metrics and opinions to understand how good he was.
1) He led the league in PO for LF 8 straight years and is 12th overall in the last 59 years in TZR, yet he gets little credit for being good defensively.
2) He was good at the plate (equaling the runs created of many 1st basemen who are far more respected as sluggers), because HR and RBI have more glitter than fewer DP and more walks.
3 He was a good base runner. His SB% was 67% (the league then was 62%, the league now is 73%), but probably a lot of his steals were hit and runs. His XBT% was 55% which is massively higher than a lot of players 'renowned' for being great base runners. But he didn't steal a lot of bases, so he is not credited as a good base runner.
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Post by kaybli on Mar 27, 2022 0:29:34 GMT -5
Informative post!  |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 27, 2022 5:04:06 GMT -5
In his "Historical Baseball Abstract," Bill James rates Roy White several rungs higher than HOFer Jim Rice. He notes the disadvantages of playing in White's time and place compared to Rice's.
Playing in a tough hitter's park for plenty of bad to mediocre teams, White never hit .300 but topped .290 four times. Never drove in 100 runs but did drive in 94 at a time when runs were tough to come by. He was a strong defensive player, smart, didn't strike out much, and was a solid citizen. Like Bobby Murcer in the same period, victimized by comparisons to the glory era that had just ended. Fortunately he got to enjoy another glory era at the very end of his career.
Roy White has almost become famous for being under-rated!
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Post by rizzuto on Mar 27, 2022 9:04:39 GMT -5
What couldn’t Roy White not do as a position player? White was as well rounded as any player - good at every aspect of the game - and he had that distinctive move of tucking his elbow close to his body to finish his batting stance routine. When I was little, my brother Michael would ask me to imitate Yankee players swings. White was a favorite of mine to do as an eight year old.
Roy is certainly on anyone’s list of underrated Yankees.
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Post by inger on Mar 27, 2022 9:04:46 GMT -5
I just deleted the second copy of the post. I saw that three people liked it the first time, and one one gave it a like the second time. See Russ? See what I’ve been trying to tell you? Posting a single idea once is good enough! … 😂
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Post by inger on Mar 27, 2022 9:08:43 GMT -5
I recall as a youth hearing about Joe Rudi being under rated so often that I finally decided that he was over rated because so many people had made that opposite statement.
Given the eras, Rudi’s numbers may have been close to what White might have produced in a more offense favoring environment. That’s just ofc the top of my head though…
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Post by rizzuto on Mar 27, 2022 9:18:19 GMT -5
I just deleted the second copy of the post. I saw that three people liked it the first time, and one one gave it a like the second time. See Russ? See what I’ve been trying to tell you? Posting a single idea once is good enough! … 😂 Poor Russ. He proudly admits to being a contrarian, then becomes upset when others disagree with him. It’s an odd cycle of posting history. Though I often look up statistics for him when he poses a question, he nevertheless ignores questions I pose to him. For some reason, my defense of you upset him, which was not my intent. He’d have a lot more fun if he just engaged more in discussions and realize that even if we disagree with him, we still like him. After all this time, he’s our Noetsi and part of the family. |
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Post by inger on Mar 27, 2022 9:23:50 GMT -5
I just deleted the second copy of the post. I saw that three people liked it the first time, and one one gave it a like the second time. See Russ? See what I’ve been trying to tell you? Posting a single idea once is good enough! … 😂 Poor Russ. He proudly admits to being a contrarian, then becomes upset when others disagree with him. It’s an odd cycle of posting history. Though I often look up statistics for him when he poses a question, he nevertheless ignores questions I pose to him. For some reason, my defense of you upset him, which was not my intent. He’d have a lot more fun if he just engaged more in discussions and realize that even if we disagree with him, we still like him. After all this time, he’s our Noetsi and part of the family. The tradition goes back to MrG. He told me on the phone that he loved arguing with Russ. Now, to me, that’s saying something. I enjoy what Russ brings here too. Especially on the days when I can figure out what it is! 😂 I do think that some of his posts are intended to yank our chains. He’s pretty good at it either way… |
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Post by chiyankee on Mar 27, 2022 9:25:36 GMT -5
I remember Roy White from the end of his career on those Bronx Zoo back to back champion Yankee squads. I can picture him now, in his batting stance, all hunched over and choking up on the bat. At Yankee Stadium, it was always good to have a second CF type outfielder in LF because the dimensions were so large. Kind of like what we've seen with Brett Gardner over the years and I think that describes Roy White too.
Later he was coach on some of the Joe Torre Yankee teams.
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 27, 2022 9:35:53 GMT -5
I recall as a youth hearing about Joe Rudi being under rated so often that I finally decided that he was over rated because so many people had made that opposite statement. Given the eras, Rudi’s numbers may have been close to what White might have produced in a more offense favoring environment. That’s just ofc the top of my head though… You know who really was under-rated from those A's teams was Gene Tenace. Career OBP of .388 and OPS+136. Especially considering he was a catcher for more than half of his games over 15 seasons. But only one All Star game. Plus his birth first name was Fury. Had he gone by what he should have in Italian -- Fury Ten-Ott-Chi -- he might be in the HOF. |
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Post by rizzuto on Mar 27, 2022 9:52:30 GMT -5
I recall as a youth hearing about Joe Rudi being under rated so often that I finally decided that he was over rated because so many people had made that opposite statement. Given the eras, Rudi’s numbers may have been close to what White might have produced in a more offense favoring environment. That’s just ofc the top of my head though… You know who really was under-rated from those A's teams was Gene Tenace. Career OBP of .388 and OPS+136. Especially considering he was a catcher for more than half of his games over 15 seasons. But only one All Star game. Plus his birth first name was Fury. Had he gone by what he should have in Italian -- Fury Ten-Ott-Chi -- he might be in the HOF. I never realized his numbers were so impressive. That was one of those golden ages for catchers, but still an OPS+ of 136. We have our catcher on the all underrated team! |
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Post by inger on Mar 27, 2022 10:03:34 GMT -5
You know who really was under-rated from those A's teams was Gene Tenace. Career OBP of .388 and OPS+136. Especially considering he was a catcher for more than half of his games over 15 seasons. But only one All Star game. Plus his birth first name was Fury. Had he gone by what he should have in Italian -- Fury Ten-Ott-Chi -- he might be in the HOF. I never realized his numbers were so impressive. That was one of those golden ages for catchers, but still an OPS+ of 136. We have our catcher on the all underrated team! Mickey Tettleton is a contender for that role too, at .369 and +122. Plus switch-hitting. Only a .241 hitter, but an effective one… |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 27, 2022 10:24:58 GMT -5
I never realized his numbers were so impressive. That was one of those golden ages for catchers, but still an OPS+ of 136. We have our catcher on the all underrated team! Mickey Tettleton is a contender for that role too, at .369 and +122. Plus switch-hitting. Only a .241 hitter, but an effective one… Yep, Tettleton was another good one. I can still see that stance, holding the bat waist-high, standing straight up. |
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Post by inger on Mar 27, 2022 13:44:08 GMT -5
Mickey Tettleton is a contender for that role too, at .369 and +122. Plus switch-hitting. Only a .241 hitter, but an effective one… Yep, Tettleton was another good one. I can still see that stance, holding the bat waist-high, standing straight up. I’ve developed a great deal of respect for Jim Sundberg. I think he should be the starter at catcher based on some amazing defense and a respectable bat. With their versatility there would still be room for Tenace and Tettleton as BUC/utility players. Oh, to go back to the days of seeing each team with a third string catcher!… |
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Post by inger on Mar 27, 2022 13:48:55 GMT -5
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