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Post by rizzuto on Jan 25, 2023 14:38:54 GMT -5
Just to complete the thought here -- Scott Rolen squeaks in at 76.2 percent. The only other close calls were Todd Helton at 72 and Billy Wagner at 68. Omar Vizquel continues to be overlooked at only 19.5 and Andy Pettitte at 17. PED poster children A-Rod and Manny languish in the mid-30s. We've gone over this plenty so I won't do a rehash, but I do wonder if some of these guys actually saw Vizquel play. Scott Rolen isn't going to generate a lot of excitement -- no problem with him going in, although he's definitely a second-tier HOFer, as are the majority of people in there. Nothing wrong with it, he was strong at pretty much every aspect of the game. It seems a bit surprising that he played 183 more games with the Phillies than with the Cardinals, although of his seven All Star selections five were with the Cardinals and two were with the Reds late in his career. Only two voted in by the writers over the past three years (the other was David Ortiz in 2021) which equals the fewest elected by them over a three year span since the vote became annual shortly after World War II. Somebody has to get in every year, at least from one of the committees, or there is no ceremony. No ceremony is bad for the Hall, for Cooperstown and for MLB. Rolen: 122 OPS+ Mattingly: 127 OPS+ Rolen: .281 BA Mattingly: .307 BA Rolen: 1 Silver Slugger Mattingly: 3 Silver Slugger Rolen: 2077 Hits Mattingly: 2153 Rolen: 8 GG Mattingly: 9 GG Rolen: 7 All-Star Teams Mattingly: 6 All-Star Teams Rolen: 0 MVP (1 top ten) Mattingly: 1 MVP (4 top tens) Rolen: 0 Bolded Stats (Led League) Mattingly: 14 Bolded Stats (Led League) I just do not understand how someone like Harold Baines is in the Hall of Fame but Bernie Williams and Jorge Posada are not. Now, Scott Rolen is in and Mattingly is not even close. Mattingly is arguably the best defensive first baseman ever with only Keith Hernandez in the debate. Scott Rolen was a wonderful defensive third baseman, but has anyone ever thought he was the best ever? Was he better than Nettles? Buddy Bell? Brooks Robinson? Better than Mike Schmidt? Clete Boyer? Adrian Beltre? Some will say that Mattingly did not play long enough, yet Mattingly has more hits than Rolen, a typical counting stat. To me, Mattingly was better than Scott Rolen, better than Fred McGriff, and as for Harold Baines...must I even say it? |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jan 25, 2023 16:00:26 GMT -5
Excellent summation, Rizz. Makes it seem like an open and shut case for Mattingly. And it's not as if he's such ancient history to the voters. Anyone in their early to mid 40s would remember him in his prime.
Too many on-the-cusp Yankees aren't getting in --Munson, Nettles, Mattingly, Bernie, Pettitte, Posada -- I'm not arguing they should all be in, but that's a lot of near misses.
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Post by rizzuto on Jan 25, 2023 16:26:51 GMT -5
Excellent summation, Rizz. Makes it seem like an open and shut case for Mattingly. And it's not as if he's such ancient history to the voters. Anyone in their early to mid 40s would remember him in his prime. Too many on-the-cusp Yankees aren't getting in --Munson, Nettles, Mattingly, Bernie, Pettitte, Posada -- I'm not arguing they should all be in, but that's a lot of near misses. As Bertie Wooster would likely say, "Right, Ho, Old Horse!" I've often questioned my perceived Yankee snubs, for instance Jeter for MVP in 1999 and 2006 and Matsui and Judge for ROY. But, Harold Baines? Fred McGriff? Now, Scott Rolen. I must say that I thought Rolen deserved consideration, but the gap between Rolen and Mattingly and Bernie and Posada and Munson and Pettitte? That's just too many question marks for me. Bernie Williams was a centerfielder with an .858 OPS for his career, batting cleanup on those championship teams. Posada had a career .848 OPS at catcher. Here are some of the Hall of Famers' comparative career OPS stats at catcher: Ted Simmons: .785 Ray Schalk: .656 Louis Santop: .814 Ivan Rodriguez: .798 Ernie Lombardi: .818 Carlton Fisk: .797 Rick Ferrell: .741 Buck Ewing: .807 Yogi Berra: .830 Gary Carter: .773 Roger Bresnahan: .764 Johnny Bench: .817 That means only seven catchers in the Hall of Fame have a better career OPS than Jorge Posada: Bill Dickey, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, Mike Piazza, Gabby Harnett, Biz Mackey, and Josh Gibson. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jan 25, 2023 17:37:38 GMT -5
Excellent summation, Rizz. Makes it seem like an open and shut case for Mattingly. And it's not as if he's such ancient history to the voters. Anyone in their early to mid 40s would remember him in his prime. Too many on-the-cusp Yankees aren't getting in --Munson, Nettles, Mattingly, Bernie, Pettitte, Posada -- I'm not arguing they should all be in, but that's a lot of near misses. As Bertie Wooster would likely say, "Right, Ho, Old Horse!" I've often questioned my perceived Yankee snubs, for instance Jeter for MVP in 1999 and 2006 and Matsui and Judge for ROY. But, Harold Baines? Fred McGriff? Now, Scott Rolen. I must say that I thought Rolen deserved consideration, but the gap between Rolen and Mattingly and Bernie and Posada and Munson and Pettitte? That's just too many question marks for me. Bernie Williams was a centerfielder with an .858 OPS for his career, batting cleanup on those championship teams. Posada had a career .848 OPS at catcher. Here are some of the Hall of Famers' comparative career OPS stats at catcher: Ted Simmons: .785 Ray Schalk: .656 Louis Santop: .814 Ivan Rodriguez: .798 Ernie Lombardi: .818 Carlton Fisk: .797 Rick Ferrell: .741 Buck Ewing: .807 Yogi Berra: .830 Gary Carter: .773 Roger Bresnahan: .764 Johnny Bench: .817 That means only seven catchers in the Hall of Fame have a better career OPS than Jorge Posada: Bill Dickey, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, Mike Piazza, Gabby Harnett, Biz Mackey, and Josh Gibson. We Woosters can wear the mask, but that chart made it a bit of a challenge. As much as I have long believed Posada was vastly under-appreciated -- and being cognizant of some of the holes in his game -- it would never have occurred to me that he had a better OPS than bona fide crushers like Yogi, Bench, Lombardi, etc. And in fact about 90 points higher than the beloved Thurman himself. Now most of those guys were better defensively than Jorge (not Lombardi perhaps) but he definitely compensated in a big way with the bat. And he wasn't Sanchez-level awful behind the plate by any means. Now I want a Yankee catcher HOF twofer with Munson and Posada. |
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Post by inger on Jan 25, 2023 19:02:33 GMT -5
Excellent summation, Rizz. Makes it seem like an open and shut case for Mattingly. And it's not as if he's such ancient history to the voters. Anyone in their early to mid 40s would remember him in his prime. Too many on-the-cusp Yankees aren't getting in --Munson, Nettles, Mattingly, Bernie, Pettitte, Posada -- I'm not arguing they should all be in, but that's a lot of near misses. As Bertie Wooster would likely say, "Right, Ho, Old Horse!" I've often questioned my perceived Yankee snubs, for instance Jeter for MVP in 1999 and 2006 and Matsui and Judge for ROY. But, Harold Baines? Fred McGriff? Now, Scott Rolen. I must say that I thought Rolen deserved consideration, but the gap between Rolen and Mattingly and Bernie and Posada and Munson and Pettitte? That's just too many question marks for me. Bernie Williams was a centerfielder with an .858 OPS for his career, batting cleanup on those championship teams. Posada had a career .848 OPS at catcher. Here are some of the Hall of Famers' comparative career OPS stats at catcher: Ted Simmons: .785 Ray Schalk: .656 Louis Santop: .814 Ivan Rodriguez: .798 Ernie Lombardi: .818 Carlton Fisk: .797 Rick Ferrell: .741 Buck Ewing: .807 Yogi Berra: .830 Gary Carter: .773 Roger Bresnahan: .764 Johnny Bench: .817 That means only seven catchers in the Hall of Fame have a better career OPS than Jorge Posada: Bill Dickey, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, Mike Piazza, Gabby Harnett, Biz Mackey, and Josh Gibson. An impressive list as well as a strong argument, though catching is about far more than OPS, and OPS+ would probably be a better measuring stick, given the ebb and flow of offense through various seasons. I like Posada more for the Hall than I do Mattingly, though I’m not really sure. Mattingly had a short but extremely strong peak that is also in some ways a hitting equivalence of the Koufax’ peak that get him a special “no waiting” election to the Hall. Was Posada perhaps a victim of consistency in the stead of a few attention-getting great seasons? And what of Mattingly? Could he be a victim of loftier expectations because his achievements were suddenly limited by health? And if so, is that completely the opposite of how the HOF reacted to Koufax?… |
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Post by rizzuto on Jan 25, 2023 20:13:31 GMT -5
As Bertie Wooster would likely say, "Right, Ho, Old Horse!" I've often questioned my perceived Yankee snubs, for instance Jeter for MVP in 1999 and 2006 and Matsui and Judge for ROY. But, Harold Baines? Fred McGriff? Now, Scott Rolen. I must say that I thought Rolen deserved consideration, but the gap between Rolen and Mattingly and Bernie and Posada and Munson and Pettitte? That's just too many question marks for me. Bernie Williams was a centerfielder with an .858 OPS for his career, batting cleanup on those championship teams. Posada had a career .848 OPS at catcher. Here are some of the Hall of Famers' comparative career OPS stats at catcher: Ted Simmons: .785 Ray Schalk: .656 Louis Santop: .814 Ivan Rodriguez: .798 Ernie Lombardi: .818 Carlton Fisk: .797 Rick Ferrell: .741 Buck Ewing: .807 Yogi Berra: .830 Gary Carter: .773 Roger Bresnahan: .764 Johnny Bench: .817 That means only seven catchers in the Hall of Fame have a better career OPS than Jorge Posada: Bill Dickey, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, Mike Piazza, Gabby Harnett, Biz Mackey, and Josh Gibson. We Woosters can wear the mask, but that chart made it a bit of a challenge. As much as I have long believed Posada was vastly under-appreciated -- and being cognizant of some of the holes in his game -- it would never have occurred to me that he had a better OPS than bona fide crushers like Yogi, Bench, Lombardi, etc. And in fact about 90 points higher than the beloved Thurman himself. Now most of those guys were better defensively than Jorge (not Lombardi perhaps) but he definitely compensated in a big way with the bat. And he wasn't Sanchez-level awful behind the plate by any means. Now I want a Yankee catcher HOF twofer with Munson and Posada. Posada was no Johnny Bench, but he was closer to Bench than he was to Sandwich. Posada was as good with balls in the air and pop-ups as anyone, had extremely strong hands, and a strong arm. He was also the vocal and emotional leader of the infield when he was behind the plate and was the fiery voice in the dugout. In short, Jorge was one tough SOB, who burned to win titles. Were there more athletic catchers behind the plate? Absolutely. Were there better base runners? Most certainly. But, there were too many times that Posada carried those teams when he was hot. Too many doubles in the gap with runners on in big spots. Of all the Core players, he is somehow the least appreciated. I always thought Girardi was overrated, and he blocked Posada unnecessarily for at least a couple years. I had issues with both Girardi and Posada in terms of pitch selection, but sometimes it is difficult to tell if that is the catcher, the pitcher, or the bench. One thing I valued about Posada above all else was his ability to hit to the opposite field and to draw walks. Jeter retired with a .377 OBP. Jorge: .374! If you remember, Posada entered his first game as a Yankee as a pinch runner! |
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Post by rizzuto on Jan 25, 2023 20:27:41 GMT -5
As Bertie Wooster would likely say, "Right, Ho, Old Horse!" I've often questioned my perceived Yankee snubs, for instance Jeter for MVP in 1999 and 2006 and Matsui and Judge for ROY. But, Harold Baines? Fred McGriff? Now, Scott Rolen. I must say that I thought Rolen deserved consideration, but the gap between Rolen and Mattingly and Bernie and Posada and Munson and Pettitte? That's just too many question marks for me. Bernie Williams was a centerfielder with an .858 OPS for his career, batting cleanup on those championship teams. Posada had a career .848/121 OPS at catcher. Here are some of the Hall of Famers' comparative career OPS stats at catcher: Ted Simmons: .785/118 Ray Schalk: .656/83 Louis Santop: .814/126 Ivan Rodriguez: .798/106 Ernie Lombardi: .818/126 Carlton Fisk: .797/117 Rick Ferrell: .741/95 Buck Ewing: .807/103 Yogi Berra: .830/125 Gary Carter: .773/115 Roger Bresnahan: .764/126 Johnny Bench: .817/126 That means only seven catchers in the Hall of Fame have a better career OPS than Jorge Posada: Bill Dickey/127, Roy Campanella/126, Mickey Cochrane/129, Mike Piazza/143, Gabby Harnett/126, Biz Mackey/132, and Josh Gibson/214. I placed the OPS+ for you Inger, simply as a belated birthday present. One thing we must remember is that Posada had the misfortune to play in the PED era. Too many inflated numbers within his tenure and cohort, which also inflates the period's OPS+, which is one of the reasons I used straight OPS. Josh Gibson with a 214 is gratuitous. Babe Ruth wasn't that close at 206. An impressive list as well as a strong argument, though catching is about far more than OPS, and OPS+ would probably be a better measuring stick, given the ebb and flow of offense through various seasons. I like Posada more for the Hall than I do Mattingly, though I’m not really sure. Mattingly had a short but extremely strong peak that is also in some ways a hitting equivalence of the Koufax’ peak that get him a special “no waiting” election to the Hall. Was Posada perhaps a victim of consistency in the stead of a few attention-getting great seasons? And what of Mattingly? Could he be a victim of loftier expectations because his achievements were suddenly limited by health? And if so, is that completely the opposite of how the HOF reacted to Koufax?… |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jan 25, 2023 20:33:00 GMT -5
We Woosters can wear the mask, but that chart made it a bit of a challenge. As much as I have long believed Posada was vastly under-appreciated -- and being cognizant of some of the holes in his game -- it would never have occurred to me that he had a better OPS than bona fide crushers like Yogi, Bench, Lombardi, etc. And in fact about 90 points higher than the beloved Thurman himself. Now most of those guys were better defensively than Jorge (not Lombardi perhaps) but he definitely compensated in a big way with the bat. And he wasn't Sanchez-level awful behind the plate by any means. Now I want a Yankee catcher HOF twofer with Munson and Posada. Posada was no Johnny Bench, but he was closer to Bench than he was to Sandwich. Posada was as good with balls in the air and pop-ups as anyone, had extremely strong hands, and a strong arm. He was also the vocal and emotional leader of the infield when he was behind the plate and was the fiery voice in the dugout. In short, Jorge was one tough SOB, who burned to win titles. Were there more athletic catchers behind the plate? Absolutely. Were there better base runners? Most certainly. But, there were too many times that Posada carried those teams when he was hot. Too many doubles in the gap with runners on in big spots. Of all the Core players, he is somehow the least appreciated. I always thought Girardi was overrated, and he blocked Posada unnecessarily for at least a couple years. I had issues with both Girardi and Posada in terms of pitch selection, but sometimes it is difficult to tell if that is the catcher, the pitcher, or the bench. One thing I valued about Posada above all else was his ability to hit to the opposite field and to draw walks. Jeter retired with a .377 OBP. Jorge: .374! If you remember, Posada entered his first game as a Yankee as a pinch runner! We view him the same way. More than anything I loved the competitive fire. I always felt confident when he was in there. In his own style, a bit like Munson or Berra with the absolute dedication to winning. One of the first times I began to realize that I did not like Brian Cashman was when he spoke out of school about Posada. Can't even remember what it was -- it pre-dated his shot at Jeter over free agency -- I just remember thinking "what a prick." |
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Post by rizzuto on Jan 25, 2023 20:37:22 GMT -5
Posada was no Johnny Bench, but he was closer to Bench than he was to Sandwich. Posada was as good with balls in the air and pop-ups as anyone, had extremely strong hands, and a strong arm. He was also the vocal and emotional leader of the infield when he was behind the plate and was the fiery voice in the dugout. In short, Jorge was one tough SOB, who burned to win titles. Were there more athletic catchers behind the plate? Absolutely. Were there better base runners? Most certainly. But, there were too many times that Posada carried those teams when he was hot. Too many doubles in the gap with runners on in big spots. Of all the Core players, he is somehow the least appreciated. I always thought Girardi was overrated, and he blocked Posada unnecessarily for at least a couple years. I had issues with both Girardi and Posada in terms of pitch selection, but sometimes it is difficult to tell if that is the catcher, the pitcher, or the bench. One thing I valued about Posada above all else was his ability to hit to the opposite field and to draw walks. Jeter retired with a .377 OBP. Jorge: .374! If you remember, Posada entered his first game as a Yankee as a pinch runner! We view him the same way. More than anything I loved the competitive fire. I always felt confident when he was in there. In his own style, a bit like Munson or Berra with the absolute dedication to winning. One of the first times I began to realize that I did not like Brian Cashman was when he spoke out of school about Posada. Can't even remember what it was -- it pre-dated his shot at Jeter over free agency -- I just remember thinking "what a prick." Sometimes, we can soften to people over time, excusing their faults due to familiarity. "He may be a prick, but he's our prick." That is not the case for me with Brian Cashman. "He is a prick, and you are free to take him off our hands." |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jan 25, 2023 20:58:08 GMT -5
I normally do soften to "our pricks" over time. While not forgetting their downsides, that was the case for me with The Boss, with Billy Martin, with Reggie Jackson. I think the difference is those guys were hot blooded and at least had the capacity for generosity in their better moments. Cashman seems more cold-blooded, so he'll never cause a scene like those guys, but he's more of a calculating bastard. I might soften to him over time too, but it will take more of an effort.
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Post by inger on Jan 25, 2023 21:05:43 GMT -5
An impressive list as well as a strong argument, though catching is about far more than OPS, and OPS+ would probably be a better measuring stick, given the ebb and flow of offense through various seasons. I like Posada more for the Hall than I do Mattingly, though I’m not really sure. Mattingly had a short but extremely strong peak that is also in some ways a hitting equivalence of the Koufax’ peak that get him a special “no waiting” election to the Hall. Was Posada perhaps a victim of consistency in the stead of a few attention-getting great seasons? And what of Mattingly? Could he be a victim of loftier expectations because his achievements were suddenly limited by health? And if so, is that completely the opposite of how the HOF reacted to Koufax?… Thanks for adding the OPS+, as well as the reminder that Posada’s handsome 121 was accomplished in an environment where cheating was a regular happenstance. We’ll never know if Posada took anything or not, but I’d be surprised if a man that pissed on his hands too toughen them up would deign to injest or inject unnatural substances in his body. If anything it could be said then, that Posada was even better than his numbers. It seems with each passing year since my visit to the Hall of Fame I feel that I was fated to go there before it was too late. Before the selection process became one that I would be so disenfranchised from. Even then, there seemed to be only a few players that really belonged there. That stood so far apart and above the others that they should have had a more special spot, or that the plaques should have varied in size according to the accomplishment of the player. The HOF I visited didn’t seem like a place that Scott Rolen was going to enter without paying admission. That Harold Baines, as nice of a man as he is, might have to pay double to get in. For many years I simply accepted that Mattingly didn’t belong. His “counting stats” were what they were. He caught a bad break with his body. But it’s not true. He belongs. The fault is within the system. Human error, Yankee prejudice, that’s where the blame lies. Posada belongs, too. And Bernie. I’m still not so sure Pettitte belongs. He’s sort of a Jack Morris to me, and I do t like him being in. Perhaps watching those mid to late sixties pitchers spoiled me… |
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Post by rizzuto on Jan 26, 2023 7:49:37 GMT -5
We must not forget that for three years, Mattingly was considered the best all-around player in MLB. He was an MVP and lost his best season to one PED user and pitcher Roger Clemens. That was a travesty: 238 hits and only 35 strikeouts and finish second in MVP to a freaking pitcher who appeared in 33 games. Thanks for adding the OPS+, as well as the reminder that Posada’s handsome 121 was accomplished in an environment where cheating was a regular happenstance. We’ll never know if Posada took anything or not, but I’d be surprised if a man that pissed on his hands too toughen them up would deign to injest or inject unnatural substances in his body. If anything it could be said then, that Posada was even better than his numbers. It seems with each passing year since my visit to the Hall of Fame I feel that I was fated to go there before it was too late. Before the selection process became one that I would be so disenfranchised from. Even then, there seemed to be only a few players that really belonged there. That stood so far apart and above the others that they should have had a more special spot, or that the plaques should have varied in size according to the accomplishment of the player. The HOF I visited didn’t seem like a place that Scott Rolen was going to enter without paying admission. That Harold Baines, as nice of a man as he is, might have to pay double to get in. For many years I simply accepted that Mattingly didn’t belong. His “counting stats” were what they were. He caught a bad break with his body. But it’s not true. He belongs. The fault is within the system. Human error, Yankee prejudice, that’s where the blame lies. Posada belongs, too. And Bernie. I’m still not so sure Pettitte belongs. He’s sort of a Jack Morris to me, and I do t like him being in. Perhaps watching those mid to late sixties pitchers spoiled me… Posada didn’t even believe in using batting gloves. And, the pickle brine and urine old school ritual is probably as close to the cream and the clear as he got. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jan 26, 2023 15:07:53 GMT -5
I remember a 1959 article in Sports Illustrated attacking the caliber of players being elected to the Hall of Fame. The Hall had only been open for 20 years at that point. The article was written by Joe Judge, who had been a very good first baseman for the Senators in the 1920s.
The reason I remember it was 1959 is because it was published a few weeks before I made my first highly-anticipated visit to Cooperstown, and I thought Judge was raining on my parade. Didn't matter, I was in awe anyway by the things they had in there.
Judge included quotes from his former teammate Sam Rice, who stated that the Hall was becoming "a joke." This was four years before Rice himself was voted in, which no doubt caused him to change his mind.
Judge didn't hesitate to name names -- he thought Tinker, Evers and Chance had no business being there. He thought Dizzy Dean was a self-promoting loudmouth (hard to argue with that) who didn't deserve to be in (I do argue with that) and that Rabbit Maranville and Ray Schalk and Roger Bresnahan were just fan and writer favorites who didn't belong. I'm sure there were others I'm not recalling, but those stuck in my mind.
The article, which in large part was promoting Rice for entry, generated a lot of feedback, both for and against. And it was great for the Hall, because it was the first widely-disseminated debate on the election process, which is something that has kept the HOF in the forefront of public debate among baseball fans to this day. Even people who hate it -- and everybody hates something about it -- can never totally ignore it. This doesn't happen in football or basketball or hockey or any other sports HOF. It does happen with the Rock and Roll HOF, which by any standard is inferior to baseball's version.
I'm probably a minority of one on this, but I think the baseball HOF does an excellent job on two significant issues -- as a repository of baseball history and of keeping the game in the forefront of fan engagement. I've never met a serious baseball history fan who didn't give a thought to Cooperstown, even if it was negative.
I think if the Hall limited induction to only players at the Ruth-Williams-Mays-Mantle-Aaron-Schmidt-Gwynn-Johnson-Feller-Seaver etc. level, there would be maybe one or two inductions every three or four years and the public would lose interest.
Just looking at how many people visit Cooperstown every year, and how it is a staple of debate, including on this forum (and more so on its predecessor) I think the Hall has achieved its goals.
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Post by pippsheadache on Jan 26, 2023 15:16:36 GMT -5
BTW, in looking at a few stats concerning players in the Hall who I would call debatable, I noticed that Heinie Manush, another teammate of Judge and Rice mentioned above, had an identical OBP (.374) and OPS+ (121) as Jorge Posada. Manush had a much higher BA, playing his entire career at the absolute peak of offensive production (1921-1939) but he had far fewer HRs.
And in the FWIW department, Manush was from Tuscumbia AL, which is also the hometown of Helen Keller. Their years overlapped enough that the families had to have known each other.
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Post by inger on Jan 26, 2023 15:26:48 GMT -5
BTW, in looking at a few stats concerning players in the Hall who I would call debatable, I noticed that Heinie Manush, another teammate of Judge and Rice mentioned above, had an identical OBP (.374) and OPS+ (121) as Jorge Posada. Manush had a much higher BA, playing his entire career at the absolute peak of offensive production (1921-1939) but he had far fewer HRs. And in the FWIW department, Manush was from Tuscumbia AL, which is also the hometown of Helen Keller. Their years overlapped enough that the families had to have known each other. The irony being that if Manush had Keller’s eyesight and she his, we may never have heard of either one of them… |
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