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Post by chiyankee on Dec 9, 2018 21:37:12 GMT -5
Are any of these two really Hall of Famers? Lou Piniella was just one vote short of getting in, I assume as a manger. Heck, I'd rather have Albert Belle or Orel Hershiser on my team over Smith or Baines. The HOF is getting more irrelevant every year.
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Post by inger on Dec 9, 2018 22:37:02 GMT -5
It’s such a dumb concept that players are on the HOF ballot for 15 years with several hundred people involved in the voting, don’t get elected...and then a small group of 16 voters gets to allow them entry at 75% of the vote.
Next thing you know, the people that don’t get elected by the 16 man committee will get another chance through a 4 man committee made of their family members. If they don’t get elected in that round, they’ll have another round with monkeys picking names out of a hat.
I always heard Harold Baines was one of the nicest players ever to play the game. I suppose that helped him. He had a really fine career. He was well-rewarded on pay day and I assume he’s still a super nice guy with many toys and trophies. He probably deserves everything he has. Except this. Hall Of Fame. Babe Ruth. Mickey Mantle. Ted Williams. Harold Baines. One of these names does not fit.
Lee Smith? I never felt he fit in the Hall Of Fame. Giving the benefit of the doubt, he was once the career saves leader in an era that saves often required multiple innings. I’m going to review his career. I don’t think I’ll be changing my mind, but I just want to see what I think if I give him what these voters did...a second chance...
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 9, 2018 23:41:54 GMT -5
No.
Lee Smith was a very good reliever and closer for a long time; however, the bar has been set by Rollie Fingers, Rich Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, and Mariano Rivera. Smith is a notch below those guys.
Harold Baines was a good hitter for a long time, but he was never considered a "great" player or arguably the best of his era and/or for his position. Also, he was primarily a DH. Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer but not Don Mattingly? Lastly, Baines did not achieve any of the typically acknowledged benchmarks or counting numbers (much less a combination): .300 BA, 3000 hits, 500 HRs.
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Post by inger on Dec 10, 2018 0:17:00 GMT -5
After reviewing Smith’s numbers, he may have been a bit better than I gave him credit for. That said, still... I think he comes up short. I can be a bit more accepting of him than I can Baines, but I personally would pass on both of them...
I had about forgotten that Smith tossed 8 games of relief as a Yankee and garnered 3 of his 478 career saves in a Yankee uniform...
Let’s also recall that while Smith was once the career saves leader, he started collecting saves in the early years of the era when save numbers increased rapidly. His saves count is now somewhat insignifant compared to relievers who have taken the hill since, and his level of dominance was never consistently at the top of his peers...
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Post by greatfatness on Dec 10, 2018 5:27:57 GMT -5
Are any of these two really Hall of Famers? Lou Piniella was just one vote short of getting in, I assume as a manger. Heck, I'd rather have Albert Belle or Orel Hershiser on my team over Smith or Baines. The HOF is getting more irrelevant every year. I stopped caring about the HOF a while ago based on the lack of care with which the voters treat the honor. This proves the veterans committee cares even less. Baines was a good hitter, not a hall of famer. Smith just pitched for a long time. |
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Post by michcusejoe5 on Dec 10, 2018 8:27:03 GMT -5
The list of guys that now must be in the HOF because Harold Baines has been voted in is quite long.
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Post by greatfatness on Dec 10, 2018 9:22:37 GMT -5
Also just noticed that Pinella came close. Lou was a lot of fun to root for as a player and also entertaining as a manager but he’s also not a Hall of Famer if those words mean anything.
And as much as I disliked Steinbrenner, it is pretty amazing he’s not in the HOF given his impact on the sport.
The system is badly flawed. It is almost like they want fans to stop caring about the HOF.
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Post by michcusejoe5 on Dec 10, 2018 9:43:24 GMT -5
Also just noticed that Pinella came close. Lou was a lot of fun to root for as a player and also entertaining as a manager but he’s also not a Hall of Famer if those words mean anything. And as much as I disliked Steinbrenner, it is pretty amazing he’s not in the HOF given his impact on the sport. The system is badly flawed. It is almost like they want fans to stop caring about the HOF. Piniella is probably fringe on the managerial side but not as a player. Won a World Series and managed the winningest regular season team of all time. More all time wins than Leyland and Sciocisa who I suspect will get in. |
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Post by chiyankee on Dec 10, 2018 13:03:42 GMT -5
The list of guys that now must be in the HOF because Harold Baines has been voted in is quite long. I guess there's hope for Mattingly now. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 10, 2018 13:10:02 GMT -5
Also just noticed that Pinella came close. Lou was a lot of fun to root for as a player and also entertaining as a manager but he’s also not a Hall of Famer if those words mean anything. And as much as I disliked Steinbrenner, it is pretty amazing he’s not in the HOF given his impact on the sport. The system is badly flawed. It is almost like they want fans to stop caring about the HOF. My sentiments to a T, GF. Almost nobody this side of Len Trost is going to say what a great guy George Steinbrenner was, but his impact on baseball was certainly at least as much as other club owners who are in there like Tom Yawkey and Walter O'Malley and assorted MacPhails. I don't think it hurt Baines's chances that his former manager Tony LaRussa and Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf were on that 16-person committee. Everyone says what a good guy he is and he was a solid player for a very long time, but no objective person watching him play ever thought "now there is one of the best to ever play the game." Maybe a little better case for Lee Smith, but he was still more of a compiler than a dominant force the way Mariano and Hoffman and Gossage were. He never passed my eye test for HOFer. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 10, 2018 13:11:40 GMT -5
The list of guys that now must be in the HOF because Harold Baines has been voted in is quite long. I guess there's hope for Mattingly now. Chi, their careers overlapped quite a bit. Nobody in his right mind would have traded Don Mattingly for Harold Baines straight up. |
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Post by kaybli on Dec 10, 2018 16:43:19 GMT -5
Harold Baines's Stunning Hall of Fame Election Is an Embarrassment
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Post by inger on Dec 10, 2018 18:36:48 GMT -5
Many may not care for this opinion, but I’m going to offer it anyway. The real Hall of Fame exists only in our minds. We all know who the all-time greats are, and the number of players that really belong there is way less than the number of players that are on the inside.
Probably only about 1/2-2/3 are truly head and shoulders above the players who are “very good” players. Heck, there are probably only 50 players or so that should be considered no doubt about it sure shot Hall of Fame players.
Maybe we’ve reached the point where the only way a player can be added is if the electors are also charged with removing s lessor player. What a horrible thing to have a player’s family face, or even the player himself in his old age to face de-enshrinement, yet... what to do? At this point, I’m beginning to think that at juncture in history all players will go in automatically as soon as they retire. Harold Baines? Harold F’ing Baines? Really? No.
Even when I went to the HOF back in ‘98 or ‘99, whenever that was, I felt there was some excess baggage in there. Now? It’s getting worse.
Perhaps one solution would be to differentiate between the top fifty or so players, putting them in an “Exceptional Greats” wing. Another might be to move executives and managers to a separate wing. I just don’t like the Babe and the Mick getting the same treatment as Harold Baines.
I’ve also often thought that there should be a separate area for players elected due to their glove work despite bats that didn’t qualify them.
Maybe also a separate display for dead-ball era players...
Okay. ‘Nuf bitching...I’m done. Unless I think of more, which might happen...
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