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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 28, 2023 16:15:14 GMT -5
Yogi Berra (#1), Johnny Bench (#2), Roy Campanella (#3), Mickey Cochrane (#4), Mike Piazza (#5), Carlton Fisk (#6), Bill Dickey (#7), Gary Carter (#8), Gabby Hartnett (#9), Ted Simmons (#10), Joe Torre (#11), Bill Freehan (#12), Ivan Rodriguez (#13), Thurman Munson (#14) and Elston Howard (#15) - the greatest catchers in baseball history as ranked by Bill James in The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, who wrote: 15. Elston Howard Howard reached the Yankees in 1955 and, although he played fairly well, was never a star until 1961. Everbody knows that Bill Dickey worked with the young Yogi Berra, teaching Berra to catch. But fewer people know that Dickey stayed with the Yankees for years as a coach, and also worked with Elston Howard when Stengel finally decided that Howard was going to be his next catcher. In 1961, the first year post-Casey, Howard burst into the limelight wit a .348 season, 21 homers, and then had four genuinely outstanding seasons, 1961-64, winning an MVP Award with a 1963 seasons that, in all honesty, was not 1% better than the other three seasons. We have his Win Shares from 1961 through 1964 at 29, 20, 28, and 32. He faded quickly after that, due to injuries. This is very much the same career pattern that Bill Dickey had. Dickey reached the Yankees in late 1928, but he, too, was never really outstanding until 1936, when he hit .362 with 23 homers. He, also, was then superb for four years, posting Win Share totals of 25, 32, 27, and 27. Then, like Howard, he had injuries and faded away. Obviously Dickey was better than Howard, although not all that much better, in my opinion, and just a tiny bit better in his four big seasons. And, to the extent that Dickey was better, he was better mostly because the park - Yankee Stadium - favored Dickey, whereas it almost ruined Howard. In his career, Dickey hit more than two-thirds of his home runs in Yankee Stadium - one of the highest home-park home run percentages in history. Howard, on the other hand, has one of the lowest percentages of home runs at home, because Yankee Stadium at that time was a $20 taxi ride to left field. Dickey outhomered Howard 202 to 167, in careers of fairly comparable length, but that's all because of Yankee Stadium. In road games, Howard outhomered Dickey 113 to 67… I keep hoping James does one more Abstract before he goes to that great spreadsheet in the sky. I doubt it will happen at this point. That most recent one was done in about 2001. I wonder where Posada and Posey and Molina and Mauer would rank. Surely no team can put up five catchers of the caliber of Dickey, Berra, Howard, Munson and Posada. Not even close. You can come up with two or three very good to great ones for a lot of teams -- say with a five-year minimum to qualify -- but nobody has five at the level of the Yankees. The Dodgers would have Campanella and Piazza, but then there's a big dropoff to guys like Roseboro and Scioscia and Ferguson. The Giants have Posey and real old timers like Bresnahan and Ewing, but that doesn't cut it. The Athletics would have Cochrane and Tenace and Steinbach, but then it's a deep dive. Cardinals with Molina and Simmons, maybe McCarver, but then another steep decline. Reds with Bench, Lombardi, and hold it right there. Anyway, like Moose Skowron -- his best friend on the Yankees -- and Joe DiMaggio for that matter -- Elston Howard's power numbers were severely curtailed, as you point out, by being a right-handed hitter in old Yankee Stadium. While personally I would place Ellie fifth among the great Yankee catchers -- I just think his hitting, while very good for a catcher, is just a tad below the others, and while defensively he ranks above Posada I'm not sure he outranks the other guys. That's not to say he wasn't an excellent defensive catcher -- he was. One thing impressed on me was how close behind the batter he set up. It was a wonder he didn't get hit with the bat. Whitey Ford said he actually preferred pitching to Howard over Berra because of the sinking action of his pitches; Elston's practically being in the uniform of the hitter stole a lot of strikes, according to Ford. Ellie did not become the Yanks main catcher until he was 31 years old, and he and Berra more or less swapped being backup catcher and left fielder. He was amazingly a nine-time All Star -- considering that he was a 26-year-old rookie -- and three of his All Star selections came when he was backing Yogi at catcher and mostly playing LF or First Base. Thanks for pointing out that Bill Dickey worked not only in developing Yogi Berra, which is well-known, but also Elston Howard. Ellie was quoted as saying "Without Bill Dickey, I am nobody as a catcher." He must have been one heck of a coach. I don't know if he worked with Thurman Munson -- it would have been possible. There is that great Old Timer's Day photo of Dickey, Berra, Howard and Munson standing together. I remember Chi posted it on here one time. Bill died just a few years before Posada came along. What a wonderful player Elston Howard was. An absolute gentleman. Reliable as sunrise. Not only the first African American Yankee, but the first African American coach in MLB history. I think Yankee fans under the age of about 60 know him mainly as the intermediary in the dugout argument between Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson. Typical of him to try to defuse a situation. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 28, 2023 16:20:57 GMT -5
Any ranking that has Tropicana last has some credibility right off the bat. And I like that he didn't do the automatic Wrigley/Fenway as one and two (although they are both great parks, unquestionably.) PNC as number one is a reasonable choice -- this guy obviously loves places with a view beyond the park, as do I -- I do really like PNC, where I've been several times. He has Oracle at number two -- I've never been, but on TV it sure seems like it could get the top spot just because of that scene in the harbor. That was genius, especially after all those years in deadly Candlestick, where I did attend some games -- maybe endured is a better word -- the contrast with the new place is total. I'm glad Camden Yards still gets deserved props -- I always give it a few points for changing the trend, just as I dock the White Sox for being the last to build a slightly updated version of those monstrosities of the 60s and 70s. Typical of that franchise. I think he has it right putting Yankee Stadium near the middle. It gets kudos for looking more like the magnificent original Stadium, but it loses a lot of points for being across the street from where it should have always remained. If you can't see the Bronx County Courthouse over the right field facade, it can't be real Yankee Stadium. I still don't like to think about it too much. I’ve been to Oracle back when it was called AT&T park. Beautiful ball park for sure. Have you been to Citi Field Kaybli? I have not -- I did drag myself to Shea a few times -- I loved the view of the auto junkyard and the planes coming into LaGuardia making conversation impossible. So Metsian. You should visit Dodger Stadium when you go to see your brother. Assuming you haven't been there already. I really like it, but it's not everybody's cup of tea. Easy to get into a fistfight if you're feeling mean. |
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Post by kaybli on Mar 28, 2023 16:32:34 GMT -5
I’ve been to Oracle back when it was called AT&T park. Beautiful ball park for sure. Have you been to Citi Field Kaybli? I have not -- I did drag myself to Shea a few times -- I loved the view of the auto junkyard and the planes coming into LaGuardia making conversation impossible. So Metsian. You should visit Dodger Stadium when you go to see your brother. Assuming you haven't been there already. I really like it, but it's not everybody's cup of tea. Easy to get into a fistfight if you're feeling mean. I have not been to Citi Field. Had the opportunity to go a few times but did not go in the end. Bad on me, a huge baseball fan. I hear the food there is as good as gets for a ballpark. I will definitely go to Dodger Stadium when I visit my brother one of these times. I heard traffic there is terrible though? |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 28, 2023 16:36:20 GMT -5
The 1961 season was Blanchard’s best. He batted .310 with a .613 slugging average. He hit four pinch-home runs and homered once for every 11.5 times at bat (Maris, who broke Babe Ruth’s home-run record that year, had one in every 9.7 at-bats). Blanchard hoped to get into 100 games in 1962, a mark he’d never reached in the majors, but it didn’t happen. At age 29, he was beginning to slip… Sort of like the 1998 Yanks, everything seemed to go right for that team. Can you imagine, three guys who were primarily catchers for their careers -- Berra, Howard and Blanchard -- all having over 20 home runs? Maris and Mantle HR derby for sure. Ford not even close to his best pitching but goes 25-4. Howard hits .348, 34 points higher than his next-best season. Two rookie pitchers, Bill Stafford and Rollie Sheldon, win 14 and 11 games. It was the closest thing to the 98 team I have seen, although you have to give the edge to the 98 team for winning 114 games compared to 109 for the 61 squad. Plus the 98 team finished 22 (!) games ahead of second-place Boston, while the 61 team was only eight games ahead of Detroit -- although with 101 wins, that was a better runner-up than the 98 Red Sox. I'd settle for either performance this year. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 28, 2023 16:40:23 GMT -5
Have you been to Citi Field Kaybli? I have not -- I did drag myself to Shea a few times -- I loved the view of the auto junkyard and the planes coming into LaGuardia making conversation impossible. So Metsian. You should visit Dodger Stadium when you go to see your brother. Assuming you haven't been there already. I really like it, but it's not everybody's cup of tea. Easy to get into a fistfight if you're feeling mean. I have not been to Citi Field. Had the opportunity to go a few times but did not go in the end. Bad on me, a huge baseball fan. I hear the food there is as good as gets for a ballpark. I will definitely go to Dodger Stadium when I visit my brother one of these times. I heard traffic there is terrible though? Hope you make it to Citi. Yeah, the traffic is bad at Dodger Stadium, but it's no different than the rest of LA. I must have gone to 30-40 games there and you just get used to it. Plus if you go early it's not bad at all, because so many fans don't show up until the third inning. Plan to be there at 6:00 for a 7:05 game and it's easy. Have a few Dodger Dogs (all beef, it's okay) and soak up the setting sun. I'll look forward to your report!! |
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Post by inger on Mar 28, 2023 16:49:19 GMT -5
The 1961 season was Blanchard’s best. He batted .310 with a .613 slugging average. He hit four pinch-home runs and homered once for every 11.5 times at bat (Maris, who broke Babe Ruth’s home-run record that year, had one in every 9.7 at-bats). Blanchard hoped to get into 100 games in 1962, a mark he’d never reached in the majors, but it didn’t happen. At age 29, he was beginning to slip… Sort of like the 1998 Yanks, everything seemed to go right for that team. Can you imagine, three guys who were primarily catchers for their careers -- Berra, Howard and Blanchard -- all having over 20 home runs? Maris and Mantle HR derby for sure. Ford not even close to his best pitching but goes 25-4. Howard hits .348, 34 points higher than his next-best season. Two rookie pitchers, Bill Stafford and Rollie Sheldon, win 14 and 11 games. It was the closest thing to the 98 team I have seen, although you have to give the edge to the 98 team for winning 114 games compared to 109 for the 61 squad. Plus the 98 team finished 22 (!) games ahead of second-place Boston, while the 61 team was only eight games ahead of Detroit -- although with 101 wins, that was a better runner-up than the 98 Red Sox. I'd settle for either performance this year. The ‘61 team had so-so performances with the bat from Richardson, Kubek, and Boyer. Other than Blanchard the bench contributed little with only Bob Cerv chipping in with anything close to helpful numbers. The home runs were legendary of course, but few mention the contributions of Coates and Arroyo, combining to go 26-10 with 34 saves in 260.1 innings. They were as important as any other aspect to that team’s success. Imagine if we could get those numbers from any two pitchers in our bullpen this year… but it takes 4 pitchers to pitch that many bullpen innings any more… |
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Post by inger on Mar 29, 2023 7:34:58 GMT -5
WHITEY FORD:
“You would be amazed,” Ford once said, “how many important outs you can get by working the count to where the hitter is sure you’re going to throw to his weakness and then throw to his power instead.”…
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Post by inger on Mar 29, 2023 7:37:29 GMT -5
WHITEY FORD:
“On the day I pitch, it’s me against the other guys,” he said. “Nothing is funny to me then.”…
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Post by inger on Mar 29, 2023 7:47:12 GMT -5
"I didn't cheat when I won the twenty-five games in 1961. I don't want anybody to get any ideas and take my Cy Young Award away. And I didn't cheat in 1963 when I won twenty-four games. Well, maybe just a little." - Whitey Ford in Slick: My Life In and Around Baseball …
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Post by inger on Mar 29, 2023 11:12:19 GMT -5
Taking a break from the Yankees, the last pitcher to hit a home run in MLB as a teenager was 19-year old Larry Dierker on 1966. Dierker also homered in 1965 as an 18-year old. Overall, Dierker was not a good hitter and finished his 14-year career with 4 home runs…
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Post by inger on Mar 29, 2023 12:00:24 GMT -5
Three homers have been struck by a single player 480 times. Johnny Mize and Sammy Sosa, who was a cheater each did it six times, but only Mize did it “for real”…
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 29, 2023 15:59:34 GMT -5
The ‘61 team had so-so performances with the bat from Richardson, Kubek, and Boyer. Other than Blanchard the bench contributed little with only Bob Cerv chipping in with anything close to helpful numbers. The home runs were legendary of course, but few mention the contributions of Coates and Arroyo, combining to go 26-10 with 34 saves in 260.1 innings. They were as important as any other aspect to that team’s success. Imagine if we could get those numbers from any two pitchers in our bullpen this year… but it takes 4 pitchers to pitch that many bullpen innings any more… Maybe today those guys aren't remembered, but at the time certainly Luis Arroyo's relief work was highly publicized, almost to the point of denigrating Ford's performance -- supposedly Luis was always bailing out Whitey. And he did do a good job that year, no question. Ford got dinged in some quarters for being a guy who didn't give you enough innings -- he averaged "only" 7 1/3 IP per start that year and had "only" 11 complete games in 39 starts. But he led the league in IP with 283, so that would seem to undermine the easy workload criticism. He pitched every four days like clockwork -- Houk used him much more effectively than Casey did. Casey would often save him to match up against the opponent's ace, even if it meant not pitching for a week, and he would also use him in relief in between starts from time to time. In addition to Ford going 25-4, the Yankees were 34-5 in games that he started. Arroyo was 15-5, but five of those wins and one of those losses came in games where he relieved Ford where either Whitey left with a lead or the game was tied. Ford played into the story by always saying things like "I'll have a great season if Arroyo stays healthy," but there were times when I think he got a bit annoyed with the scenario. But for sure, Arroyo did do a great job as a 34-year-old reclamation project, pitching 119 innings in 65 games (that's what closers did back then) with an ERA+ of 169, along with 29 saves and 54 games finished. He was an integral part of their success, and a fun guy as well. Jim Coates was one of the all-time great vultures. I didn't fully realize how fortune smiled on him at the time. He was both a spot starter and a reliever, and it's hard to argue with his bottom line -- between 1959-1962, he went an amazing 37-15 for the Yankees. However, over that same span his ERA+ was a smidgen below league average, at 97. So he was often in the right place at the right time, and that's what life is all about when you come down to it. He was also probably the least-liked player on those teams. He was very much a loner and a heavy-drinking solitary imbiber with a nasty disposition. You don't read a lot of fond recollections of Jim Coates by his teammates from that era. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 29, 2023 16:26:27 GMT -5
"I didn't cheat when I won the twenty-five games in 1961. I don't want anybody to get any ideas and take my Cy Young Award away. And I didn't cheat in 1963 when I won twenty-four games. Well, maybe just a little." - Whitey Ford in Slick: My Life In and Around Baseball … Somewhat like Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford got a lot of mileage out of having the other team obsessing over how he was doctoring the ball. He clearly relished this reputation -- as Tony Kubek said, "Whitey Ford loved being Whitey Ford." Slick, twinkle in the eye, knowing something you don't know. Ford claimed that he only started experimenting with baseballs late in his career, although he also once said that Warren Spahn and Lew Burdette showed him how they threw their "mudball" during the 1957 World Series. That seems like an odd time to show the opposing team's ace your tricks of the trade, but all three of those guys were chain-yankers of the first order. Ford also said that late in his career, in a tough spot, he would nick the ball with his ring or his belt, at least until the umpires started putting heat on him. Then, he claimed, Elston Howard would place a rivet in his shin guard to do the nicking on Whitey's behalf. He also said that he only threw a wet one when he had two strikes on a hitter, and that during the around-the-horn after the strikeout the infielders would rub the ball dry. Who knows how much of that is true? Likewise, Ford's reputation as a night-crawling carouser was definitely overblown. Not that he didn't do his share, but many of his teammates said he was always early to bed the night before he pitched, and that most of his high times came after the games when he had pitched. Joe DeMaestri, a reserve IFer on the 61 team after nine seasons of bouncing around the majors, said he was shocked to see how masterful Ford was on the mound. He said Whitey not only knew where his pitch was going, he knew where the batter would hit it and that he was always moving the fielders around to get them in a better position to field the ball. Kubek said he moved fielders around with his eyes. John Blanchard said he loved catching Ford because he called his own game and made it easy. Ralph Terry called him "the master -- like watching a pitching textbook in the flesh." Bud Daley, also a pitcher on that 61 team, said he never saw a guy who made pitching look so easy. The other pitchers had similar comments about his mound savvy. I guess that's how I and other fans from that time regarded him -- he just exuded confidence and you always felt he had everything under control. Partly it was an illusion -- even if he had a bad game, it never seemed to make an impression. He pulled the whole thing off, he was always Whitey Ford, the coolest guy in the game. |
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Post by inger on Mar 29, 2023 18:24:06 GMT -5
"I didn't cheat when I won the twenty-five games in 1961. I don't want anybody to get any ideas and take my Cy Young Award away. And I didn't cheat in 1963 when I won twenty-four games. Well, maybe just a little." - Whitey Ford in Slick: My Life In and Around Baseball … Somewhat like Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford got a lot of mileage out of having the other team obsessing over how he was doctoring the ball. He clearly relished this reputation -- as Tony Kubek said, "Whitey Ford loved being Whitey Ford." Slick, twinkle in the eye, knowing something you don't know. Ford claimed that he only started experimenting with baseballs late in his career, although he also once said that Warren Spahn and Lew Burdette showed him how they threw their "mudball" during the 1957 World Series. That seems like an odd time to show the opposing team's ace your tricks of the trade, but all three of those guys were chain-yankers of the first order. Ford also said that late in his career, in a tough spot, he would nick the ball with his ring or his belt, at least until the umpires started putting heat on him. Then, he claimed, Elston Howard would place a rivet in his shin guard to do the nicking on Whitey's behalf. He also said that he only threw a wet one when he had two strikes on a hitter, and that during the around-the-horn after the strikeout the infielders would rub the ball dry. Who knows how much of that is true? Likewise, Ford's reputation as a night-crawling carouser was definitely overblown. Not that he didn't do his share, but many of his teammates said he was always early to bed the night before he pitched, and that most of his high times came after the games when he had pitched. Joe DeMaestri, a reserve IFer on the 61 team after nine seasons of bouncing around the majors, said he was shocked to see how masterful Ford was on the mound. He said Whitey not only knew where his pitch was going, he knew where the batter would hit it and that he was always moving the fielders around to get them in a better position to field the ball. Kubek said he moved fielders around with his eyes. John Blanchard said he loved catching Ford because he called his own game and made it easy. Ralph Terry called him "the master -- like watching a pitching textbook in the flesh." Bud Daley, also a pitcher on that 61 team, said he never saw a guy who made pitching look so easy. The other pitchers had similar comments about his mound savvy. I guess that's how I and other fans from that time regarded him -- he just exuded confidence and you always felt he had everything under control. Partly it was an illusion -- even if he had a bad game, it never seemed to make an impression. He pulled the whole thing off, he was always Whitey Ford, the coolest guy in the game. I recently read a quote from Ford that there was no easier pitch to hit than a spitter that didn’t break. Another source said he said “splitter”, but I don’t think that term was even used back then. It would have been a forkball… |
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Post by chiyankee on Mar 29, 2023 18:42:29 GMT -5
Closers were built a little different in the 70's.
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