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Post by rizzuto on Oct 13, 2022 16:20:13 GMT -5
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Post by kaybli on Oct 13, 2022 18:39:24 GMT -5
Huge props to Cole for not breaking in the third. A lot of things went against him: bad defense and a bad ball call that should have been a strike and gotten him out of the inning earlier. But he hung in there and only allowed one run! |
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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 13, 2022 18:40:36 GMT -5
Billy, it seemed like in those days the Yankees would trade for veteran players who actually played better when they got to New York. In recent years it seems mostly to go in the opposite direction. Weiss's first big trade was obtaining junkballer Eddie Lopat from the White Sox, and he became a key part of the pitching staff for years. He purchased Johnny Mize, who the Giants considered to be washed-up, and Mize gave invaluable part-time service for the Yanks for five years. Likewise he got the aforementioned Gene Woodling off the scrap heap, and he was a marvelous performer for six seasons. Enos Slaughter was another supposedly washed up player who came over in his late 30s and showed that there was still life in there. He traded for important players like Bobby Shantz and Bob Turley and Don Larsen and Ryne Duren and Clete Boyer and Hector Lopez. And he was fired less than a year after making the trade that brought Roger Maris to the Yankees. And that doesn't even include his time as farm director, when he signed and developed Joe DiMaggio, Joe Gordon, Phil Rizzuto, Yogi Berra, Charlie Keller, Tommy Henrich, Vic Raschi and many others. He also had the insight to fire Bucky Harris as Yankee manager and replace him with Casey Stengel in a move that was widely ridiculed at the time. Weiss was almost pathologically shy, which came across as being cold and impersonal. He was not an easy man to negotiate with. But he had the jeweler's eye for talent. Bobby Shantz and Eddie Lopat were two favorites of Jim "Kitty" Kaat. When I think about Yankees of the 1970s, mostly wise trades of Gabe Paul built those teams: Munson was the anchor as the fourth pick of the first round of the 1968 amateur draft; Ed Figueroa and Mickey Rivers from the California Angels for Bobby Bonds; Graig Nettles and Jerry Moses for John Ellis, Jerry Kenney, Charlie Spikes and Rusty Torres from the Cleveland Indians; Ron Guidry a third round pick from my family's alma mater of what was the University of Southwestern Louisiana (USL); Willie Randolph, Ken Brett, and Doc Ellis from Pittsburgh Pirates for Doc Medich; Bucky Dent from the Chicago White Sox for Oscar Gamble and LaMarr Hoyt; Sparky Lyle from the Boston Red Sox for Danny Cater; Chris Chambliss and Dick Tidrow from Cleveland for Fritz Peterson, Steve Kline, Tom Buskey, and Fred Beene; Lou Pinella and Ken Wright from Kansas City Royals for Lindy McDaniel; Cliff Johnson from the Houston Astros for Mike Fischlin and Randy Niemann; the ageless Roy White retained for his entire career after being signed out of high school from Compton, California in 1961; then, of course, the big free agent acquisitions of Catfish Hunter, Don Gullett, and Reggie Jackson. Lot's of moxie, fire, fundamentals, and confident characters on that team. Good summation of Gabe Paul's tenure with the Yankees, Rizz. It had to be difficult being the intermediary between George Steinbrenner and Billy Martin. With a side of Reggie Jackson for good measure. Paul had only middling success in his long tenures with Cincinnati and Cleveland. But he sure got it together in New York. His work with the Yankees is under-appreciated. One of those funky baseball timelines -- Gabe Paul's first job in professional baseball was in 1920 as a 10-year old batboy for the Rochester Red Wings. His manager was MLB veteran George Stallings, who began his career in 1890 with Brooklyn. His last job was as GM of Cleveland, from which he retired in 1984. One of his players was Julio Franco, who retired in 2007. So Gabe Paul worked with major leaguers whose careers spanned 117 years. As for your Jim Kaat observation -- I could see why he admired Lopat and Shantz. Like him, they were soft-tossing southpaws (he was in the latter half of his career) who were exceptional fielders. Shantz won eight Gold Gloves -- the award didn't even exist in his first seven seasons -- and Kaat won 16 of them, in essence replacing Shantz as the perennial winner. Lopat's whole career was pre-GG, but he was noted for his defensive prowess. Ted Williams named Lopat as one of the five toughest pitchers he faced. |
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Post by kaybli on Oct 13, 2022 18:40:37 GMT -5
Daily bug reports from Cleveland from some guy on reddit:
Lifelong Yankee fan here who recently moved to Cleveland from New York for work. I live across the street from Progressive Field and just did a lap around the stadium. Yes, there are midges crawling over the stadium walls, but their numbers seem reduced from Sunday. Will keep everybody updated as we approach Saturday. I was 10 years old the night Joba succumbed to those damn midges and can’t handle another game like that…
Just did my daily lap around Progressive Field and I am happy to report that midge populations appear down from yesterday. Dead midges could also be found all over the sidewalks of downtown Cleveland. I’m no entomologist, but I like to believe this means things are headed in the right direction.
After not seeing a single midge downtown today, I spotted some holdouts at the stadium. We’re not in the clear yet, but I think we should be by Saturday. Asking all Yankee fans making the trip to bring some emergency Raid. I’ll be there Saturday and Sunday (unless we sweep) to do my part.
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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 13, 2022 18:41:50 GMT -5
Rizz -- are you unable to watch any of the post-season? |
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Post by kaybli on Oct 13, 2022 19:05:08 GMT -5
Rizz -- are you unable to watch any of the post-season? Not to answer for him but.. Okay fine, to answer for him:
He has MLBtv but they dont let you watch postseason games without a cable subscription. I gave him my FIOS credentials but FIOS is not a supported provider for MLBTV. I then found out you can watch TBS online through the website or app with a FIOS login so he should be good to go. But he may miss tomorrow's afternoon affair as he might be working.
Long story short: Manfred is a clown.
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Post by BillyBones on Oct 13, 2022 19:05:11 GMT -5
I'm appreciative of the good fans here who have an understanding of the history, and building of that history, related to the Yankees. I remember well in the post-WWII years buying the early copies of the magazines that previewed and predicted the 16 team baseball races. The Yankees were often picked 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th, and would end up winning the pennant and World Series. Weiss would pick up someone like Gene Woodling, and even Cliff Mapes, and Casey would get more out of them than expected. It seems now that the Yankee roster performs below the sum of its' parts, and Boonie's net effect is to lose some games that were winnable. Billy, it seemed like in those days the Yankees would trade for veteran players who actually played better when they got to New York. In recent years it seems mostly to go in the opposite direction. Weiss's first big trade was obtaining junkballer Eddie Lopat from the White Sox, and he became a key part of the pitching staff for years. He purchased Johnny Mize, who the Giants considered to be washed-up, and Mize gave invaluable part-time service for the Yanks for five years. Likewise he got the aforementioned Gene Woodling off the scrap heap, and he was a marvelous performer for six seasons. Enos Slaughter was another supposedly washed up player who came over in his late 30s and showed that there was still life in there. He traded for important players like Bobby Shantz and Bob Turley and Don Larsen and Ryne Duren and Clete Boyer and Hector Lopez. And he was fired less than a year after making the trade that brought Roger Maris to the Yankees. And that doesn't even include his time as farm director, when he signed and developed Joe DiMaggio, Joe Gordon, Phil Rizzuto, Yogi Berra, Charlie Keller, Tommy Henrich, Vic Raschi and many others. He also had the insight to fire Bucky Harris as Yankee manager and replace him with Casey Stengel in a move that was widely ridiculed at the time. Weiss was almost pathologically shy, which came across as being cold and impersonal. He was not an easy man to negotiate with. But he had the jeweler's eye for talent. You know, one name brings another to mind. or, two or three. Yes, Lopat was that steady guy in the rotation, and Casey used him judiciously, seeming to know when the other club was going to time Eddie's soft stuff. When Weiss saw a need, he did not mind giving value for value if the overall benefit was to the Yankees. Trading Joe Gordon for Allie Reynolds was just that. Gordon was really, really good, but the Yankees needed Reynolds. Weiss also developed a lot of players that were shipped away in trades and played many years for another club. I am thinking about highly regarded Gerry Priddy, and Jim Hegan, and Sherm Lollar, for a few. How about having three quality major league catchers arrive about the same time in Berra, Lollar, and Hegan? And, just closing was the career of Bill Dickey. Wow. Casey was not the first to see the value of a fireman-type closer, but he maximized that role when he had Joe Page, and Duren and others. I know synergistic is an elusive word, but it seemed that the Weiss/Stengel combination seemed to produce more than normally would be expected. |
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Post by rizzuto on Oct 13, 2022 19:28:54 GMT -5
Rizz -- are you unable to watch any of the post-season? Not to answer for him but.. Okay fine, to answer for him:
He has MLBtv but they dont let you watch postseason games without a cable subscription. I gave him my FIOS credentials but FIOS is not a supported provider for MLBTV. I then found out you can watch TBS online through the website or app with a FIOS login so he should be good to go. But he may miss tomorrow's afternoon affair as he might be working.
Long story short: Manfred is a clown.
Excellent job, speaking for me, Kaybli! You are correct on all accounts! |
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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 13, 2022 19:48:42 GMT -5
You know, one name brings another to mind. or, two or three. Yes, Lopat was that steady guy in the rotation, and Casey used him judiciously, seeming to know when the other club was going to time Eddie's soft stuff. When Weiss saw a need, he did not mind giving value for value if the overall benefit was to the Yankees. Trading Joe Gordon for Allie Reynolds was just that. Gordon was really, really good, but the Yankees needed Reynolds. Weiss also developed a lot of players that were shipped away in trades and played many years for another club. I am thinking about highly regarded Gerry Priddy, and Jim Hegan, and Sherm Lollar, for a few. How about having three quality major league catchers arrive about the same time in Berra, Lollar, and Hegan? And, just closing was the career of Bill Dickey. Wow. Casey was not the first to see the value of a fireman-type closer, but he maximized that role when he had Joe Page, and Duren and others. I know synergistic is an elusive word, but it seemed that the Weiss/Stengel combination seemed to produce more than normally would be expected. Billy, maybe Kaybli can move this discussion over to Miscellaneous where it probably should be. But since I'm here, and topics like this are catnip to me, let me add that in that exact same period when Yogi and Lollar et al were in the catcher pipeline, the Yankees also had other very good backstops like Gus Triandos, Clint Courtney, Ralph Houk and eternal backup Charlie Silvera in the system. And a few years later Elston Howard and Johnny Blanchard joined the party. Talk about an excess of riches. Triandos and Woodling went to Baltimore in the 500-man trade that brought Turley and Larsen to the Yanks. Charlie Silvera was Yogi's main backup for nine years and played on seven pennant-winning teams. He was a good hitter and solid defensively. But so durable was Yogi that despite being on the World Series roster in seven different seasons, Silvera only got into one game, and that was in his first World Series year, 1949. Scrap Iron Courtney had some good seasons with the Senators; the Yanks didn't get much for him. Houk of course hung around as a third catcher for eight years -- got into a grand total of 91 games -- but the Yanks were grooming him as a manager early on. In fact their anxiety about getting him to manage in the majors before he looked elsewhere played a role in the firing of Stengel. Weiss and Casey went back a long way, to their time together in the Eastern League in the 1920s. Despite his dour persona, Weiss was smart enough to realize that Casey's gut-feel method of managing worked better than the more binder-reading approach of Bucky Harris. |
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Post by inger on Oct 13, 2022 22:41:43 GMT -5
I'm appreciative of the good fans here who have an understanding of the history, and building of that history, related to the Yankees. I remember well in the post-WWII years buying the early copies of the magazines that previewed and predicted the 16 team baseball races. The Yankees were often picked 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th, and would end up winning the pennant and World Series. Weiss would pick up someone like Gene Woodling, and even Cliff Mapes, and Casey would get more out of them than expected. It seems now that the Yankee roster performs below the sum of its' parts, and Boonie's net effect is to lose some games that were winnable. Billy! Billy! I think I need to start calling you William or maybe Mr. Bones. I had no idea of your experience before this. As much as I did value you as a poster up to now, I only value you more now that I know you’ve seen players that I’ve only read about. Players that were playing before I was born! Thank you so much for sharing this information tonight. I hope you add more information about those golden times. I’m quite certain that you are now our senior poster and am hungry for more information from you. I think you may have knocked me down a notch from like second eldest poster to third, which is quite the relief. I love learning from those with more information than me!… |
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Post by inger on Oct 13, 2022 22:53:04 GMT -5
You know, one name brings another to mind. or, two or three. Yes, Lopat was that steady guy in the rotation, and Casey used him judiciously, seeming to know when the other club was going to time Eddie's soft stuff. When Weiss saw a need, he did not mind giving value for value if the overall benefit was to the Yankees. Trading Joe Gordon for Allie Reynolds was just that. Gordon was really, really good, but the Yankees needed Reynolds. Weiss also developed a lot of players that were shipped away in trades and played many years for another club. I am thinking about highly regarded Gerry Priddy, and Jim Hegan, and Sherm Lollar, for a few. How about having three quality major league catchers arrive about the same time in Berra, Lollar, and Hegan? And, just closing was the career of Bill Dickey. Wow. Casey was not the first to see the value of a fireman-type closer, but he maximized that role when he had Joe Page, and Duren and others. I know synergistic is an elusive word, but it seemed that the Weiss/Stengel combination seemed to produce more than normally would be expected. Billy, maybe Kaybli can move this discussion over to Miscellaneous where it probably should be. But since I'm here, and topics like this are catnip to me, let me add that in that exact same period when Yogi and Lollar et al were in the catcher pipeline, the Yankees also had other very good backstops like Gus Triandos, Clint Courtney, Ralph Houk and eternal backup Charlie Silvera in the system. And a few years later Elston Howard and Johnny Blanchard joined the party. Talk about an excess of riches. Triandos and Woodling went to Baltimore in the 500-man trade that brought Turley and Larsen to the Yanks. Charlie Silvera was Yogi's main backup for nine years and played on seven pennant-winning teams. He was a good hitter and solid defensively. But so durable was Yogi that despite being on the World Series roster in seven different seasons, Silvera only got into one game, and that was in his first World Series year, 1949. Scrap Iron Courtney had some good seasons with the Senators; the Yanks didn't get much for him. Houk of course hung around as a third catcher for eight years -- got into a grand total of 91 games -- but the Yanks were grooming him as a manager early on. In fact their anxiety about getting him to manage in the majors before he looked elsewhere played a role in the firing of Stengel. Weiss and Casey went back a long way, to their time together in the Eastern League in the 1920s. Despite his dour persona, Weiss was smart enough to realize that Casey's gut-feel method of managing worked better than the more binder-reading approach of Bucky Harris. Why does everyone forget Gus Niarhos?… |
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Post by kaybli on Oct 14, 2022 10:57:26 GMT -5
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Post by BillyBones on Oct 14, 2022 13:08:24 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the conversations, and noting the remarks about the Yankee catchers it is almost unbelievable the amount of catching talent that funneled through the Yankees in those years. I will be quiet now for awhile, but regards to all.
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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 14, 2022 13:35:20 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the conversations, and noting the remarks about the Yankee catchers it is almost unbelievable the amount of catching talent that funneled through the Yankees in those years. I will be quiet now for awhile, but regards to all. Don't be quiet, Billy. We love this stuff. You actually remember Cliff Mapes! That's golden. Welcome anytime. |
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Post by kaybli on Oct 14, 2022 21:25:11 GMT -5
Bug Report, Day 4:
Could hardly stomach my walk around Progressive Field after the end of today’s game, but it is my duty to the sub.
At least the news is good: a full lap around the stadium yielded less than 15 midge sightings (by far the fewest this week and down from tens of thousands just a few days ago). Let’s take Cleveland by storm tomorrow night.
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