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Post by azbob643 on Jan 14, 2024 19:31:38 GMT -5
If he only had Jeter's focus and attention to detail.
I dunno...seems any criticism of a player should be supported by legit stats, rather than snarky comments. |
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Post by ypaterson on Jan 14, 2024 20:02:41 GMT -5
Hey everyone, Got into a debate with a friend of mine regarding Jeter's defense. He was never a great defender at SS, but, by his standards, he's had better defensive years during certain periods in his career than other periods. I believe his best defensive years at SS came during 1996-2000 just based on the fact that his age, athleticism, range, first step, and arm were at their peak around those years as those are key factors for a SS to be viable defensively. However, my friend believes he was a better defender post-2000 given he became a smarter defender and got more experience although his physical traits were on the decline. Metrics wise, Jeter was one of the worst defenders from post-2004. Eye test included. I don't see how he was a better defender after 2000 as opposed to 1996-2000. Interested in what you guys believe. There is a popular story that Brian Cashman had serious issues with Jeter's defense at SS and after the 2007 season told him that he had to improve or change positions. The story goes that Jeter took dance lessions, practiced plyometrics or did something to improve in the years that followed. I do not know if any of that is true but it did get reported. |
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Post by inger on Jan 14, 2024 21:22:30 GMT -5
We’ve discussed Jeter’s defense at length on here many times. The consensus is generally that he did a lot of things well that aren’t graded for as much value as some of the things he didn’t do well and that he wasn’t hurting the team with his glove.
Maybe that’s because we’re all fanboys here, but the image of the worst shortstop in MLB history just doesn’t ring true…
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Post by posadafan24 on Jan 14, 2024 21:31:15 GMT -5
Torres with 68 . Man the offense was terrible last season Yeah...#6 in MLB with 68. Still...a misleading, almost irrelevant stat. how are rbis a misleading almost irrelevant stat? |
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Post by inger on Jan 15, 2024 6:16:14 GMT -5
Yeah...#6 in MLB with 68. Still...a misleading, almost irrelevant stat. how are rbis a misleading almost irrelevant stat? Like any stat they’re just a part of the story. In the case of Torre last season for instance. After Judge went down and Rizzo stopped hitting who was Torre going to drive in? (That goes for all the other Yankee hitters as well… If we saw RBI as a rate stat it would be more meaningful… # of opportunities vs. actual RBI… |
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Post by azbob643 on Jan 15, 2024 9:00:59 GMT -5
Yeah...#6 in MLB with 68. Still...a misleading, almost irrelevant stat. how are rbis a misleading almost irrelevant stat?
While there isn’t really evidence that hitting with men on base is a skill independent of your regular abilities, the more important reason why RBI isn’t a good measure of offensive performance in any way is that it doesn’t even capture the performance it means to. Batters do not have equal opportunities to collect RBI. In fact, in some cases the the stars can align and hitters can rack up tons of RBI despite performing quite poorly, simply because they were given very favorable circumstances. Importantly, this is not simply a small sample size issue. While better hitters have more RBI on average the relationship isn’t particularly strong even over entire careers. Generally speaking, RBI is not a useful measure of offensive performance. It may be useful as a way to explain the events of a game, but a player having 100 RBI and another having 75 RBI tells you almost nothing about those two players and the seasons they had. Generally, it’s hard to rack up huge RBI totals while having a horrible season, but there are much better stats available, even if you want one that rewards hitters for advancing runners. The key is you have to reward them for all runner advancements, not just the ones that lead to runs. |
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Post by inger on Jan 15, 2024 9:34:39 GMT -5
how are rbis a misleading almost irrelevant stat?
While there isn’t really evidence that hitting with men on base is a skill independent of your regular abilities, the more important reason why RBI isn’t a good measure of offensive performance in any way is that it doesn’t even capture the performance it means to. Batters do not have equal opportunities to collect RBI. In fact, in some cases the the stars can align and hitters can rack up tons of RBI despite performing quite poorly, simply because they were given very favorable circumstances. Importantly, this is not simply a small sample size issue. While better hitters have more RBI on average the relationship isn’t particularly strong even over entire careers. Generally speaking, RBI is not a useful measure of offensive performance. It may be useful as a way to explain the events of a game, but a player having 100 RBI and another having 75 RBI tells you almost nothing about those two players and the seasons they had. Generally, it’s hard to rack up huge RBI totals while having a horrible season, but there are much better stats available, even if you want one that rewards hitters for advancing runners. The key is you have to reward them for all runner advancements, not just the ones that lead to runs. Look at Joe Carter and some of his OPS in his 100 RBI seasons. The worst one was 77+ in 1997, but he had an 85+ and others right at or under 100+… |
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Post by qimqam on Jan 15, 2024 11:28:03 GMT -5
Was Jeter Ozzy Smith ?? NO
Was Jeter one of the most solid Fielding, make all of the routine and when it counted most plays, SS I've ever seen ?? Hell Yeah !!!
Defensive metrics are flawed and Defense in general is overated!!!
If you dont believe me ... How the hell did the Yankees win 5 Worlds Series with a team that was weak up the middle ... With Jeter, Posada, Knoblach and Bernie Williams
All guys that have been criticised for their defense after their careers
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Post by qimqam on Jan 15, 2024 11:30:56 GMT -5
That's what I remember most about Jeter's fielding. He made that play look easy.
Gleyber sometimes makes it look too easy... As did Cano |
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Post by Max on Jan 15, 2024 11:36:03 GMT -5
Yep, that play can't be easy knowing a big guy like Judge is chasing that same pop up.
That's a much harder play than some may think. Yep, and at YS there isn't much room down the lines as Jeter found out one night game vs Boston. |
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Post by Max on Jan 15, 2024 11:46:48 GMT -5
Maybe he has ADT like his former Cubs-Yankees buddy INF Starlin Castro had?
Casey Stengel had a saying, "I like players who drive in runs with their bats, not their gloves."
Clipper RBI a very misleading stat, but which player not named Judge led the Yanks in that category in '23?
One of the best examples of that was the season Judge hit 63 HRs. Alonzo finished with the same about of RBIs as Judge while hitting 22 fewer HRs and having 15 fewer hits. |
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Post by Max on Jan 15, 2024 11:54:20 GMT -5
Gleyber sometimes makes it look too easy... As did Cano Yep. In my opinion, no 2Bman made the double play 2B pivot better than Cano. |
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Post by qimqam on Jan 15, 2024 12:14:14 GMT -5
RBI a very misleading stat, but which player not named Judge led the Yanks in that category in '23?
One of the best examples of that was the season Judge hit 63 HRs. Alonzo finished with the same about of RBIs as Judge while hitting 22 fewer HRs and having 15 fewer hits. That Season compared ... Alonso 210 PA with RISP (+57) 355 PA with Men On (+49) Judge 153 PA with RISP 306 PA with Men On |
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Post by Max on Jan 15, 2024 12:26:16 GMT -5
One of the best examples of that was the season Judge hit 63 HRs. Alonzo finished with the same about of RBIs as Judge while hitting 22 fewer HRs and having 15 fewer hits. That Season compared ... Alonso 210 PA with RISP (+57) 355 PA with Men On (+49) Judge 153 PA with RISP 306 PA with Men On
Yep, Alonzo hit 3rd or 4th with players with good OBP hitting in front of him.
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Post by bomberhojoe on Jan 15, 2024 13:30:49 GMT -5
We’ve discussed Jeter’s defense at length on here many times. The consensus is generally that he did a lot of things well that aren’t graded for as much value as some of the things he didn’t do well and that he wasn’t hurting the team with his glove. Maybe that’s because we’re all fanboys here, but the image of the worst shortstop in MLB history just doesn’t ring true… Jeter was a prolific singles hitter and a solid shortstop. He was not a bad shortstop, nor was he great. Most Yankee fans probably make him out to be better than he was. However, no one can deny in a big spot there were few better them him, ever. |
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