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Post by rizzuto on Jan 15, 2024 13:49:08 GMT -5
Hey everyone, Got into a debate with a friend of mine regarding Jeter's defense. He was never a great defender at SS, but, by his standards, he's had better defensive years during certain periods in his career than other periods. I believe his best defensive years at SS came during 1996-2000 just based on the fact that his age, athleticism, range, first step, and arm were at their peak around those years as those are key factors for a SS to be viable defensively. However, my friend believes he was a better defender post-2000 given he became a smarter defender and got more experience although his physical traits were on the decline. Metrics wise, Jeter was one of the worst defenders from post-2004. Eye test included. I don't see how he was a better defender after 2000 as opposed to 1996-2000. Interested in what you guys believe. There is a popular story that Brian Cashman had serious issues with Jeter's defense at SS and after the 2007 season told him that he had to improve or change positions. The story goes that Jeter took dance lessions, practiced plyometrics or did something to improve in the years that followed. I do not know if any of that is true but it did get reported. Actually Derek Jeter spoke about the conversation himself. When presented with data over the prior several seasons that he needed to improve his quickness and range, Jeter asked, "So you knew this was a problem for multiple seasons? Why didn't you tell me sooner, I could have been working on this all along?" Jeter worked all off-season on his first step, positioning, flexibility, and explosion, which led to his first Gold Glove Award. Along with Jeter's strength in going back on pop ups and short outfield fly balls, Don Zimmer stated that Jeter was the best he ever saw at coming in on slow rollers and making the play. That is saying something, as Zim only had about 70 years of experience watching MLB up close. Moverover, Jeter was quite adept at going to his right and making the play in the hole - not the best but certainly adequately league average. Where Jeter always had a problem was going to his left, on grounders toward second base. For some reason, Jeter did not see the ball or react to the ball as quickly to his glove hand side. Secondly, when Jeter would dive to his left, he would never completely extend his glove arm, leading to a bent elbow and shortening his 6'3" frame. Also, on the dive, Jeter's throwing hand would touch the dirt prior to his body, increasing sliding friction and further decreasing his reach. I have written about this numerous times with our more tenured denizens on this and other forums. Most pundits do not speak about the little things defensively at which Jeter excelled. Any throw from the catcher or shovel from the second baseman, Jeter was money, snagging errant throws and tosses, while still having the athletic ability to make the play. I used to berate Didi and Castro for always ending up on their butts on slides into second, poor throws from the catcher, and awkward plays. Jeter had footwork and the balance to keep his feet and still get the out. In and around the bag, Jeter was as proficient as anyone. Lastly, something that few discuss is that as a shortstop, the centerfielders playing behind Jeter were not blessed with even average arms (Bernie and Damon, most notably). Meaning, Jeter often ranged farther to receive outfield throws, yet still had the arm strength and accuracy to relay home successfully. Jeter's awareness hid those outfield weaknesses for years. I never bought the "worst defensive shortstop in MLB" argument, and we have seen - even with the advance of AI - defensive metrics have improved since 30 years ago, but they still are a work in progress. DRS and OAA often do not coincide in their results for the best and worst fielders, even today. In short, Jeter had one glaring weakness defensively, to his left, which unfortunately usually results in the bulk of the defensive opportunities for a shortstop.
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Post by qimqam on Jan 15, 2024 13:53:41 GMT -5
We’ve discussed Jeter’s defense at length on here many times. The consensus is generally that he did a lot of things well that aren’t graded for as much value as some of the things he didn’t do well and that he wasn’t hurting the team with his glove. Maybe that’s because we’re all fanboys here, but the image of the worst shortstop in MLB history just doesn’t ring true… Jeter was a prolific singles hitter and a solid shortstop. He was not a bad shortstop, nor was he great. Most Yankee fans probably make him out to be better than he was. However, no one can deny in a big spot there were few better them him, ever. He wasnt exactly a single hitter ... And we dont make him out to be better than he was ... He was a solid fielder, but all around great player! 1st ballot HoFer. Perenial MVP candidate, GG , SS and Top 5 SS in MLB history
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Post by rizzuto on Jan 15, 2024 14:03:16 GMT -5
We’ve discussed Jeter’s defense at length on here many times. The consensus is generally that he did a lot of things well that aren’t graded for as much value as some of the things he didn’t do well and that he wasn’t hurting the team with his glove. Maybe that’s because we’re all fanboys here, but the image of the worst shortstop in MLB history just doesn’t ring true… Jeter was a prolific singles hitter and a solid shortstop. He was not a bad shortstop, nor was he great. Most Yankee fans probably make him out to be better than he was. However, no one can deny in a big spot there were few better them him, ever. Jeter also had 544 doubles and 260 home runs in a ball park not made to benefit right-handed hitters, so not exactly Ozzie Smith offensively. Also, Jeter batted primarily as a leadoff hitter and a number two-hole hitter, at a time when he was expected to get on base and move over the runner. Jeter understood his role with O'Neill and Bernie hitting behind him.
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Post by bomberhojoe on Jan 15, 2024 14:41:14 GMT -5
Jeter was a prolific singles hitter and a solid shortstop. He was not a bad shortstop, nor was he great. Most Yankee fans probably make him out to be better than he was. However, no one can deny in a big spot there were few better them him, ever. He wasnt exactly a single hitter ... And we dont make him out to be better than he was ... He was a solid fielder, but all around great player! 1st ballot HoFer. Perenial MVP candidate, GG , SS and Top 5 SS in MLB history He had 2600 singles in his career, that's prolific in my opinion. He was a good, not great fielder, but made the plays he had too, especially in the big spot. I never wrote he wasn't among the best shortstop of all time. What number on the list of best is subjective, and probably depends on how much weight you give defense.
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Post by inger on Jan 15, 2024 16:04:38 GMT -5
Jeter was a prolific singles hitter and a solid shortstop. He was not a bad shortstop, nor was he great. Most Yankee fans probably make him out to be better than he was. However, no one can deny in a big spot there were few better them him, ever. Jeter also had 544 doubles and 260 home runs in a ball park not made to benefit right-handed hitters, so not exactly Ozzie Smith offensively. Also, Jeter batted primarily as a leadoff hitter and a number two-hole hitter, at a time when he was expected to get on base and move over the runner. Jeter understood his role with O'Neill and Bernie hitting behind him. Jeter’s home/road splits show him to have slightly better numbers, including HR rate at home. He didn’t seem to care where he was playing…
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Post by fwclipper51 on Jan 15, 2024 17:14:37 GMT -5
Former Yankees Minor League INF Coach Brian Butterfield worked hard with Derek Jeter to help him to learn how to play shortstop. The Yankees were concerned with Jeter's errors numbers in the Minors. He worked with him on his footwork and positioning.
Clipper
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