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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 23, 2024 10:37:00 GMT -5
ypaterson, I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I absolutely believe that Mussina deserves to be in the HOF. I was simply pointing out that he got there through years of sustained excellence, consistently ranking among the pitching leaders, rather than in actually leading the league in key pitching categories, which he did not do by HOF standards (although far above the standards of most pitchers.) Black ink measures how many times a player led the league in any significant statistical category. Gray ink measures how many times a player finished in the top ten in those categories. Pretty reasonable stat I think. We can compare Mussina not to pitchers from different eras, but with pitchers who were contemporaries. In this case I only looked at pitchers whose career overlapped with his for at least ten years. First number is black ink, second is gray ink. Mussina -- 15; 250 Randy Johnson -- 99; 280 Greg Maddux -- 87; 336 Pedro Martinez -- 58; 215 Roy Halladay -- 48; 180 Curt Schilling -- 42; 205 John Smoltz -- 34; 199 Tom Glavine -- 29; 202 David Cone -- 19; 168 I didn't include Roger Clemens for obvious reasons, but for the record his numbers were an insane 100; 320. So what this shows is that Mussina's great virtue was not that he racked up a lot of league-leading numbers, but that other than Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux -- two of the greatest pitchers in baseball history -- he was a dominant presence on the overall leaderboard. Pretty great achievement in my book. You mentioned Cy Young voting, a reasonable measure as well. Here Mussina does not stand up as well as his top contemporaries. Here's the list of career CYA shares for some of these guys: Johnson -- 6.50 Maddux -- 4.92 Martinez -- 4.26 Halladay -- 3.50 Glavine -- 3.15 Schilling -- 1.85 Cone -- 1.38 Smoltz -- 1.19 Mussina -- 0.92 Again for the record the disqualified Clemens was at 7.66, highest in baseball history. I just put these numbers up so you can see where I'm coming from when I say that Mike Mussina's great achievement was in being such a presence year in and year out among the best rather than in having a few boffo seasons and then falling off a cliff. We are in total agreement that he was a great pitcher who deserves to be in Cooperstown. I reviewed your posts and admit I misinterpreted your message. I reacted to the appearance of the word compiler. Often the word carries a pejorative sense which you clearly did not intend. We agree that Mussina deserved recognition as a HOF pitcher. And we agree that comparisons are best made against a player's peers. Mussina had peak seasons that deserve to be remembered along with a long productive career. Regarding he CY Shares, Mussina finished behind great relievers, Eckersley and Rivera, and relievers who had great years. Without diminishing their importance to the game, they played a different "position'. I concede that Mussina was not the the very best of his era but he was elite, not merely someone who stuck around long enough to accumulate stats. Well put ypaterson. I certainly wouldn't consider Mussina a guy who just hung around to pad his numbers. Maybe I should have been more precise about that in my original post. Anyway we're on the same side here my friend. I need to check the numbers, but I don't think we'll be seeing any more pitchers, with the possible exception of Justin Verlander, who will win as many 270 games as Mike Mussina did. Of course when Early Wynn won his 300th game in 1963, he proclaimed that he would be the last to do it, and that certainly didn't turn out to be the case, so who knows?
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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 23, 2024 10:45:26 GMT -5
Okay I checked. Verlander has 262 wins, so even though he'll be 42 next year he should make 270. Next is Scherzer with 216 at age 39 (40 next year) and Kershaw with 212 at age 36, but those guys are constantly getting injured these days and I can't see them getting there. Then you drop down to Gerrit Cole with 153 at age 33. He may well be the last pitcher to ever win 200 games, but 270 seems like a real stretch the way the game is played now.
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Post by rizzuto on Oct 23, 2024 12:14:52 GMT -5
Okay I checked. Verlander has 262 wins, so even though he'll be 42 next year he should make 270. Next is Scherzer with 216 at age 39 (40 next year) and Kershaw with 212 at age 36, but those guys are constantly getting injured these days and I can't see them getting there. Then you drop down to Gerrit Cole with 153 at age 33. He may well be the last pitcher to ever win 200 games, but 270 seems like a real stretch the way the game is played now. I’d like to see a reliever vulture 20 wins in a season, coming into the game for an inning and a third, after the starter is pulled with two outs in the fifth. The remainder of the bullpen logging two holds and a save. Why that prospect makes me happy, I can’t explain.
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Post by 1955nyyfan on Oct 23, 2024 12:37:11 GMT -5
Taking off my Yankee hat, I guess I'm the lone Rolen vote. I think they are fairly comparable but Nettles had the advantage of playing in the post season more which helped his reputation since he had some really remarkable performances. Overall though, Rolen has the higher WAR, OPS, BA. Nettles is known for his glove but so was Rolens who actually won more GGs and made more allstar appearences. He was also ROY. Nettles did hit more HRs. If Rolen would have played in pinstripes I bet we would have appreciated him as much as we do Nettles.
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Post by inger on Oct 23, 2024 12:40:46 GMT -5
Okay I checked. Verlander has 262 wins, so even though he'll be 42 next year he should make 270. Next is Scherzer with 216 at age 39 (40 next year) and Kershaw with 212 at age 36, but those guys are constantly getting injured these days and I can't see them getting there. Then you drop down to Gerrit Cole with 153 at age 33. He may well be the last pitcher to ever win 200 games, but 270 seems like a real stretch the way the game is played now. I’d like to see a reliever vulture 20 wins in a season, coming into the game for an inning and a third, after the starter is pulled with two outs in the fifth. The remainder of the bullpen logging two holds and a save. Why that prospect makes me happy, I can’t explain. Me too…
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Post by ypaterson on Oct 23, 2024 13:09:49 GMT -5
Okay I checked. Verlander has 262 wins, so even though he'll be 42 next year he should make 270. Next is Scherzer with 216 at age 39 (40 next year) and Kershaw with 212 at age 36, but those guys are constantly getting injured these days and I can't see them getting there. Then you drop down to Gerrit Cole with 153 at age 33. He may well be the last pitcher to ever win 200 games, but 270 seems like a real stretch the way the game is played now. There is long, detailed conversatiion waiting for us in the offseaon exploring how pitchers are deployed. The changes in baseball philosophy have had a major impact on win totals. Even an elite starter like Cole or Rodon is easily replaced in the 5th inning. In my youth that would have been the backpage headline of a New York tabloid ! I am not clear why today's pitchers cannot log more innings. Is it pitch selection ? A tighter strikezone ? The emphasis on veloity ? Spin rates ? Are hitters better prepared ? I do know that fewer and fewer pitchrs will approach the levels that starting pitchers once did. This season only 4 players logged at least 200 innings. A decase ago that number was 33. It is hard to get a win when you leave the game in 6th ! That gives us something to discuss.
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Post by ypaterson on Oct 23, 2024 13:14:53 GMT -5
Taking off my Yankee hat, I guess I'm the lone Rolen vote. I think they are fairly comparable but Nettles had the advantage of playing in the post season more which helped his reputation since he had some really remarkable performances. Overall though, Rolen has the higher WAR, OPS, BA. Nettles is known for his glove but so was Rolens who actually won more GGs and made more allstar appearences. He was also ROY. Nettles did hit more HRs. If Rolen would have played in pinstripes I bet we would have appreciated him as much as we do Nettles. I think the vulture is on the same endangered species list at the starter. It makes the highlight shows when a reliever is used for more than 3 outs today. The days of the Phil Regan and Lindy McDaniel are part of the scrapbook that doesn't get looked at very often.
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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 23, 2024 13:38:20 GMT -5
Okay I checked. Verlander has 262 wins, so even though he'll be 42 next year he should make 270. Next is Scherzer with 216 at age 39 (40 next year) and Kershaw with 212 at age 36, but those guys are constantly getting injured these days and I can't see them getting there. Then you drop down to Gerrit Cole with 153 at age 33. He may well be the last pitcher to ever win 200 games, but 270 seems like a real stretch the way the game is played now. There is long, detailed conversatiion waiting for us in the offseaon exploring how pitchers are deployed. The changes in baseball philosophy have had a major impact on win totals. Even an elite starter like Cole or Rodon is easily replaced in the 5th inning. In my youth that would have been the backpage headline of a New York tabloid ! I am not clear why today's pitchers cannot log more innings. Is it pitch selection ? A tighter strikezone ? The emphasis on veloity ? Spin rates ? Are hitters better prepared ? I do know that fewer and fewer pitchrs will approach the levels that starting pitchers once did. This season only 4 players logged at least 200 innings. A decase ago that number was 33. It is hard to get a win when you leave the game in 6th ! That gives us something to discuss. I'm always up for that conversation! The diminution of the role of the starting pitcher is one of my major complaints about the direction of the game. I suppose it's more "efficient" to have a starter go all-out for four or five innings (the number keeps dropping) and then cycle through four or five anonymous, nearly interchangeable flamethrowers most of whom will never be remembered by baseball fans. Go through 30 pitchers a year, 20 of them spend time on the IL. Even if this sad soulless formula is in some way more productive -- and I'm not certain it is since it results in being dependent on so many inferior pitchers being used -- it still drains the life out of an enormous component of the game. I'd much rather watch Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson dueling for nine innings than two bulk guys give three or four innings and then a procession of unknowns. I remember when it used to be considered an insult to call a guy a seven-inning pitcher.
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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 23, 2024 13:56:16 GMT -5
Okay I checked. Verlander has 262 wins, so even though he'll be 42 next year he should make 270. Next is Scherzer with 216 at age 39 (40 next year) and Kershaw with 212 at age 36, but those guys are constantly getting injured these days and I can't see them getting there. Then you drop down to Gerrit Cole with 153 at age 33. He may well be the last pitcher to ever win 200 games, but 270 seems like a real stretch the way the game is played now. I’d like to see a reliever vulture 20 wins in a season, coming into the game for an inning and a third, after the starter is pulled with two outs in the fifth. The remainder of the bullpen logging two holds and a save. Why that prospect makes me happy, I can’t explain. Funny you should bring that up Rizz. I had just been looking at some relief pitcher seasons. Roy Face -- still alive at age 96 -- still holds the record for relief wins in a season when he went 18-1 in 1959 for the Pirates. Ten of those wins came in extra innings. In three of his wins he allowed a go-ahead run in the top of an inning only to have the Pirates come back to win in the bottom of the inning. In his 57 appearances, he pitched at least two innings in 28 of them. The Pirates were only a 78-76 team that year, so in addition to pitching well he had some good timing. They also played well defensively behind him (his forkball plus Mazeroski and Groat up the middle) allowing only one unearned run in his appearances. The most decisions in relief was the 17-14 season John Hiller of the Tigers logged in 1974. That scarcely seems possible. Bill Campbell of the Twins also won 17 games in relief, going 17-5 in 1976. So maybe there is hope for your scenario in the age of the 14-out starter.
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Post by qwik3457bb on Oct 24, 2024 2:41:49 GMT -5
I hope I haven't killed this thread with the too-long analysis and answer. Standing O for that essay, qwik. Are you sure you're not Bill James? Has anyone ever seen the two of you at the same time? Just a few random comments since it's beyond my capacity to do an analysis like that. On the burning issue of Jimmy Collins -- from anything I have heard or read, he may get the Bresnahan exemption for changing the way the position was played. Renowned for his ability to charge bunts and slow rollers while smoothly pegging the runner out in one smooth motion -- apparently he was the first third sacker to do this consistently. I think he was almost universally regarded as the best third baseman of the deadball era. I knew a man who had seen him play and he talked about him the way my generation talked about Brooks Robinson. As a kid I had a book that sounded very similar to the one you called Baseball's Best. Except this would have been late 50s or early 60s. It had really good black and white portraits of the players, and on it's all-time team Pie Traynor was the third baseman, as he seemed to be for every list made almost until the 1970s. Hard to believe he was the first third baseman ever voted in by the BBWAA, and that not until the late 1940s. He held an awful lot of third base records both offensively and defensively pre-Mathews and pre-Brooks, so I have no problem with him being in Cooperstown even though his stock has fallen with the proliferation of great third basemen that really took off in the 70s. Like George Kell (who I agree is not HOF-worthy) and even to some extent the great Scooter himself (who is) he was greatly helped by being a popular broadcasting presence, in his case in Pittsburgh, starting during World War II and up through the 1960s. I'm still on the fence with Nettles. I agree with Chi that he's undervalued not just by the baseball intelligentsia but by the Yankees themselves, no doubt largely due to his prickly relationship with The Boss. I loved him as a player, but just among Yankees is he more deserving than the other "borderline" guys like Munson and Mattingly and Williams and Posada and Pettitte? Not to mention Charlie Keller, who should be at or near the top of that list. Concur on Schilling, whose exclusion seems to be almost entirely political. I'm not a fan and won't be at the front of the parade to put him in, but it seems obvious to me. Personally I'm a Dick Allen booster among the borderliners, but that's for another time. Anyhoo, top-notch research and thought piece. Thanks for the kind words, pipps. Regarding Collins' defensive play, I had not recalled that when I wrote about him. I pulled out my original edition of the The Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, and sure enough, James had written in detail about Collins' remarkable defense, especially on bunt plays. I had forgotten that about him, so thank you for reminding me. Likewise, I had confused Kell with Ernie Harwell, who was the long-time Tigers' play-by-play men on radio (actually, he and Kell worked in radio a few years, then Kell took a year off). Kell came back to the the Tigers' TV broadcaster for many years, while Harwell stayed on radio. The long time Pirates radio play by play men for almost all this period were Bob Prince, and after he retired, Lanny Frattere. As for the SBS book; it's possible we're both right. It might have been Baseball's Best when you were a kid and maybe mine was a later edition re-titled The Best in Baseball. But it did have black-and-white portraits of the players, just like yours did. Or maybe I'm remembering the title incorrectly.
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Post by qwik3457bb on Oct 24, 2024 2:45:28 GMT -5
If I remember correctly the Yankees were down in the series 2 games to 0. In my opinion, that world series game 3 was the first and only time that I have seen a player take away a team's momentum with his fielding. You are correct, Max. Game 2 was the game Reggie had the great battle and lost to Bob Welch, who struck him out on the 9th pitch to end the game with the tying and go-ahead runs on base in the 9th.
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Post by qwik3457bb on Oct 24, 2024 4:24:11 GMT -5
There is long, detailed conversatiion waiting for us in the offseaon exploring how pitchers are deployed. The changes in baseball philosophy have had a major impact on win totals. Even an elite starter like Cole or Rodon is easily replaced in the 5th inning. In my youth that would have been the backpage headline of a New York tabloid ! I am not clear why today's pitchers cannot log more innings. Is it pitch selection ? A tighter strikezone ? The emphasis on veloity ? Spin rates ? Are hitters better prepared ? I do know that fewer and fewer pitchrs will approach the levels that starting pitchers once did. This season only 4 players logged at least 200 innings. A decase ago that number was 33. It is hard to get a win when you leave the game in 6th ! That gives us something to discuss. I'm always up for that conversation! The diminution of the role of the starting pitcher is one of my major complaints about the direction of the game. I suppose it's more "efficient" to have a starter go all-out for four or five innings (the number keeps dropping) and then cycle through four or five anonymous, nearly interchangeable flamethrowers most of whom will never be remembered by baseball fans. Go through 30 pitchers a year, 20 of them spend time on the IL. Even if this sad soulless formula is in some way more productive -- and I'm not certain it is since it results in being dependent on so many inferior pitchers being used -- it still drains the life out of an enormous component of the game. I'd much rather watch Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson dueling for nine innings than two bulk guys give three or four innings and then a procession of unknowns. I remember when it used to be considered an insult to call a guy a seven-inning pitcher. In my opinion, the trend IS caused by the desire for efficiency, fewer runs allowed for the game, and fewer big HRs. The mechanism forcing this most recent drop in complete games was the swing-angle change trend that began 10 years ago or so with players like Justin Turner turning their careers around. Hitters started swinging for power with every swing, and with the decline of PED use, home-run hitting and strikeouts increased again. The overall trend since almost the beginning of major league baseball that starters have gone from complete games in almost every start, to maybe 10 or 20 complete games, total, in a season in each league, accelerated. Even in the 1990's, league leaders in complete games regularly pitched 10-15 complete games in a season. The hitting explosion due to PED use knocked those leaders in the 5-9 range in the 2000s, but PEDs were taken out of the game, and the swing-angle change put the power back in. Pitchers and pitching coaches found a game-wrecking HR could now occur on any at bat. Their counter-move was to train pitchers to throw as hard as they could for as long as they could and increase spin and movement on breaking pitches and fastballs, to prevent the barreling contact that created the big home runs. This put significantly more strain on the pitching arm. Aside from causing the avalanche in arm injuries, (because pitching arms, even well-trained ones, weren't meant to the throw that hard on every fastball), because of the constant threat of the big HR, most pitchers couldn't afford to save some stuff for a pinch and most terms agreed with this strategic adjustment. Pitchers with naturally elite stuff, like Verlander could afford to pitch that way, but most starters couldn't. Cole learned to save top fastball velocity for critical spots from Verlander, and has tried to teach it to Rondon this year with some success. But unlike decades long past, saving stuff for the key situations is for getting through the 6th and the 7th, and not the 8th and 9th, as Christy Mathewson described in some detail in his book on pitching, Pitching in a Pinch. In order to squeeze 13 pitchers (including 8 relievers) onto a pitching staff, teams have chosen to go to rosters with multiple players who can play multiple positions rather than a fixed lineup and 5-6 bench players with specific roles. This gives them enough relievers to have a chance of soaking up the extra innings from an average start of 5.2 innings. (That's 5.2, not 5 2/3 innings.) Each pitch has become that much more important, and that requires pitchers to throw harder, with sharper breaking stuff, and also to try to learn to throw and command 5, 6, 7, and 8 pitches instead of 3 or 4, as they used to when we were younger. Back then, a 5-pitch assortment was thought to be too big a variety; pitchers didn't wat to get beat on their 4th- or 5th-best, much less a 7th- or 8th-best. So a lot of starters aren't trained to face a batting order a 3rd time with sufficiently good stuff to not get clobbered and knocked out. And if 7 innings is considered a "deep start" nowadays, and needs usually 2 relievers to close it out, then it follows that complete games are a near-impossibility. And so they are, the last 5 years or so. 1 or 2 complete games have becomes the yearly league-leading total, and the only place left to go to is absolute zero.
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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 24, 2024 9:16:38 GMT -5
I'm always up for that conversation! The diminution of the role of the starting pitcher is one of my major complaints about the direction of the game. I suppose it's more "efficient" to have a starter go all-out for four or five innings (the number keeps dropping) and then cycle through four or five anonymous, nearly interchangeable flamethrowers most of whom will never be remembered by baseball fans. Go through 30 pitchers a year, 20 of them spend time on the IL. Even if this sad soulless formula is in some way more productive -- and I'm not certain it is since it results in being dependent on so many inferior pitchers being used -- it still drains the life out of an enormous component of the game. I'd much rather watch Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson dueling for nine innings than two bulk guys give three or four innings and then a procession of unknowns. I remember when it used to be considered an insult to call a guy a seven-inning pitcher. In my opinion, the trend IS caused by the desire for efficiency, fewer runs allowed for the game, and fewer big HRs. The mechanism forcing this most recent drop in complete games was the swing-angle change trend that began 10 years ago or so with players like Justin Turner turning their careers around. Hitters started swinging for power with every swing, and with the decline of PED use, home-run hitting and strikeouts increased again. The overall trend since almost the beginning of major league baseball that starters have gone from complete games in almost every start, to maybe 10 or 20 complete games, total, in a season in each league, accelerated. Even in the 1990's, league leaders in complete games regularly pitched 10-15 complete games in a season. The hitting explosion due to PED use knocked those leaders in the 5-9 range in the 2000s, but PEDs were taken out of the game, and the swing-angle change put the power back in. Pitchers and pitching coaches found a game-wrecking HR could now occur on any at bat. Their counter-move was to train pitchers to throw as hard as they could for as long as they could and increase spin and movement on breaking pitches and fastballs, to prevent the barreling contact that created the big home runs. This put significantly more strain on the pitching arm. Aside from causing the avalanche in arm injuries, (because pitching arms, even well-trained ones, weren't meant to the throw that hard on every fastball), because of the constant threat of the big HR, most pitchers couldn't afford to save some stuff for a pinch and most terms agreed with this strategic adjustment. Pitchers with naturally elite stuff, like Verlander could afford to pitch that was, but most starters couldn't. Cole learned to save top fastball velocity for critical spots from Verlander, and has tried to teach it to Rondon this year with some success. But unlike decades long past, saving stuff for the key situations is for getting through the 6th and the 7th, and not the 8th and 9th, as Christy Mathewson described in some detail in his book on pitching, Pitching in a Pinch. In order to squeeze 13 pitchers (including 8 relievers) onto a pitching staff, teams have chosen to go to rosters with multiple players who can play multiple positions rather than a fixed lineup and 5-6 bench players with specific roles. This gives them enough relievers to have a chance of soaking up the extra innings from an average start of 5.2 innings. (That's 5.2, not 5 2/3 innings.) Each pitch has become that much more important, and that requires pitchers to throw harder, with sharper breaking stuff, and also to try to learn to throw and command 5, 6, 7, and 8 pitches instead of 3 or 4, as they used to when we were younger. Back then, a 5-pitch assortment was thought to be too big a variety; pitchers didn't wat to get beat on their 4th- or 5th-best, much less a 7th- or 8th-best. So a lot of starters aren't trained to face a batting order a 3rd time with sufficiently good stuff to not get clobbered and knocked out. And if 7 innings is considered a "deep start" nowadays, and needs usually 2 relievers to close it out, then it follows that complete games are a near-impossibility. And so they are, the last 5 years or so. 1 or 2 complete games have becomes the yearly league-leading total, and the only place left to go to is absolute zero. I think if managers had their way, rosters would expand to 30 players, with 18 of them pitchers who ideally would pitch one inning every other day. Adding in the AAA shuttle, you could go through another 18 over the course of the season, and nobody would ever pitch over 50 innings a year. That's undoubtedly a slight exaggeration, but the game is moving that way. Glad you brought up "Pitching In A Pitch." I love that book. I used to have an old hard copy of it, unfortunately destroyed in a flood, but I did get a more recent paperback edition. In addition to the McGraw/Merkle/Tinker to Evers to Chance anecdotes, that part about saving your best stuff for late in the game always stuck with me. I'm sure you are a Matty admirer as I am. Of course in the deadball era it was much easier to conserve your arm. Mathewson peaked at 390 innings in 1908, when he was 27 years old. Still, his out pitch was the fadeaway (screwball) which puts tremendous stress on the arm. So he navigated through that somehow. He is also one of the few right-handed scroogie devotees. The prominent ones I think of -- Carl Hubbel, Warren Spahn, Mike Cuellar, Mike Marshall, Tug McGraw, Willie Hernandez, Fernando Valenzuela -- are all southpaws. And actually all pretty durable despite the unnatural motion.
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Post by inger on Oct 24, 2024 9:28:34 GMT -5
Today’s game is primarily based on “handedness”. It’s actually sort of simple…
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Post by bomberhojoe on Oct 24, 2024 10:02:46 GMT -5
We could add Ken Boyer to this discussion, as well… 3B: Ken Boyer Boyer gets a lot of love from Cardinals fans and old-timers, as he was a solid team player, with a career WAR of 62.8 and a WAR7 of 39.0. He won an MVP in 1964 and was known for his defense, hard nose play and leadership. However, his production fell off the proverbial cliff after the age of 33. His offensive numbers (OPS+ 116) and overall career length don’t quite match up to the all-time greats at third base, particularly among his contemporaries like Ron Santo and Brooks Robinson, which hurts his candidacy. More Deserving 3B: Graig Nettles With Scott Rolen’s recent enshrinement, Nettles moves into the role of most deserving third baseman. Nettles won only two Gold Gloves, despite a career a dWAR of 21.4, making him one of the best defensive third basemen of his era. His defense was overshadowed by Brooks Robinson earlier in his career, then later Buddy Bell and Mike Schmidt, who took home the gold virtually every other year. Most voters point to his low career batting average of .248, while ignoring his power and patience. He has a comparable dWAR (21.4 to 21.2), overall WAR (67.9 to 70.5) and JAWS (55.1 to 56.9) to Rolen. His 390 HR (6th among all 3B), WAR/162 (4.6) and WAR7 (41.1) reflect a player who was highly valuable over a longer period than either Boyer or Rolen. Nettles’ combination of power, defense, and contributions to multiple Yankees championships make him a more deserving Hall of Fame candidate than Boyer. Brooks Robinson said in an interview that Nettles should have won 4 or 5 Gold Gloves over him, but his reputation got him the nods.
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