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Post by 1955nyyfan on Oct 24, 2024 10:12:34 GMT -5
I liked Nettles as a ballplayer but wonder if his longevity might have hurt his overall chances. He played until he was 42 and his last 4 or 5 seasons weren't very good.
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Post by ypaterson on Oct 24, 2024 10:57:56 GMT -5
Until Jake Gibbs gets serious love from the Vets Committee, the best player not in the HOF is going to be terrific ballplayer. Whether that someone is Nettles, Whitaker, Allen or any other candidate, there going to be upset fans. Someone is always upset after an election.
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Post by rizzuto on Oct 24, 2024 12:05:14 GMT -5
Today’s game is primarily based on “handedness”. It’s actually sort of simple… I’m not big on these high handed people.
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Post by rizzuto on Oct 24, 2024 12:11:52 GMT -5
In my opinion, the trend IS caused by the desire for efficiency, fewer runs allowed for the game, and fewer big HRs. The mechanism forcing this most recent drop in complete games was the swing-angle change trend that began 10 years ago or so with players like Justin Turner turning their careers around. Hitters started swinging for power with every swing, and with the decline of PED use, home-run hitting and strikeouts increased again. The overall trend since almost the beginning of major league baseball that starters have gone from complete games in almost every start, to maybe 10 or 20 complete games, total, in a season in each league, accelerated. Even in the 1990's, league leaders in complete games regularly pitched 10-15 complete games in a season. The hitting explosion due to PED use knocked those leaders in the 5-9 range in the 2000s, but PEDs were taken out of the game, and the swing-angle change put the power back in. Pitchers and pitching coaches found a game-wrecking HR could now occur on any at bat. Their counter-move was to train pitchers to throw as hard as they could for as long as they could and increase spin and movement on breaking pitches and fastballs, to prevent the barreling contact that created the big home runs. This put significantly more strain on the pitching arm. Aside from causing the avalanche in arm injuries, (because pitching arms, even well-trained ones, weren't meant to the throw that hard on every fastball), because of the constant threat of the big HR, most pitchers couldn't afford to save some stuff for a pinch and most terms agreed with this strategic adjustment. Pitchers with naturally elite stuff, like Verlander could afford to pitch that was, but most starters couldn't. Cole learned to save top fastball velocity for critical spots from Verlander, and has tried to teach it to Rondon this year with some success. But unlike decades long past, saving stuff for the key situations is for getting through the 6th and the 7th, and not the 8th and 9th, as Christy Mathewson described in some detail in his book on pitching, Pitching in a Pinch. In order to squeeze 13 pitchers (including 8 relievers) onto a pitching staff, teams have chosen to go to rosters with multiple players who can play multiple positions rather than a fixed lineup and 5-6 bench players with specific roles. This gives them enough relievers to have a chance of soaking up the extra innings from an average start of 5.2 innings. (That's 5.2, not 5 2/3 innings.) Each pitch has become that much more important, and that requires pitchers to throw harder, with sharper breaking stuff, and also to try to learn to throw and command 5, 6, 7, and 8 pitches instead of 3 or 4, as they used to when we were younger. Back then, a 5-pitch assortment was thought to be too big a variety; pitchers didn't wat to get beat on their 4th- or 5th-best, much less a 7th- or 8th-best. So a lot of starters aren't trained to face a batting order a 3rd time with sufficiently good stuff to not get clobbered and knocked out. And if 7 innings is considered a "deep start" nowadays, and needs usually 2 relievers to close it out, then it follows that complete games are a near-impossibility. And so they are, the last 5 years or so. 1 or 2 complete games have becomes the yearly league-leading total, and the only place left to go to is absolute zero. I think if managers had their way, rosters would expand to 30 players, with 18 of them pitchers who ideally would pitch one inning every other day. Adding in the AAA shuttle, you could go through another 18 over the course of the season, and nobody would ever pitch over 50 innings a year. That's undoubtedly a slight exaggeration, but the game is moving that way. Glad you brought up "Pitching In A Pitch." I love that book. I used to have an old hard copy of it, unfortunately destroyed in a flood, but I did get a more recent paperback edition. In addition to the McGraw/Merkle/Tinker to Evers to Chance anecdotes, that part about saving your best stuff for late in the game always stuck with me. I'm sure you are a Matty admirer as I am. Of course in the deadball era it was much easier to conserve your arm. Mathewson peaked at 390 innings in 1908, when he was 27 years old. Still, his out pitch was the fadeaway (screwball) which puts tremendous stress on the arm. So he navigated through that somehow. He is also one of the few right-handed scroogie devotees. The prominent ones I think of -- Carl Hubbel, Warren Spahn, Mike Cuellar, Mike Marshall, Tug McGraw, Willie Hernandez, Fernando Valenzuela -- are all southpaws. And actually all pretty durable despite the unnatural motion. Occasionally, the motion may not feel unnatural. My oldest brother left the Service when I was 13. Our first ever time playing catch, he said, “Who taught you a screwball?” My knowledgeable reply was “What’s a screwball?” He told me my ball was moving down and to his left. I was just throwing naturally. Maybe it was akin to a two-seamer or sinker, in to righties and away from lefties. It felt effortless to me.
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Post by inger on Oct 24, 2024 12:56:42 GMT -5
I think if managers had their way, rosters would expand to 30 players, with 18 of them pitchers who ideally would pitch one inning every other day. Adding in the AAA shuttle, you could go through another 18 over the course of the season, and nobody would ever pitch over 50 innings a year. That's undoubtedly a slight exaggeration, but the game is moving that way. Glad you brought up "Pitching In A Pitch." I love that book. I used to have an old hard copy of it, unfortunately destroyed in a flood, but I did get a more recent paperback edition. In addition to the McGraw/Merkle/Tinker to Evers to Chance anecdotes, that part about saving your best stuff for late in the game always stuck with me. I'm sure you are a Matty admirer as I am. Of course in the deadball era it was much easier to conserve your arm. Mathewson peaked at 390 innings in 1908, when he was 27 years old. Still, his out pitch was the fadeaway (screwball) which puts tremendous stress on the arm. So he navigated through that somehow. He is also one of the few right-handed scroogie devotees. The prominent ones I think of -- Carl Hubbel, Warren Spahn, Mike Cuellar, Mike Marshall, Tug McGraw, Willie Hernandez, Fernando Valenzuela -- are all southpaws. And actually all pretty durable despite the unnatural motion. Occasionally, the motion may not feel unnatural. My oldest brother left the Service when I was 13. Our first ever time playing catch, he said, “Who taught you a screwball?” My knowledgeable reply was “What’s a screwball?” He told me my ball was moving down and to his left. I was just throwing naturally. Maybe it was akin to a two-seamer or sinker, in to righties and away from lefties. It felt effortless to me. It must be something to do with the way your wrist is connected. Sort of the same as when a bowler throws a back up ball…
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Post by pippsheadache on Oct 24, 2024 13:03:19 GMT -5
Until Jake Gibbs gets serious love from the Vets Committee, the best player not in the HOF is going to be terrific ballplayer. Whether that someone is Nettles, Whitaker, Allen or any other candidate, there going to be upset fans. Someone is always upset after an election. Let's not leave Doc Edwards out of the conversation. By Whitaker I assume you mean Steve Whitaker.😉
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Post by ypaterson on Oct 24, 2024 14:10:24 GMT -5
Until Jake Gibbs gets serious love from the Vets Committee, the best player not in the HOF is going to be terrific ballplayer. Whether that someone is Nettles, Whitaker, Allen or any other candidate, there going to be upset fans. Someone is always upset after an election. Let's not leave Doc Edwards out of the conversation. By Whitaker I assume you mean Steve Whitaker.😉 Was there another ?
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Post by azbob643 on Oct 24, 2024 15:09:53 GMT -5
Occasionally, the motion may not feel unnatural. My oldest brother left the Service when I was 13. Our first ever time playing catch, he said, “Who taught you a screwball?” My knowledgeable reply was “What’s a screwball?” He told me my ball was moving down and to his left. I was just throwing naturally. Maybe it was akin to a two-seamer or sinker, in to righties and away from lefties. It felt effortless to me. It must be something to do with the way your wrist is connected. Sort of the same as when a bowler throws a back up ball… Yup. I asked my grandson if any of the guys he trained with threw a screwball. He looked at me like I was, well...a screwball. As you said, it has more to do with how the wrist is turned when released than the grip, so a 2 seam fastball or even a changeup grip can move like what I would call a screwball...they just don't call it that. I see it all the time, when a RH pitcher throws a ball that breaks in on a RH batter that is, to me, a screwball.
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Post by qwik3457bb on Oct 24, 2024 18:33:40 GMT -5
We could add Ken Boyer to this discussion, as well… 3B: Ken Boyer Boyer gets a lot of love from Cardinals fans and old-timers, as he was a solid team player, with a career WAR of 62.8 and a WAR7 of 39.0. He won an MVP in 1964 and was known for his defense, hard nose play and leadership. However, his production fell off the proverbial cliff after the age of 33. His offensive numbers (OPS+ 116) and overall career length don’t quite match up to the all-time greats at third base, particularly among his contemporaries like Ron Santo and Brooks Robinson, which hurts his candidacy. More Deserving 3B: Graig Nettles With Scott Rolen’s recent enshrinement, Nettles moves into the role of most deserving third baseman. Nettles won only two Gold Gloves, despite a career a dWAR of 21.4, making him one of the best defensive third basemen of his era. His defense was overshadowed by Brooks Robinson earlier in his career, then later Buddy Bell and Mike Schmidt, who took home the gold virtually every other year. Most voters point to his low career batting average of .248, while ignoring his power and patience. He has a comparable dWAR (21.4 to 21.2), overall WAR (67.9 to 70.5) and JAWS (55.1 to 56.9) to Rolen. His 390 HR (6th among all 3B), WAR/162 (4.6) and WAR7 (41.1) reflect a player who was highly valuable over a longer period than either Boyer or Rolen. Nettles’ combination of power, defense, and contributions to multiple Yankees championships make him a more deserving Hall of Fame candidate than Boyer. Brooks Robinson said in an interview that Nettles should have won 4 or 5 Gold Gloves over him, but his reputation got him the nods. That seems likely, bomberhojoe; Nettles "metrics" such as they were, in the early 70's, pretty much prove he was the best in the AL in that era. He might well have deserved every, or nearly every, AL Gold Glove at 3rd from 1971 through 1978. But Brooks' unbelievable performance in the 1970 World Series cemented his reputation as the greatest defensive 3rd baseman ever, and without metrics to challenge that reputation, got Brooks the Gold from 1971 through 1975.
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Post by qwik3457bb on Oct 24, 2024 18:40:29 GMT -5
I liked Nettles as a ballplayer but wonder if his longevity might have hurt his overall chances. He played until he was 42 and his last 4 or 5 seasons weren't very good. It might have played a small role; those year dropped his career BAVG under .250. But he was good enough to play regularly until age 41, even had a 3.3 bWAR season at age 40, and made his last All-Star team. Except for short relievers, some of whom can pitch forever, the ability to play in the major for 20 years is a sign of quality. I can't think of any position players or starting pitchers who weren't at least very good at some point in their career who've lasted 20 seasons. Rich Hill, maybe, who barely got to 20 this year with all of 3 2/3 innings.
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Post by Max on Oct 25, 2024 11:21:33 GMT -5
Brooks Robinson said in an interview that Nettles should have won 4 or 5 Gold Gloves over him, but his reputation got him the nods. That seems likely, bomberhojoe; Nettles "metrics" such as they were, in the early 70's, pretty much prove he was the best in the AL in that era. He might well have deserved every, or nearly every, AL Gold Glove at 3rd from 1971 through 1978. But Brooks' unbelievable performance in the 1970 World Series cemented his reputation as the greatest defensive 3rd baseman ever, and without metrics to challenge that reputation, got Brooks the Gold from 1971 through 1975. Yep, Nettles was excellent. Buddy Bell was a good fielder too. So was Aurelio Rodríguez. In my opinion, Aurelio Rodríguez had the best arm of any 3Bman that I can remember.
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Post by qwik3457bb on Oct 25, 2024 11:34:52 GMT -5
That seems likely, bomberhojoe; Nettles "metrics" such as they were, in the early 70's, pretty much prove he was the best in the AL in that era. He might well have deserved every, or nearly every, AL Gold Glove at 3rd from 1971 through 1978. But Brooks' unbelievable performance in the 1970 World Series cemented his reputation as the greatest defensive 3rd baseman ever, and without metrics to challenge that reputation, got Brooks the Gold from 1971 through 1975. Yep, Nettles was excellent. Buddy Bell was a good fielder too. So was Aurelio Rodríguez. In my opinion, Aurelio Rodríguez had the best arm of any 3Bman that I can remember. You're absolutely right about both Bell and Rodriguez. Aurelio even played for the Yanks, briefly, near the end of his career.
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Post by Max on Oct 25, 2024 11:35:13 GMT -5
It must be something to do with the way your wrist is connected. Sort of the same as when a bowler throws a back up ball… Yup. I asked my grandson if any of the guys he trained with threw a screwball. He looked at me like I was, well...a screwball. As you said, it has more to do with how the wrist is turned when released than the grip, so a 2 seam fastball or even a changeup grip can move like what I would call a screwball...they just don't call it that. I see it all the time, when a RH pitcher throws a ball that breaks in on a RH batter that is, to me, a screwball. I call that pitch a screwball too. Growing up I only threw a screwball to one player. He was a tough lefty hitter, I nicknamed him "inning" because even when I got him to make an out he would foul off so many pitches that I felt like pitching to him was like I pitched a full inning. That was until I started throwing him a hard screwball and nothing else, after that he was an average hitter. But at that speed, and gripping it like a slider, throwing a screwball just a few times would cause some pain in my elbow. I wouldn't know, but I guess maybe with a change up grip it's less stressful on a pitcher's arm?
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Post by Max on Oct 25, 2024 11:39:48 GMT -5
Yep, Nettles was excellent. Buddy Bell was a good fielder too. So was Aurelio Rodríguez. In my opinion, Aurelio Rodríguez had the best arm of any 3Bman that I can remember. You're absolutely right about both Bell and Rodriguez. Aurelio even played for the Yanks, briefly, near the end of his career. Yep, I remember an excellent play that he made while he was with the Yankees. A player put down what looked to me like a perfect bunt. Aurelio Rodríguez fielded the ball with his glove instead of bare-handing it. I thought to myself that he would never get the out at 1B, but he did because of his excellent arm.
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Post by bomberhojoe on Oct 25, 2024 11:40:54 GMT -5
Let's not leave Doc Edwards out of the conversation. By Whitaker I assume you mean Steve Whitaker.😉 Was there another ? What about ME?!?!?!
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