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Post by inger on Sept 11, 2018 0:34:50 GMT -5
So, she broke the rules, she got penalized. Now it's about her race and gender. What I saw on film may have been the eruption caused by previous exchanges, but it wasn't pretty, and the rules are quite clear that you are not allowed to be critical of the umpire during a match or you may suffer a penalty. I don't know enough about the history of tennis, and especially the recent history of tennis to know if it's as simple as what I saw, or if there is more to the story than what met the eye in a relatively brief clip I saw while home for lunch today. What I saw looked like poor sportsmanship by an aging and failing athlete when it became apparent that she is not back to being the world's greatest female tennis player. That would be frustrating, I'm sure, and especially so when she was stripped of her ranking and virtually dropped to the bottom of the ranking (again, the rules fair or not)...
I do think that you can take gender out of this, since she is playing against women. How does the discipline in another league affect the discipline in her league? If men's tennis let's anger slide (and I don't know if they do), then would two wrongs make a right if women's tennis followed suit? The race thing, well once again I don't know how many black women or men play the sport of tennis at a pro level, nor how they get treated, so I truly don't feel at all qualified to critique this claim. Any comments? Anybody even care???
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Post by utahyank on Sept 11, 2018 0:41:41 GMT -5
I haven't seen the event you reference....Serena and her sister have had magnificent careers, and have perhaps stayed too long in competition...I wish for them they had retired at the top, and would probably be recognized as all-time greats....I hope this incident does not mar their legacy...
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Post by inger on Sept 11, 2018 1:01:55 GMT -5
I'm with you on that, Utah. They were remarkable talents. Imagine sisters being the twin Tiger Woods of their sport. That's sort of how I saw them. Undefeatable, almost...They worked so hard for what they wanted and loved that they deserve all the credit in the world. I think if you watch the news and talk shows you'll see plenty of replays of this event in the next few days...Lots of controversy swirling because of the accusations of sexism and racism...I often think that racism and sexism are valid accusations, but also that there are times that if you are convinced that either one plays a common role in society, you may see it before it actually appears and can become the causation rather than the victim. The line is a fine one, and I have true pity for the real victims of such horrible crimes on mankind...(oh, and womankind, too Serena, wouldn't want to tick you off after what I saw today)...
(:
I still like to see the races and the sexes celebrate their differences rather than argue and fight over them. Maybe I'm not in a good position to understand, never having BEEN a minority, except perhaps in religion...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 8:54:24 GMT -5
Uh, guys. The reports of Serena’s demise are slightly premature. I’d hardly call making the finals of two straight grand slams after taking nearly a year off to have a child indicative of being a has been. 😎
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Post by Renfield on Sept 11, 2018 10:12:32 GMT -5
The sexism/gender bias allegation is based on the premise that a male player would not have received the penalties for saying the same things Serena said. Several men's players have chimed in to say that's true and they have said much worse and gotten no penalty. I am sure that MacEnroe, Conners and Nastase all said similar if not worse things and got away with it. They were somewhat celebrated as "bad boys." I didn't see the match or hear what Serena said, so I'll just leave it there. It also could just be that that particular umpire has a thin skin. And we've certainly seen referees and umpires like that in other sports!
On a somewhat related note, one of Serena's penalties, I believe, was for getting "coaching" during the match. Years ago I saw a pro women's tennis tournament in Nags Head and Jana Novotna (sp?) worked that angle in every match I saw. At that time, you got two warnings about coaching before a penalty was assessed (maybe the same now, don't know). Novotna got two warnings in every match she played that I saw. But never a third. She would also complain about balls the umpire called "in" and would angrily walk over to the spot where the ball had hit yelling that the ball was "out" and swing her racket brushing the spot to show where it was out. Of course, her racket had now left a scuff mark near where the ball had hit, so there was no way to tell if the ball had been in or out (the type of surface they were playing on would leave ball marks). However, later on, if a ball were clearly out, she would do the same thing, but without swinging her racket leaving the "proof" that the ump missed the call. She definitely worked the rules to her favor and operated under the theory that one should work the refs early and work them hard.
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Post by inger on Sept 11, 2018 10:22:35 GMT -5
The sexism/gender bias allegation is based on the premise that a male player would not have received the penalties for saying the same things Serena said. Several men's players have chimed in to say that's true and they have said much worse and gotten no penalty. I am sure that MacEnroe, Conners and Nastase all said similar if not worse things and got away with it. They were somewhat celebrated as "bad boys." I didn't see the match or hear what Serena said, so I'll just leave it there. It also could just be that that particular umpire has a thin skin. And we've certainly seen referees and umpires like that in other sports! On a somewhat related note, one of Serena's penalties, I believe, was for getting "coaching" during the match. Years ago I saw a pro women's tennis tournament in Nags Head and Jana Novotna (sp?) worked that angle in every match I saw. At that time, you got two warnings about coaching before a penalty was assessed (maybe the same now, don't know). Novotna got two warnings in every match she played that I saw. But never a third. She would also complain about balls the umpire called "in" and would angrily walk over to the spot where the ball had hit yelling that the ball was "out" and swing her racket brushing the spot to show where it was out. Of course, her racket had now left a scuff mark near where the ball had hit, so there was no way to tell if the ball had been in or out (the type of surface they were playing on would leave ball marks). However, later on, if a ball were clearly out, she would do the same thing, but without swinging her racket leaving the "proof" that the ump missed the call. She definitely worked the rules to her favor and operated under the theory that one should work the refs early and work them hard. In any event, it wasn't pretty, I assure you. At least what I saw...Discipline the men harder, don't lower the standards for the women. That's how I see it. I don't like baseball players showing up the umpires (or vice versa) either. Pouting little babies making millions to play a game at a high level...Behave with decorum, as we all must when at work... |
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Post by Renfield on Sept 11, 2018 18:03:10 GMT -5
I tend to agree, inger. Go find the statement by Martina Navratilova about this incident which I thought was right on the mark. Basically said there was in fact a double standard, but this missed the point--which was you shouldn't act like that as a professional tennis player, man or woman.
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Post by inger on Sept 11, 2018 19:25:58 GMT -5
I tend to agree, inger. Go find the statement by Martina Navratilova about this incident which I thought was right on the mark. Basically said there was in fact a double standard, but this missed the point--which was you shouldn't act like that as a professional tennis player, man or woman. Thanks. I’ll look that up. I’d take it a step further and say that you shouldn’t behave like that as a human being, especially when you’ve made millions and want to play the victim. Basically this was a fork with three tines: Kiss my ass because I’m GREAT Kiss my ass because I’m FEMALE (she said it, not me) Kiss my ass because I’m BLACK (she said this, too...not me) Oh the words may have been chosen differently, but to me the message was loud and clear. None of them were appropriate. I used to have admiration for her. She was and I’m sure she still remains a freak of nature. Now. I have to wonder a bit about PED usage, or growth hormones that may have done some damage to her mental/emotional state and wonder if that was the totality of her near Barry Bonds-like domination of her sport... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 4:23:09 GMT -5
Inger. Buddy. What evidence can you cite to support your claim that Serena has ever used PEDs? With all due respect, you guys are starting to make more false claims than you would hear at a Trump rally in Alabama on Jefferson Davis’s birthday. Plus, how much money she has earned in her sport has zero bearing or relevance regarding the incident. Her behaviour on the court was out of line. I’ve seen lots worse that was never penalised as harshly. That doesn’t excuse it, but in these times a little discretion by all would have made a big difference. Kiss my ass, I’m great, female and black? I googled all three of those quotes you cited as her words and couldn’t find any matches. A freak of nature in what way?
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 9:26:57 GMT -5
Good challenges! There is no evidence, nor did I say that she did. I did say that I have to wonder a bit. Rages and outrageous behavior have been linked to certain PEDs. A look at her size and her obvious physical conditioning means she has either trained like no other woman I've ever seen on the courts or she's had some help to get there. A freak of nature in her strength as a female (and in a good way). She has performed and excelled beyond the normal expectations of age in her sport.
No, you won't find where she actually uttered those words, and I should have made that obvious. She said that she was being treated differently as a woman and differently because she was black. Yes, I did add the ass kissing, and did so because she seemed to have expectations from the judge, that to me indicated that she felt she was a victim of multiple forms of bigotry. Did I assume the race card was being pulled? If so I truly am sorry. I thought I heard her make an after statement that she was treated differently due to race and sex, or sex and race. I forget what order. It seems the press indicated that it "rekindles" rhetoric about angry black women. So perhaps I got caught up in rhetoric that was not of Ms. Williams making. If so, that is truly regrettable.
One of my personal goals is to ignore the color of everyone's skin during my day. I've decided that there are no whites, no blacks, no hispanics, etc. We are all different tones of brown. Then an incident comes up and boom! Someone is all upset. I lost my way in that goal during this incident. Perhaps I'll keep on track better in the future.
Yes, I was in a pissy mood when I posted that and probably should have stayed away from the thread when I was in that mood. I deserve to be chastised a bit for that. Those were some inner thoughts that were probably better off being filtered before being spat out, but there are times that my filter does perform it's job very well...
I've thought of many other athletes before as a "freak of nature". Mickey Mantle was one. Babe certainly another. Randy Johnson. Tiger Woods. Barry Bonds. Nolan Ryan. These are just remarkably gifted people, some of whom perhaps had a bit of help through chemicals and some who did not. Ms. Williams was a very logical addition to my list...I do get upset when people denigrate their sport by playing the victim when in fact they live very privileged and exceptionally bountiful lives.
I suppose that perhaps the appropriate punishment for me is to deduct a point, such as was done to Serena Williams in her match for the coaching. I coached myself poorly. So far, I haven't smashed my racket or called anyone a bad name for disagreeing with me. In fact, I've stated that in retrospect I should have cooled down a bit and thought about how inflammatory my post might be. Downright offensive even. That is not the direction I want to choose in my representation of my self. At least since I haven't smashed my keyboard, or my racket, etc., perhaps anyone offended will resist the urge to penalize me the entire game...
Any way, thanks for calling me out, chuck. It was the right thing to do as we all learn to better share this planet. It teaches me that I still have work to do to become a better human being myself...I consider myself as one who is going through as yet another metamorphosis right now, and I hope to emerge from this imaginary cocoon better than I did the last time I applied myself to personal change...I too, have become a bit angrier than I like in recent years. I need to learn to be more at rest, more peaceful...
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 9:33:54 GMT -5
I tend to agree, inger. Go find the statement by Martina Navratilova about this incident which I thought was right on the mark. Basically said there was in fact a double standard, but this missed the point--which was you shouldn't act like that as a professional tennis player, man or woman. Thanks for this. Martina did a great job of putting perspective on the incident. Odd thing is that I really don't give damn about tennis and wish I had never even seen the incident re-broadcast on the news. Perhaps it shouldn't have been. We didn't need to see that. Is it really "news"? Nah, it was sick entertainment, which often poses for news these days... |
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Post by Renfield on Sept 12, 2018 10:06:59 GMT -5
I thought Martina had a good perspective, too. All that being said, I've never thought Serena was any more of a Diva than any other tennis player and she's had few incidents, that I can recall, of any sort of bad sportsmanship or controversy over a very long career--and given the intense scrutiny she lives with and has lived with for two decades, that's fairly remarkable.
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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 10:41:36 GMT -5
I tend to agree, inger. Go find the statement by Martina Navratilova about this incident which I thought was right on the mark. Basically said there was in fact a double standard, but this missed the point--which was you shouldn't act like that as a professional tennis player, man or woman. Thanks for this. Martina did a great job of putting perspective on the incident. Odd thing is that I really don't give damn about tennis and wish I had never even seen the incident re-broadcast on the news. Perhaps it shouldn't have been. We didn't need to see that. Is it really "news"? Nah, it was sick entertainment, which often poses for news these days... I guess I am the lucky one, since I have avoided seeing the "incident" thus far....players shouting at umpires...managers/coaches shouting at umpires.....about the only sport I have not seen that is curling...…... |
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Post by domeplease on Sept 12, 2018 11:05:18 GMT -5
Inger. Buddy. What evidence can you cite to support your claim that Serena has ever used PEDs? With all due respect, you guys are starting to make more false claims than you would hear at a Trump rally in Alabama on Jefferson Davis’s birthday. Plus, how much money she has earned in her sport has zero bearing or relevance regarding the incident. Her behaviour on the court was out of line. I’ve seen lots worse that was never penalised as harshly. That doesn’t excuse it, but in these times a little discretion by all would have made a big difference. Kiss my ass, I’m great, female and black? I googled all three of those quotes you cited as her words and couldn’t find any matches. A freak of nature in what way? BRAVO CHUCK = Sometimes One's Beliefs and/or what One wants to believe, suddenly becomes the Fact/Truth.
I believe Serena, should not have had this outburst ON THE COURT; she could have addressed this during the Post Game Press Interview...however, I understand it.
I can name you a number of Male Tennis Players that did much worse on Court...
As far as PEDS = Someone has been smoking the Real Good Stuff...can they get me some of that Real Good Stuff???
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Post by domeplease on Sept 12, 2018 11:07:43 GMT -5
Thanks for this. Martina did a great job of putting perspective on the incident. Odd thing is that I really don't give damn about tennis and wish I had never even seen the incident re-broadcast on the news. Perhaps it shouldn't have been. We didn't need to see that. Is it really "news"? Nah, it was sick entertainment, which often poses for news these days... I guess I am the lucky one, since I have avoided seeing the "incident" thus far....players shouting at umpires...managers/coaches shouting at umpires.....about the only sport I have not seen that is curling...…... During the Last Winter Games, I became HOOKED on Curling...looks easy, but if is very difficult. |
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