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Post by inger on Nov 2, 2019 9:16:10 GMT -5
Thanks for all information and knowledge in this thread, inger! I wish I could contribute but I only started watching in baseball in 1995 so I'm not the best historian. Still love reading about stuff like this from those more knowledgeable than me though. Keep it up! As usual, you give me far too much credit. I was a mere child when watching Elston Howard and Yogi Berra. My father was yet to be born in the Schang years. I hear echoes of some stories and have remembrances of reading about the oldest of timers. I’m simply reprising some stats that publications have made available to us to try to see if any numbers make sense as compared to the pre-conceived notions that normally give sway to opinion. If that revitalizes a memory or two, I may share that, and perhaps others will do the same. The exercise should be a little fun, a little boring, and likely inconclusive. The journey is the destination... As for you, as a fan since 1995, you have plenty of ammo. Some people like to wade through numbers and try to figure out what they mean. Some don’t. Be brave for the next generation of fans!... |
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Post by sierchio on Nov 2, 2019 12:07:50 GMT -5
Thanks for all information and knowledge in this thread, inger! I wish I could contribute but I only started watching in baseball in 1995 so I'm not the best historian. Still love reading about stuff like this from those more knowledgeable than me though. Keep it up! Same here ![]()  |
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Post by inger on Nov 4, 2019 20:05:22 GMT -5
Range factor per 9 innings played. Baseball Reference provides this number, as well as a range factor per game played. I decided that range factor per nine innings made more sense for comparison purposes. Some players might start a game only to be replaced for defensive purposes, while others might start a game only to be pinch hit or pinch run for during the game. It would seem to me that catchers would be more prone than any other position to be replaced during a game, if not for the reasons already stated, perhaps even for a minor (or worse) injury.
By using range factor per 9 (RF/9 going forward), I feel we are getting a more accurate reflection of what the player is contributing while he’s on the field. RF/9 is simply the number of assists and putouts averaged per nine innings. This should reflect quite well how well catchers perform in chasing down foul balls, pouncing on tappers or bunts within his range, etc..
I didn’t care at all about differences from one era to another, this is simply a comparison between league average per 9 and each individual player. The number shown will NOT be the actual RF/9, but instead will be the differential, plus or minus compared to the league average.
1. Mike Stanley 0.62 (plays per 9 innings in excess of league average) br
2. Munson 0.58
3. Dickey 0.58
4. Wynegar 0.50
5. Berra 0.48
6. Schang 0.20
7. Howard 0.09
8. Posada (-0.27)
Mike Stanley leading this list astounded me, but facts are facts. Munson and Dickey in a dead heat was not, nor was the fact that all the way down to #5 the stats are very close (except for that Stanley thing).
I was a bit surprised that Schang didn’t fair better, since he was a dead ball era player who may have seen a lot more bunts laid down than the others.
Jorge Posada was the only one of the entire group that had a below average (and considerably so) RF/9...
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Post by inger on Nov 4, 2019 20:20:27 GMT -5
Percentage caught stealing. This will once again be the differential in CS vs. the league average caught stealing. I makes no sense to compare Bill Dickey’s actual percentage to the actual percentage of Jorge Posada, since only about 60% of runners normally stole successfully in Dickey’s era vs. 72% or so during Posada’s era.
1. Munson 6 (% better than league average)
1. Dickey 6
1. Howard 6
4. Berra 4
5. Wynegar 2
6. Stanley 1.5
7. Schang 0
8. Posada (-2)
No real surprises here, either. Stanley topping Schang is a mild one, bit then again, Schang actually had a better raw percentage, as would be expected in his era. Love the 3-way tie for the top mark, and that Yogi was right behind...
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Post by inger on Nov 5, 2019 0:21:56 GMT -5
There will be more defensive stats and ratings to follow...
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Post by kaybli on Nov 5, 2019 0:27:41 GMT -5
Range factor per 9 innings played. Baseball Reference provides this number, as well as a range factor per game played. I decided that range factor per nine innings made more sense for comparison purposes. Some players might start a game only to be replaced for defensive purposes, while others might start a game only to be pinch hit or pinch run for during the game. It would seem to me that catchers would be more prone than any other position to be replaced during a game, if not for the reasons already stated, perhaps even for a minor (or worse) injury. By using range factor per 9 (RF/9 going forward), I feel we are getting a more accurate reflection of what the player is contributing while he’s on the field. RF/9 is simply the number of assists and putouts averaged per nine innings. This should reflect quite well how well catchers perform in chasing down foul balls, pouncing on tappers or bunts within his range, etc.. I didn’t care at all about differences from one era to another, this is simply a comparison between league average per 9 and each individual player. The number shown will NOT be the actual RF/9, but instead will be the differential, plus or minus compared to the league average. 1. Mike Stanley 0.62 (plays per 9 innings in excess of league average) br 2. Munson 0.58 3. Dickey 0.58 4. Wynegar 0.50 5. Berra 0.48 6. Schang 0.20 7. Howard 0.09 8. Posada (-0.27) Mike Stanley leading this list astounded me, but facts are facts. Munson and Dickey in a dead heat was not, nor was the fact that all the way down to #5 the stats are very close (except for that Stanley thing). I was a bit surprised that Schang didn’t fair better, since he was a dead ball era player who may have seen a lot more bunts laid down than the others. Jorge Posada was the only one of the entire group that had a below average (and considerably so) RF/9... Is range factor for catchers even that important? How many chances do they get besides the occasional odd bunt or tapper? |
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Post by inger on Nov 5, 2019 0:50:42 GMT -5
That was my first reaction as well, kaybli. According to the numbers provided by Baseball Reference catchers get about 6 plays per nine innings. When we consider that this a total of putouts and assists per nine innings, these would include assists on SB and strikeouts by the pitching staff.
I’ve also noticed that Gary Sanchez is over 10 plays per nine innings now that strikeout rates are higher. I haven’t checked out the Yankee pitching staff during Stanley’s day yet, but I’m suspecting that the Yanks might have been near or at the top of strikeouts by their pitching staff, which might explain Stanley being at the top of the list.
In any event, that is why I felt that the only hint of value in the stat would be how much of a delta there was between the RF/9 and the league RF/9.
I find one other potential fault with the stat in that a catcher who doesn’t throw well may actually get more assists while gunning down more runners due to a greater willingness of runners to attempt a steal. This is very similar to the outfielders against whom no one dares to run, vs. the outfielder that many run on nabbing a few assists just out of attrition due to the extra attempts to take the extra base.
I doubt that it’s meaningless, but I also would say that in this instance, just like when we reviewed offensive stats, this one will merely be one piece from which to cobble together a “score”. There was one apparent outlier in the top five. That happened to be the #1, and he also happens to be a fellow with far fewer games played than the recognized defensive greats. That also happened to be in an era where strikeouts were beginning to play a larger role, just as we now see Sanchez (not enough games yet for me to feel it was fair to include him) is now in a much different strikeout era than even Stanley was in. So, we can probably chalk Stanley up to a small sample.
Back-tracking, I believe the small, mid career offensive sample of Stanley makes him look better in comparison because we have neither his formative MLB seasons, nor his decline years included.
You’ve done a great job of getting me to reveal a couple of bombs I was going to set off nearer to the end of this exercise. I was saving them, but ONLY IF no one asked. Since you did, there you go.
I intend to total up defensive “points” at the end of the defensive exercise, and am also considering some ideas that will either further compensate the players with longer tenures or hinder those with short tenures (depending on your view of them). I figured that to be more of a final step in declaring an imperfect “winner”...
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Post by inger on Nov 5, 2019 20:20:00 GMT -5
Just totaling the first two lists here to keep a running count on the defensive totals. Again, lowest is best.
Munson 4.5
Dickey 4.5
Stanley 7
Howard 9
Berra 9
Wynegar 9
Schang 13
Posada 16
Couple things: Since Munson. Dickey, and Howard all tied for the top spot in CS, I split the difference and awarded each player 2 points (the average between 1 for first and 3 for third).
Since Munson and Dickey tied for 2nd on the RF/9 list, I awarded each player 2.5 points (echoing why from the situation above).
The list continues to move into a recognizable shape with the lone exception of Stanley, who appears well out of place to be even ahead of Posada, much stalwarts like Berra and Howard. But wait! There’s more to come... I will confess that I would have expected Berra to be more in the top spot conversation, too. But wait, there’s more!!!
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Post by inger on Nov 5, 2019 21:14:04 GMT -5
In keeping with the theme of the previous post, let’s stay with stolen base prevention and see how well each catcher performed picking off base runners. Like most of the other items in the catching category, this is an infrequent event, but still a part of what catchers can do to help their team.
The following list is a rate list that will show the number of pickoffs each player had PER 100 INNINGS. You’ll have to trust my math on this. No source provides it broken down this way. Content you can only get here at heamyha!
1. Munson .354
2. Dickey . 284
3. Howard .220
4. Berra .181
5. Posada .101
6. Wynegar .094
7. Schang .050
8. Stanley .000
Couple notes: The number of pickoffs was only tracked in Wally Schang final Yankee season. He nabbed 2 in 400.2 innings work. He may have been better than he’s represented here, but there’s not much I can do to help him.
The rubber really met the road here for Mike Stanley. He never had a successful pick off.
Can Posada climb out of the bottom spot?
Finally, Munson and Dickey were especially adept at this skill, at least compared to other Yankee catchers.
Running count update:
1. Munson 5.5
2. Dickey 6.5
3. Howard 12
4. Berra 13
5. Wynegar 15
5. Stanley 15
7. Schang 20
8. Posada 21
Okay. More to come...
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Post by inger on Nov 5, 2019 21:43:06 GMT -5
Next step. Fielding pct. vs. league average fielding pct.
The following is number of points greater or lesser than the league’s average percentage fielding for catchers only.
1. Dickey +6
2. Wynegar +4
3. Howard +3
4. Berra +2
5. Posada +1
6. Munson -2
6. Schang -2
6. Stanley -2
With Munson, Schang, and Stanley tying for the 6th spot, all will get 7 points added as we update the sub totals below:
Dickey 7.5
Munson 12.5
Howard 15
Berra 17
Wynegar 17
Stanley 22
Posada 26
Schang 27
Dickey opens up a solid lead as Munson takes a big hit. Stanley’s plunge continues, Posada climbs out of the basement. The expected top 4 defenders are comprising the top of the list...
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Post by inger on Nov 5, 2019 23:25:50 GMT -5
I just reviewed my materials. I’ll have one more defensive post, then 2 final posts to reach the conclusion based on my intended methodology. Hopefully, that will invigorate some discussion...
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Post by inger on Nov 6, 2019 21:36:51 GMT -5
The final post for the claim to defensive excellence will feature catcher passed balls per 100 innings.
1. Dickey .528
2. Berra .530
3. Wynegar .601
4. Howard .793
5. Munson .837
6. Schang 1.061
7. Stanley 1.063
8. Posada 1.102
In defense of Schang (maybe), BR only had stats for his final season with the Yankees, and he caught only 400 innings that season. Yet, this is what it is.
It’s odd how angry we get about the passed balls these days with Sanchez behind the plate given that we’re barely out of a long era of Posada’s passed balls. Young players get beat up a bit easier by fans, I suppose.
Here is how the final DEFENSIVE rankings wound up.
1. Dickey 8.5
2. Munson 17.5
3. Berra 19
3. Howard 19
5. Wynegar 20
6. Stanley 29
7. Schang 33
8. Posada 34
Posada thuds to the bottom, but then again... this is the bottom among the top 8, so let’s not pretend he’s garbage...
More to come...
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Post by inger on Nov 6, 2019 21:53:03 GMT -5
Taking each player’s finish (1-8) in each category, we total them to get a total standing. This puts us one step away from completing the exercise.
As a for instance we have Schang, 7th in defense + 3rd in offense = 10 points.
Player D rate O rate = total
1.Dickey 1 1 2
2. Berra 3 4 7
3. Munson 2 6 8
4. Stanley 6 2 8
5. Howard 3 7 10
6. Schang 7 3 10
7. Posada 8 5 13
8. Wynegar 5 8 13
Stanley zooms back up as we include his hitting standing. So does Schang...
One more final step to completion...
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Post by inger on Nov 6, 2019 22:03:03 GMT -5
While the list is “not bad” at this point, I just can’t have tolerance for a player of longer tenure not being rewarded when we speak of “the greatest”. To reward tenure I’ve listed the players 1-8 by the number of innings they caught for the NY Yankees only.
1. Dickey 14,381
2. Berra 14,328
3. Posada 12,877
4. Munson 11,108
5. Howard 8,693
6. Schang 4,240
7. Wynegar 3,660
8. Stanley 2,916
I’m adding points here just like I have for the other categories. I think that to be at least “somewhat” fair.
Final Standings in the next post:
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Post by inger on Nov 6, 2019 22:16:48 GMT -5
Final points:
1. Dickey 3
2. Berra 6
3. Munson 12
4. Howard 15
5. Posada 16
5. Stanley 16
5. Schang 16
8. Wynegar 20
I don’t pretend this was at all scientific, but to me it provides some sort of systematic conclusion that may be better than simple opinion. No one saw all of these players play, and no one knows how they would have performed in different eras. All comparisons being to players in their own era with exception of longevity strikes me as one way to put their numbers into perspective without having one of the largest data-bases in the world. It feels pretty close to me.
Someone could argue that some of the categories should have been valued higher than others. It could argued whether defense or offense means the most, especially at the catcher position.
Feedback would be appreciated...
* I realized after the second base exercise that I did earlier that there should have been a reward for longevity. It just doesn’t feel right to give a player credit for playing only a handful of seasons in the middle of their peak years the same “credit” as a player who played longer with the team and may have been on the Yankee roster during formative years, decline years, or both.
Also: Wow, Dickey just didn’t have a weakness to speak of. I’m in awe of him. Until this I was between him and Yogi in my mind. I wanted to believe it was Yogi, but Dickey was huge on those great Yankee teams. Now I see why...
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