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Post by kaybli on Nov 6, 2019 22:31:31 GMT -5
Final points: 1. Dickey 3 2. Berra 6 3. Munson 12 4. Howard 15 5. Posada 16 5. Stanley 16 5. Schang 16 8. Wynegar 20 I don’t pretend this was at all scientific, but to me it provides some sort of systematic conclusion that may be better than simple opinion. No one saw all of these players play, and no one knows how they would have performed in different eras. All comparisons being to players in their own era with exception of longevity strikes me as one way to put their numbers into perspective without having one of the largest data-bases in the world. It feels pretty close to me. Someone could argue that some of the categories should have been valued higher than others. It could argued whether defense or offense means the most, especially at the catcher position. Feedback would be appreciated... * I realized after the second base exercise that I did earlier that there should have been a reward for longevity. It just doesn’t feel right to give a player credit for playing only a handful of seasons in the middle of their peak years the same “credit” as a player who played longer with the team and may have been on the Yankee roster during formative years, decline years, or both. Also: Wow, Dickey just didn’t have a weakness to speak of. I’m in awe of him. Until this I was between him and Yogi in my mind. I wanted to believe it was Yogi, but Dickey was huge on those great Yankee teams. Now I see why... From my limited historical knowledge the order of the list looks good to me except Posada should not be tied with Stanley. Stanley had only 4+ seasons with the Yanks. Posada was a mainstay. |
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Post by inger on Nov 6, 2019 23:14:10 GMT -5
I agree with you, kaybli. Yet, it turned out like it did. Jorge’s defense did him in, and Stanley’s bat saved him. Would theYankees have started Stanley over Posada if they had both been on the team at the same time?
I think it would have been a tough decision. One reason I gave points for longevity was to even that issue up a bit. I always say that the biggest part of success is showing up. Well, sometimes it’s about opportunity. Stanley’s opportunity with the Yankees was short term. Lucky for him, he was also a first baseman, and that made him more useful to teams. Other than that, there were some striking similarities. Both switch hitters, both with some challenges behind the plate and a lot of success at bat.
Personally, I was very pleased to have Mike Stanley when he was a Yankee, and even more so with Posada. I regard Posada as the greater Yankee by a pretty good margin...His passed ball frequency was a real stunner, though...
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Post by rizzuto on Nov 6, 2019 23:29:02 GMT -5
I’ve always thought Bill Dickey was under-appreciated in general, that is as under-appreciated as a Hall of Famer can be. More than anything, we must thank Dickey for teaching Yogi Berra how to catch. Berra always credited Dickey with any defensive accolades he received.
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Post by inger on Nov 6, 2019 23:37:25 GMT -5
I’ve always thought Bill Dickey was under-appreciated in general, that is as under-appreciated as a Hall of Famer can be. More than anything, we must thank Dickey for teaching Yogi Berra how to catch. Berra always credited Dickey with any defensive accolades he received. Under-appreciated offensively, too. Sure. He was well behind Ruth and Gehrig, but a catcher that hit 200 HR in THAT era? Holy smoke! He WAS the Ruth and Gehrig of the position... The lore of his toughness is amazing, too. Still more innings than any Yankee catcher. An era with few rest days, sharp metal spikes and direct slides into a home plate that you’d better be blocking with all your might if you didn’t want your own team to stomp you...I’m saying he could have whipped Ruth’s ass in a fight in seconds... |
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 7, 2019 8:26:49 GMT -5
At some point in the 1930s, many baseball people started considering Bill Dickey the best ever at his position, closely followed by his near-contemporary Mickey Cochrane. Through the decades, Cochrane's stock seemed to go up just a bit, and then Yogi entered the mix, then Bench and so on.
It always seemed as if people who saw them play rated Dickey higher than Cochrane, but as the eyewitness generation passed on, Cochrane's numbers started looking a tad better. They were both great ones and I don't have the inclination to do a deep dive on it right now, but I just thought it was interesting.
Anyway, not only was Yogi lavish in his praise of Dickey's coaching skills, so was Elston Howard. He must have been one heck of a teacher.
Probably no significant Yankee player took more advantage of the short porch than Bill Dickey. He hit almost exactly twice as many home runs at Yankee Stadium than he did on the road. A lot of his other offensive stats were pretty balanced between home and road, but HRs were not. I never penalize a player for maximizing the hand he was dealt.
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 7, 2019 8:35:12 GMT -5
And on the durability issue -- for sure it was tough to keep Dickey out of the lineup. He had 13 seasons of catching 100 or more games. Yogi and Posada, who were both pretty durable themselves, each had 10 (Jorge had anoher year with 99.)
Thurman Munson was right in there with them on the durability scale. He would have had his ninth such season in 1979 at age 32.
Dickey was probably Lou Gehrig's best friend on the team, and as you no doubt know made a brief appearance in the movie "Pride of the Yankees."
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Post by greatfatness on Nov 7, 2019 9:23:45 GMT -5
The lack of Matt Nokes discussion in this thread is disappointing.
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 7, 2019 10:05:12 GMT -5
The lack of Matt Nokes discussion in this thread is disappointing. Man, he was there during some dark days. Compared to the guy he replaced, Bob Geren, he wasn't so bad. Brian Dorsett, Don Slaught -- I have bad memories of those teams. Maybe after this thread we could do one for worst Yankee catchers of all time. |
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Post by inger on Nov 7, 2019 10:25:46 GMT -5
The lack of Matt Nokes discussion in this thread is disappointing. Well, poop! Back on June 16-17 when we (being you and I)were discussing Nokes, I wish you’d have spoken up. I came really close to including him. He, along with Stanley, seemed at the time to be by far the worst of the defenders at the position. Then again, I hadn’t dived as deeply into defensive stats at that point. So that, along with a rather pedestrian 103 OPS+ got him left out of the discussion. At this point I agree that we should have had a top nine to consider. On the other hand, he wasn’t going to be the all-time great. I like Nokes a lot when he was on the team. His bat played well at YS. But, please man. Speak up earlier next time. I value your opinion. If I can something to these projects I’m happy to do so. The mild amount of so-called research is a pleasure for me. I take the time to post the information for you guys, so when I can do something to make it more interesting, speak up. That goes for all of you. Except Russ, of course... 😂 |
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Post by rizzuto on Nov 7, 2019 10:33:19 GMT -5
The lack of Matt Nokes discussion in this thread is disappointing. Except Russ, of course... 😂 Best Bunting Catchers of All Time... |
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Post by kaybli on Nov 7, 2019 10:45:27 GMT -5
Except Russ, of course... 😂 Best Bunting Catchers of All Time... 😂 |
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Post by inger on Nov 7, 2019 11:52:06 GMT -5
We haven’t heard much from Russ lately. I PM’d him. Not sure if he has to hibernate in winter or not. He’s already in Florida, so winter migration would be limited...
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Post by greatfatness on Nov 7, 2019 15:26:56 GMT -5
The lack of Matt Nokes discussion in this thread is disappointing. Well, poop! Back on June 16-17 when we (being you and I)were discussing Nokes, I wish you’d have spoken up. I came really close to including him. He, along with Stanley, seemed at the time to be by far the worst of the defenders at the position. Then again, I hadn’t dived as deeply into defensive stats at that point. So that, along with a rather pedestrian 103 OPS+ got him left out of the discussion. At this point I agree that we should have had a top nine to consider. On the other hand, he wasn’t going to be the all-time great. I like Nokes a lot when he was on the team. His bat played well at YS. But, please man. Speak up earlier next time. I value your opinion. If I can something to these projects I’m happy to do so. The mild amount of so-called research is a pleasure for me. I take the time to post the information for you guys, so when I can do something to make it more interesting, speak up. That goes for all of you. Except Russ, of course... 😂 Ok then. No catcher in the history of the Yankees has attacked more mascots than Matt Nokes Don't Be Too Quick To Jump On Nokes Mascots be warned: Don't play the heavy around Matt Nokes. The former All-Star catcher, 34, who plays for the St. Paul Saints of the independent Northern League, attacked a mascot who wouldn't stop jumping on his team's plywood dugout during a game against the Goldeyes in Winnipeg. The Goldeyes said Nokes chased and choked the mascot with a broomstick. The mascot, whom the team wouldn't name, was not injured and Nokes wasn't charged, said Jonathan Green, a Goldeye spokesman. |
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Post by sierchio on Nov 7, 2019 15:51:41 GMT -5
The lack of Matt Nokes discussion in this thread is disappointing. Man, he was there during some dark days. Compared to the guy he replaced, Bob Geren, he wasn't so bad. Brian Dorsett, Don Slaught -- I have bad memories of those teams. Maybe after this thread we could do one for worst Yankee catchers of all time. Jimmy Leyritz |
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Post by inger on Nov 7, 2019 15:53:57 GMT -5
Well, poop! Back on June 16-17 when we (being you and I)were discussing Nokes, I wish you’d have spoken up. I came really close to including him. He, along with Stanley, seemed at the time to be by far the worst of the defenders at the position. Then again, I hadn’t dived as deeply into defensive stats at that point. So that, along with a rather pedestrian 103 OPS+ got him left out of the discussion. At this point I agree that we should have had a top nine to consider. On the other hand, he wasn’t going to be the all-time great. I like Nokes a lot when he was on the team. His bat played well at YS. But, please man. Speak up earlier next time. I value your opinion. If I can something to these projects I’m happy to do so. The mild amount of so-called research is a pleasure for me. I take the time to post the information for you guys, so when I can do something to make it more interesting, speak up. That goes for all of you. Except Russ, of course... 😂 Ok then. No catcher in the history of the Yankees has attacked more mascots than Matt Nokes Don't Be Too Quick To Jump On Nokes Mascots be warned: Don't play the heavy around Matt Nokes. The former All-Star catcher, 34, who plays for the St. Paul Saints of the independent Northern League, attacked a mascot who wouldn't stop jumping on his team's plywood dugout during a game against the Goldeyes in Winnipeg. The Goldeyes said Nokes chased and choked the mascot with a broomstick. The mascot, whom the team wouldn't name, was not injured and Nokes wasn't charged, said Jonathan Green, a Goldeye spokesman. Now (of course) you’ve piqued my curiosity. I took a quick peek at Noke’s stats. I’m pretty sure he was last in a couple offensive and defensive categories. His SLG was likely about 1/5 way down the list. I’ll give you a better report on him when I get some time to run the comps. I refuse to include a mascot ass-whipping category, no matter how hard you campaign for it!... 🤪 |
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