|
|
Post by noetsi on Aug 13, 2019 20:22:11 GMT -5
I love history. Wish I could have made a living at it 
One of the thing that fascinates me is the image of the West created by Hollywood. Very little of it actually occurred from what I have read. I doubt many of us would actually recognize the historical reality of the west (where poverty and disease were everyday realities, people worked themselves to death). Its estimated that 1/3 of all cowboys were black, and many were likely Hispanic. You did not see much of that on TV which tells you more about Hollywood than the West. |
|
|
|
Post by pippsheadache on Aug 13, 2019 20:25:35 GMT -5
This has the potential to become another political thread. Be careful.
"F Troop" gave a very realistic portrayal of life in the old West.
That's my last word on the subject.
|
|
|
|
Post by noetsi on Aug 13, 2019 20:29:48 GMT -5
How could people get upset about history? If it does become angry I will leave, to me its fun.
lol F troop.
Efforts to make comedies about the West generally struggled artistically and I think at the box office. Not a lot were made.
|
|
|
|
Post by pippsheadache on Aug 13, 2019 20:32:54 GMT -5
Blazing Saddles comes to mind.
|
|
|
|
Post by noetsi on Aug 13, 2019 20:38:42 GMT -5
Blazing Saddles comes to mind. yeah if a movie that had WWII Germans in it among many other crazy things could be said to be about the West.
There is a movie featuring Burt Lancaster in the early sixties that was intended to be funny. Having watched it there is very little that is really funny about it.
|
|
|
|
Post by noetsi on Aug 13, 2019 20:44:35 GMT -5
one of the funny things about the West is there is this image that Western cavalry had swords and repeating rifles. But until very late in the West, when nearly all the campaigns were over, they used single shot rifles primarily to cut down on costs. Swords were not authorized (except perhaps at ceremonies) in the West. They would have been pretty useless fighting native americans.
|
|
|
|
Post by noetsi on Aug 13, 2019 20:53:56 GMT -5
Utah brought up the OK Corral on another thread. One of the thing I always found fascinating about that is that Wyatt Earp is often portrayed as a long time gunman and law officer. In fact there is little evidence he killed anyone before Tombstone (he claimed to have been in one gunfight in which he killed someone, but no one else remembered it). His brother was a lawman, but not him before Tombstone (or at least he rarely served in that role).
|
|
|
|
Post by noetsi on Aug 13, 2019 21:11:52 GMT -5
Wood was scare where most of the Western campaigns took place and there was no point to build wooden forts because the native Americans were not going to attack you there. Even on the Bozeman trail where they were built the Sioux did not attack them directly.
Most US cavalry regiments were headquartered far from where they fought. Custer was based in his last campaign I believe in Nebraska and was not fighting anyone in Nebraska of course
|
|
|
|
Post by noetsi on Aug 13, 2019 21:18:10 GMT -5
One of the icons of the West are attacks on wagon trains. But they were relatively rare. Native Americans often assisted or likely traded with them. Amusingly the circling of wagons was common but not out of concern for attacks. It was done to keep animals from wondering off. Nothing worse than a lost horse |
|
|
|
Post by rizzuto on Aug 13, 2019 21:23:26 GMT -5
Wood was scare where most of the Western campaigns took place and there was no point to build wooden forts because the native Americans were not going to attack you there. Even on the Bozeman trail where they were built the Sioux did not attack them directly. Most US cavalry regiments were headquartered far from where they fought. Custer was based in his last campaign I believe in Nebraska and was not fighting anyone in Nebraska of course Forts were not constructed for the purpose of inducing Indian attacks. |
|
|
|
Post by utahyank on Aug 13, 2019 21:28:44 GMT -5
The various "stories of the West" that have been dramatized into movies, books and lore have, for most of them, some snippet or more of fact woven into that story.....it's not like they have been made up out of whole cloth....
I don't know what your point is directed toward....but....timber was available in canyons and mountains of the West...most of the forts were during the periods of the Great Sioux War, to use one of the terms for that era...
If someone wants a mostly factual example of what was faced by the forts, look at accounts of Fort Phil Kearny, one of a string of three forts from Laramie to Bozeman, and the events which lead to a successful massacre of about 50 troops under the command of Captain Fetterman....this is a story of intrigue, deceit, cunning, and bravery....The history seems to be
consistent from both the Native American and US Army perspectives....
It is clear from an account such as this that the opportunities for expanding into widespread exaggerations in novels and movies were ripe for the picking...and picked they were...
|
|
|
|
Post by noetsi on Aug 13, 2019 21:33:07 GMT -5
Wood was scare where most of the Western campaigns took place and there was no point to build wooden forts because the native Americans were not going to attack you there. Even on the Bozeman trail where they were built the Sioux did not attack them directly. Most US cavalry regiments were headquartered far from where they fought. Custer was based in his last campaign I believe in Nebraska and was not fighting anyone in Nebraska of course Forts were not constructed for the purpose of inducing Indian attacks. I agree. And they almost never were attacked. I think that in the vast majority of cases they were administrative centers. I don't know if reliable records exist, but most men in the regiments probably were not at their forts most of the time in the West. They had a huge amount of ground to cover and very small forces.
A lot of the cavalry were immigrants, few others wanted to serve in a dangerous and often boring job. The pay by the time was actually pretty good.
I was fascinated to know that the US cavalry came to an end only in 1942. The last known charge was in the Philippines in that year. Crazy that you could actually successfully charge in that era.
|
|
|
|
Post by inger on Aug 13, 2019 21:34:46 GMT -5
This is already turning into “Mr. Peabody’s Fractured West”...
The west did become a harbor for many former slaves who went there looking for fairer treatment. Certainly there was, and still is, a significant Hispanic population.
I think Noetsi is confusing what history has reported with the depiction of history in movies and fictional accounts in books...
No true historian would watch those movies to get an accurate accounting of that life...
|
|
|
|
Post by utahyank on Aug 13, 2019 21:36:23 GMT -5
Wood was scare where most of the Western campaigns took place and there was no point to build wooden forts because the native Americans were not going to attack you there. Even on the Bozeman trail where they were built the Sioux did not attack them directly. Most US cavalry regiments were headquartered far from where they fought. Custer was based in his last campaign I believe in Nebraska and was not fighting anyone in Nebraska of course wrong....Custer was based in Ft Lincoln North Dakota....the war certainly WAS raging in Nebraska....the effective "end" of the war was the surrender at Fort Robinson, Nebraska...strange how all these forts were built in a West that had a scarcity of timber.... You really are misinformed on the timber issue..... |
|
|
|
Post by noetsi on Aug 13, 2019 21:37:01 GMT -5
The various "stories of the West" that have been dramatized into movies, books and lore have, for most of them, some snippet or more of fact woven into that story.....it's not like they have been made up out of whole cloth.... I don't know what your point is directed toward....but....timber was available in canyons and mountains of the West...most of the forts were during the periods of the Great Sioux War, to use one of the terms for that era... If someone wants a mostly factual example of what was faced by the forts, look at accounts of Fort Phil Kearny, one of a string of three forts from Laramie to Bozeman, and the events which lead to a successful massacre of about 50 troops under the command of Captain Fetterman....this is a story of intrigue, deceit, cunning, and bravery....The history seems to be consistent from both the Native American and US Army perspectives.... It is clear from an account such as this that the opportunities for expanding into widespread exaggerations in novels and movies were ripe for the picking...and picked they were... Timber was rarely available in the plains states where most of the campaigns took place. These are almost steppe like in their nature. The forts you mention are on the Bozeman trail which was the exception rather than the rule.
I don't have a point other than what I have read suggests the images of the West had little to do with the West. I find that fascinating. Hollywood in its heyday of Western movies was not really interested in history, although they became much more interested in the sixties (by which time the Westerns were beginning to fade).
|
|
