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Post by inger on Mar 2, 2023 19:02:26 GMT -5
Dang, I post my thoughts on SS-2B relationships and send it only to see a fine discussion of that subject by Pipp. Hat's off, Pipp. It’s never wrong to offer confirmation of genius on this forum, BillyBones… |
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Post by BillyBones on Mar 2, 2023 19:09:08 GMT -5
Yes I know, you were still writing a fine piece when I posted my thought. I checked something else, and then back and was amused that we were having simultaneous thoughts about the DP partner. The variables may be too many for a definite correlation, but certainly the 2B listed by inger were among the elite for their day.
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Post by rizzuto on Mar 2, 2023 19:14:54 GMT -5
I'll offer a thought, but I'm not sure if it's measurable, or even widely valid. I have thought that 2B turning the double play is often conditional on the shortstop they play with. It seemed clear to me, after watching Rizzuto interface with his second baseman, that Phil made every 2B better than he was before. The case-in-point example might be Joe Gordon, who to these young-at-the-time eyes, seemed to be a plus defender, and after Joe got traded to Cleveland, seemed to age overnight or something, which maybe he did. There was a reason Phil was so highly regarded around the league by opposition fans. My Dad, who saw most AL shortstops back to the 20's, and some NL SS's as well, thought Phil was the best he'd seen. Well, the board here can weigh in on all that. I would be interested in hearing thoughts from the knowledgeable base here. regards. Billy -- I posted my thoughts before I saw yours. I do think the partner has to make a difference, although I was applying it strictly to the 12 second basemen listed by Inger. I wish I had seen Gordon, who may have been the best defensive second baseman the Yanks ever had, just as Scooter must have been the best defensive SS for the Yanks. People forget how good Tony Kubek was as well. There was a time, before we knew about his PED use, that several of us on this board thought Robby Cano was the best Yankee defensive second baseman we had ever seen -- certainly the best arm -- but none of us had seen Gordon or Lazzeri. Randolph and Richardson were also outstanding defensive players, as was McDougald (but he moved around a lot.) Fortunately, I read you and Billy Bones before answering Inger's post. Similar thoughts about up-the-middle tandems' influence on each other individually struck me as well. My first thought was Whitaker and Trammell. My second thought was Willie Randolph's less than steady stream of shortstops. I had forgotten Bucky played for five years with the Yankees. For some reason, I was thinking no more than three. Of course - as I have mentioned previously - my memory was likely affected by the fact that I stopped watching baseball when Thurman Munson was killed on August 2, 1979, and I did not return until my interest was once again piqued by some minor league guy pulled up by the name of Mattingly. There is no doubt that I harbored resentment toward Frank White and Lou Whitaker, as most announcers seemed to disregard Willie Randolph in favor of the other two defensively. I thought Randolph was at least as good and even better than both, and Willie was mainly overlooked by his lack of flash and the media's unreasonable hatred for even considering a New York Yankee as rooting for US Steel. My dearly departed fried Joe Simas considered my namesake to be the best defensive shortstop in Yankee history; however, he had no problem considering Kubek and Richardson as likely the best defensive tandem in Yankee history. I wish I had seen Joe Gordon, but I must say that Billy Bones brings up a great point that Gordon either got old fast or benefited from The Scooter. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 2, 2023 20:00:10 GMT -5
Billy -- I posted my thoughts before I saw yours. I do think the partner has to make a difference, although I was applying it strictly to the 12 second basemen listed by Inger. I wish I had seen Gordon, who may have been the best defensive second baseman the Yanks ever had, just as Scooter must have been the best defensive SS for the Yanks. People forget how good Tony Kubek was as well. There was a time, before we knew about his PED use, that several of us on this board thought Robby Cano was the best Yankee defensive second baseman we had ever seen -- certainly the best arm -- but none of us had seen Gordon or Lazzeri. Randolph and Richardson were also outstanding defensive players, as was McDougald (but he moved around a lot.) Fortunately, I read you and Billy Bones before answering Inger's post. Similar thoughts about up-the-middle tandems' influence on each other individually struck me as well. My first thought was Whitaker and Trammell. My second thought was Willie Randolph's less than steady stream of shortstops. I had forgotten Bucky played for five years with the Yankees. For some reason, I was thinking no more than three. Of course - as I have mentioned previously - my memory was likely affected by the fact that I stopped watching baseball when Thurman Munson was killed on August 2, 1979, and I did not return until my interest was once again piqued by some minor league guy pulled up by the name of Mattingly. There is no doubt that I harbored resentment toward Frank White and Lou Whitaker, as most announcers seemed to disregard Willie Randolph in favor of the other two defensively. I thought Randolph was at least as good and even better than both, and Willie was mainly overlooked by his lack of flash and the media's unreasonable hatred for even considering a New York Yankee as rooting for US Steel. My dearly departed fried Joe Simas considered my namesake to be the best defensive shortstop in Yankee history; however, he had no problem considering Kubek and Richardson as likely the best defensive tandem in Yankee history. I wish I had seen Joe Gordon, but I must say that Billy Bones brings up a great point that Gordon either got old fast or benefited from The Scooter. I concur on Randolph not getting his due credit from the Yankee-hating sports media. Defensively, White, Whitaker and Randolph were all very good, no question. Of course I watched Willie more, but he was so steady, so reliable. You might be able to give a slight edge to White defensively -- he played a very deep second base and covered a lot of turf -- but with the bat, he is far inferior to either Willie or Whitaker. Randolph -- .276/.373/.351 OPS+104 6 time All Star Whitaker -- .276/.363/.426 OPS+117 5 time All Star White -- .255/.293/.307 OPS+85 5 time All Star White's value was overwhelmingly on defense, but both Randolph and Whitaker were excellent glove men too and were far better hitters. To me it would come down to Lou versus Willie. They had the exact same BA, slight edge to Randolph in getting on base, edge to Whitaker for power. For intangibles, Willie's quiet leadership and being the adult in the room gives him a leg up on the rather space cadet-like Whitaker. You could plausibly put them both in the Hall, perhaps they are borderline, but I think if either ever does get in it would be Whitaker strictly because of the Trammell connection. Funny, I also thought Dent played fewer years with the Yankees. And yes the Richardson-Kubek duo was as good defensively as any I have seen for the Yankees. Just talking about their seamless ability to work together. Kubek was tall and rangy and had a strong arm while Richardson was sure-handed and positioned himself flawlessly. Although I have no doubt that Gordon-Rizzuto would have been superior, as well as aesthetically more compelling because they were rather acrobatic. Kubek's spinal injury that he sustained in the military effectively cut his healthy career to six years. He was only 29 when he retired. For that matter, Richardson was only 31 in his final year. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 2, 2023 20:09:08 GMT -5
"You'll (Waite Hoyt) pitch the way I tell you to or you won't pitch for me at all (Hoyt was traded on May 30, 1930)." - Yankee Manager Bob Shawkey… Just to bring it full circle, Bob Shawkey was fired four months later. But really Shawkey was a pretty fair pitcher himself. Hard to believe, but he still ranks sixth all-time in victories as a Yankee with 168. He trails Ford (236), Ruffing (231), Pettitte (219), Gomez (189) and Guidry (170.) When Shawkey registered 15 strikeouts in a game in 1919, it stood as the Yankee record until Guidry himself broke it 59 years later. Bob Shawkey was the starting pitcher in the first game ever played at Yankee Stadium in 1923. He pitched a complete game 4-1 three hitter. He also scored the first run ever at the Stadium. In 1976, at the age of 85, he threw out the first pitch at the first game in the renovated Yankee Stadium. He was always showing up at Old Timers' Games, often the oldest of the old timers. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 2, 2023 20:13:44 GMT -5
Yes I know, you were still writing a fine piece when I posted my thought. I checked something else, and then back and was amused that we were having simultaneous thoughts about the DP partner. The variables may be too many for a definite correlation, but certainly the 2B listed by inger were among the elite for their day. Billy, at your leisure, I would be interested in knowing if you attended Pottstown High with the Ricketts brothers and Howie Bedell. You give us a perspective on the past that is unique, and I know a lot of us hope you will continue to contribute. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 2, 2023 20:30:30 GMT -5
Michael Young is the only Ranger to have more than 2 seasons with more than 200 hits, which he did for 5 consecutive seasons at one point. At 24.7 WAR, he has the lowest WAR of any player that has a retired uniform number. The next lowest is 34.3 by Johnny Pesky, then 36.5 by Bill Mazeroski… That is good info. For a solid player from the relatively recent past, Michael Young seems pretty much forgotten. Maybe not down in Texas I guess. He had six 200-hit seasons altogether, one of only 16 players in history to have at least that many. All of the other eligible ones (Pete Rose and Ichiro excluded; he's not eligible until 2025) are in the Hall of Fame. Young was a career .300 hitter who hit for power (by second base standards) but his OPS+ is a modest 104, depressed by his playing in an insanely high offensive era. He was a seven-time All Star. His only time on the HOF ballot he got just 2.1 percent of the vote, well short of the 5 percent needed to stay on. I am not aware of any PED use on his part. I guess another candidate for that bulging Hall of Very Good. |
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Post by BillyBones on Mar 2, 2023 22:33:49 GMT -5
Yes I know, you were still writing a fine piece when I posted my thought. I checked something else, and then back and was amused that we were having simultaneous thoughts about the DP partner. The variables may be too many for a definite correlation, but certainly the 2B listed by inger were among the elite for their day. Billy, at your leisure, I would be interested in knowing if you attended Pottstown High with the Ricketts brothers and Howie Bedell. You give us a perspective on the past that is unique, and I know a lot of us hope you will continue to contribute. Pipps; I am rather ashamed of myself as a youth. I was what would be referred to now as a troubled youth, I guess. The parent/home thing was not good, but most of the problem was me. This to my present chagrin and wish that it had been otherwise. I did attend Pottstown High, but left in my sophomore year to live with an Uncle in Chicago. I did not know them, but they may have well been there at the same time. I had few associations, mostly with others who didn't fit in. I joined the Navy when I was old enough, and found myself there. I had a job that I liked, and the military structure appealed to me, so I stayed for a career. Along the way, I got some of the education I had missed, but I am still rueful for not going on to college and perhaps becoming a Naval Officer. It is a truism that "too late we get smart". My Uncle in Chicago was a Cub fan, so I have some amount of love for the Cubbies. They were about equal in haplessness in baseball wins as the A's. At any rate, that is my story, and I do have some fond memories of Pottstown. regards. |
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Post by inger on Mar 2, 2023 22:56:54 GMT -5
Billy, at your leisure, I would be interested in knowing if you attended Pottstown High with the Ricketts brothers and Howie Bedell. You give us a perspective on the past that is unique, and I know a lot of us hope you will continue to contribute. Pipps; I am rather ashamed of myself as a youth. I was what would be referred to now as a troubled youth, I guess. The parent/home thing was not good, but most of the problem was me. This to my present chagrin and wish that it had been otherwise. I did attend Pottstown High, but left in my sophomore year to live with an Uncle in Chicago. I did not know them, but they may have well been there at the same time. I had few associations, mostly with others who didn't fit in. I joined the Navy when I was old enough, and found myself there. I had a job that I liked, and the military structure appealed to me, so I stayed for a career. Along the way, I got some of the education I had missed, but I am still rueful for not going on to college and perhaps becoming a Naval Officer. It is a truism that "too late we get smart". My Uncle in Chicago was a Cub fan, so I have some amount of love for the Cubbies. They were about equal in haplessness in baseball wins as the A's. At any rate, that is my story, and I do have some fond memories of Pottstown. regards. For me, Pottstown was a part of my sales territory when I was with a large propane company. I probably made a half dozen or more sales there… |
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Post by inger on Mar 2, 2023 23:10:48 GMT -5
On April 26, 1931, Lou Gehrig lost a home run from his career total when the ball bounced back onto the field, was fielded by Sam Rice of the Senators, and thrown back towards the infielders. Lyn Lary, who was on first base, thought the ball was caught so after rounding third he headed into the dugout. Gehrig touched home (passing the runner), was called out, and credited by the official scorer with a triple costing him a home run and eventually the exclusive home run title for the 1931 season...
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Post by inger on Mar 2, 2023 23:13:59 GMT -5
The Major League record for pitcher’s homers on a single season belongs to Wes Ferrell of the Cleveland Indians who slammed nine during the 1931 season.
I truly saddens me that this record is likely to remain unchallenged forever…
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Post by inger on Mar 2, 2023 23:20:10 GMT -5
On July 19, 1933, Rick Ferrell of the Red Sox played against his brother Wes Ferrell of the Indians. Each will hit a home run making this the first time brothers on opposing teams hit home runs during the same game...
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Post by inger on Mar 2, 2023 23:20:56 GMT -5
"I'm not a headline guy. I know that as long as I was following (Babe) Ruth to the plate I could have stood on my head and no one would have known the difference." - Lou Gehrig, 1933
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Post by pippsheadache on Mar 3, 2023 6:59:06 GMT -5
Billy, at your leisure, I would be interested in knowing if you attended Pottstown High with the Ricketts brothers and Howie Bedell. You give us a perspective on the past that is unique, and I know a lot of us hope you will continue to contribute. Pipps; I am rather ashamed of myself as a youth. I was what would be referred to now as a troubled youth, I guess. The parent/home thing was not good, but most of the problem was me. This to my present chagrin and wish that it had been otherwise. I did attend Pottstown High, but left in my sophomore year to live with an Uncle in Chicago. I did not know them, but they may have well been there at the same time. I had few associations, mostly with others who didn't fit in. I joined the Navy when I was old enough, and found myself there. I had a job that I liked, and the military structure appealed to me, so I stayed for a career. Along the way, I got some of the education I had missed, but I am still rueful for not going on to college and perhaps becoming a Naval Officer. It is a truism that "too late we get smart". My Uncle in Chicago was a Cub fan, so I have some amount of love for the Cubbies. They were about equal in haplessness in baseball wins as the A's. At any rate, that is my story, and I do have some fond memories of Pottstown. regards. Billy, it sounds as if you got a very valuable education in Life that has served you well. Wisdom comes from many sources. I just know your viewpoint brings a lot to this site. And spending part of your youth in Chicago -- not to mention the Navy -- sounds pretty interesting to me. Yeah, the Cubs of the 1950s were a pretty sorry lot -- Ernie Banks was about the only bright spot until they got a little smarter in the 60s signing guys like Billy Williams and Ron Santo and Glenn Beckert and Don Kessinger and fleecing the Phillies to get Fergie Jenkins. When I first started following baseball in the late 50s the Cubs best pitcher was a guy named Glen Hobbie, and he really wasn't all that good. Dick Drott and Moe Drabowsky were their "hopes" for the future. Even on the East Coast you could hear their games clearly (night road games only, of course) on WGN 720 with Bob Elson and Lou Boudreau at the mic. Again, thank you for the baseball history. |
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Post by inger on Mar 3, 2023 14:00:21 GMT -5
689 DP in 15,019 innings = .0458…
Remember the DP per innings chart from the other day? The leaders had a ratio about twice that many DP per inning played.
Who do you think this mystery second baseman might be? It’s none other than Johnny Evers of the famed Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance combination…
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