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Post by noetsi on Nov 25, 2019 20:35:54 GMT -5
I honestly don't see steroids as THAT big of a deal... that is sort of like saying if I use a metal bat when no one else does no one should consider I did that when they come to consider my value relative to other players. they were better players than they would have been because they use PED. Why should they get an advantage no one who didn't cheat gets. They believed obviously it made them better or they would not have risked their health (and commit federal crimes not just break baseball rules) to do so.
I think, as a separate issue, that values should be considered when voting for the HOF even if this has not occurred in the past.
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Post by sierchio on Nov 26, 2019 15:00:30 GMT -5
BUT a majority of the players were juiced... it's not like it was 5% or even 25%... it was a MAJORITY of the players that juiced..
Just juicing ain't gonna get you far, you still have to put in the work in the gym... it's not like Joe Blow off the street could roid up and become a good baseball player...
"Estimates of steroid use have varied wildly. Jose Canseco estimated that 85% of major leaguers were also using steroids. Ken Caminiti estimated that 50% of players were using steroids, but later retracted that claim and said that the number was lower"
I would GUESS.. and that's the best any of us can do... that 60% of players were juiced up prior to testing... and I think some of the gains, not all, from juicing were mental... it gives you more self confidence.. which leads to better results..
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HOF ballot
Nov 26, 2019 15:19:50 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by inger on Nov 26, 2019 15:19:50 GMT -5
There’s an earthquake. It’s estimated that 60% of the residents are looting homes and stores. Do you join them? ... Or do you jump in to help the 10% that have been injured?...
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Post by sierchio on Nov 26, 2019 15:47:30 GMT -5
I don't think that analogy applies to this situation
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Post by sierchio on Nov 26, 2019 15:47:58 GMT -5
And in that situation... I would be one of the 10% that got injured LOL
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Post by noetsi on Nov 26, 2019 17:20:14 GMT -5
BUT a majority of the players were juiced... it's not like it was 5% or even 25%... it was a MAJORITY of the players that juiced.. Just juicing ain't gonna get you far, you still have to put in the work in the gym... it's not like Joe Blow off the street could roid up and become a good baseball player... "Estimates of steroid use have varied wildly. Jose Canseco estimated that 85% of major leaguers were also using steroids. Ken Caminiti estimated that 50% of players were using steroids, but later retracted that claim and said that the number was lower" I would GUESS.. and that's the best any of us can do... that 60% of players were juiced up prior to testing... and I think some of the gains, not all, from juicing were mental... it gives you more self confidence.. which leads to better results.. No one has any fact based idea on how many did and did not use them. Or how much they were used. According to court testimony Bonds went to incredible levels to get and use new types of PED. |
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 7, 2019 1:13:08 GMT -5
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 7, 2019 8:01:06 GMT -5
This article lays out the case very well. His numbers easily bear comparison to other top-tier catchers in the HOF. Nice historical oddity that he and Bench and Fisk were all born in the same year. I like the article's concept of two Yankee captains going in this year. If it's a Munson and Jeter twofer, I might actually make an effort to get to the ceremony for the first time. |
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Post by inger on Dec 7, 2019 11:14:35 GMT -5
This article lays out the case very well. His numbers easily bear comparison to other top-tier catchers in the HOF. Nice historical oddity that he and Bench and Fisk were all born in the same year. I like the article's concept of two Yankee captains going in this year. If it's a Munson and Jeter twofer, I might actually make an effort to get to the ceremony for the first time. When I was doing my Yankee catcher rankings I was quite amazed at how much I had personally under rated Munson. I believe I was over-compensating to assure myself I wasn’t allowing him a Yankee bias. Perhaps I also wanted to assure myself he wasn’t getting my support because of the sympathetic emotional pull he had on me. There are reasons to say he doesn’t belong. For a HOF player, he has low milestone numbers. It’s hard to see him adding much to those numbers while playing at post 32 ages. He did appear to have entered an offensive decline phase at that point. There are plenty of reasons to support induction. His defensive work was excellent, his leadership so important to the success of the team. His peak time offensive numbers, and his work in the post-season. There are certainly less-deserving catchers in the HOF. There are certainly other players who primarily got in based on their defensive skills that didn’t hit nearly as well as Thurman. His is a case that is based on more than the lazy man’s offering of career BA, career hits and homers, or the deadly fallback of OPS. Yeah. Sorry, Thurman. I should have been on your side long ago. I’d sure vote you in now. In the end, if you make it, you’ll have gotten in the same way you played. You’ll have worked extra hard for it. That’ll just make it sweeter... |
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Post by greatfatness on Dec 7, 2019 13:55:09 GMT -5
This article lays out the case very well. His numbers easily bear comparison to other top-tier catchers in the HOF. Nice historical oddity that he and Bench and Fisk were all born in the same year. I like the article's concept of two Yankee captains going in this year. If it's a Munson and Jeter twofer, I might actually make an effort to get to the ceremony for the first time. Munson and Mattingly were my favorites. But I wouldn’t put him in the HOF. That said, MLB and the museum created this veterans committee as pretty much a way to put guys in who wouldn’t have been voted in on merits. If others are going to get in through the back door like Rice did for example, I don’t care if they let Munson in as well. They’re devaluing the honor over time but that’s not my issue. |
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Post by inger on Dec 7, 2019 15:01:42 GMT -5
This article lays out the case very well. His numbers easily bear comparison to other top-tier catchers in the HOF. Nice historical oddity that he and Bench and Fisk were all born in the same year. I like the article's concept of two Yankee captains going in this year. If it's a Munson and Jeter twofer, I might actually make an effort to get to the ceremony for the first time. Munson and Mattingly were my favorites. But I wouldn’t put him in the HOF. That said, MLB and the museum created this veterans committee as pretty much a way to put guys in who wouldn’t have been voted in on merits. If others are going to get in through the back door like Rice did for example, I don’t care if they let Munson in as well. They’re devaluing the honor over time but that’s not my issue. Sadly, that devaluation has already occurred. That probably has a lot to do with the change in my attitude over the past 40 years that allows me to justify induction. I wanted to keep borderline players out. Since I have no influence over whether players go in, and since time after time I’ve been stupefied watching lesser players turn a once-hallowed honor into a dumpster fire, I’ve lost any true passion I had for the place. Glad I saw it back in ‘98, when it still mattered. I wouldn’t go again if I was renting an apartment in the back room... |
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Post by chiyankee on Dec 7, 2019 16:24:40 GMT -5
Munson and Mattingly were my favorites. But I wouldn’t put him in the HOF. That said, MLB and the museum created this veterans committee as pretty much a way to put guys in who wouldn’t have been voted in on merits. If others are going to get in through the back door like Rice did for example, I don’t care if they let Munson in as well. They’re devaluing the honor over time but that’s not my issue. Sadly, that devaluation has already occurred. That probably has a lot to do with the change in my attitude over the past 40 years that allows me to justify induction. I wanted to keep borderline players out. Since I have no influence over whether players go in, and since time after time I’ve been stupefied watching lesser players turn a once-hallowed honor into a dumpster fire, I’ve lost any true passion I had for the place. Glad I saw it back in ‘98, when it still mattered. I wouldn’t go again if I was renting an apartment in the back room... The devaluation definitely has already begun, with it reaching a low point last year with Harold Baines getting elected. Nothing against Harold, who was a good hitter and great guy, but you can make a case that every player on this year's veteran committee's list is better than him. |
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Post by greatfatness on Dec 7, 2019 16:36:26 GMT -5
Sadly, that devaluation has already occurred. That probably has a lot to do with the change in my attitude over the past 40 years that allows me to justify induction. I wanted to keep borderline players out. Since I have no influence over whether players go in, and since time after time I’ve been stupefied watching lesser players turn a once-hallowed honor into a dumpster fire, I’ve lost any true passion I had for the place. Glad I saw it back in ‘98, when it still mattered. I wouldn’t go again if I was renting an apartment in the back room... The devaluation definitely has already begun, with it reaching a low point last year with Harold Baines getting elected. Nothing against Harold, who was a good hitter and great guy, but you can make a case that every player on this year's veteran committee's list is better than him. It doesn’t make much difference to me. It’s just a museum. |
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Post by inger on Dec 7, 2019 16:59:02 GMT -5
Put ‘em all in...
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 7, 2019 17:36:14 GMT -5
I guess I dissent somewhat from a completely dismissive attitude toward the Hall of Fame. I think if we really didn't care much about it, we (and really anybody who is a baseball fan) wouldn't spend so much time discussing it. There is no other sports Hall of Fame that generates nearly so much interest as the baseball HOF.
Of course there are players in there who wouldn't be if the standard was absolute Olympian performance. If say Willie Mays is the minimal standard, you could haul out the vast majority of plaques.
There is also the practical business matter that if you went several years without any inductions, public interest (not to mention the Cooperstown economy) would wane and the Hall would be little more than an esoteric office for stat geeks. More pure perhaps, but less likely to engage widespread public interest.
I don't take it all that seriously, but I do enjoy it, and I do think it's a pretty decent focal point for promoting the history of the game.
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