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Post by Max on Nov 20, 2024 13:05:43 GMT -5
I thought the Ali vs. Fraizer trilogy lived up to the hype and were the best fights I've ever seen, particularly 1 and 3. Oh for sure, the three Ali-Frazier tilts are the Gold Standard. Especially as you note one and three. I admit Smokin' Joe is my all-time favorite boxer -- my friends and I used to sometimes go to his gym in North Philly to watch the training sessions (son Mavis was among the trainees) -- Joe was within a hair of winning The Thrilla In Manila, Ali wanted Angelo Dundee to cut the gloves after round 14, but Joe was almost totally blinded at that point and his trainer Eddie Futch threw in the towel. The Ali-Norton fights were also classics. Kenny gave The Champ all he could handle. And obviously The Four Kings with their series of matches -- Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran. Epic rivalries. There were great middleweight rivalries in the 50s -- Sugar Ray Robinson, Jake LaMotta, Carmen Basilio, Gene Fulmer, Paul Pender, etc. An early sports memory for me was watching the Gillette Cavalcade Of Sports with my father and his friends with Basilio defeating Sugar Ray. All in glorious grainy black and white on a 20-inch Admiral TV. Maybe 35 or so years later I got to see Carmen Basilio in person at the International Boxing Hall of Fame near Syracuse discussing that very same fight. Such a thrill. Maybe we should have a boxing thread. So much history, so much good literature. Although my knowledge pretty much stops around the end of Mike Tyson's heyday. Rocky Graziano vs Tony Zale was another big rivalry. |
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Post by 1955nyyfan on Nov 20, 2024 14:24:24 GMT -5
I read somewhere that the movie Rocky was based on the fight between Ali and the Bayonne Bleeder, Chuck Wepner.
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 20, 2024 14:40:06 GMT -5
I read somewhere that the movie Rocky was based on the fight between Ali and the Bayonne Bleeder, Chuck Wepner. Yeah, I think Stallone acknowledged that the original film about Rocky Balboa was largely based on Chuck Wepner. Although obviously after that there were a lot of twists and turns that had nothing to do with Wepner. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 20, 2024 15:02:22 GMT -5
Hey Max, glad you remember those guys. Jimmy Young was one of my Philly pugilists I used to follow (along with his cousin, middleweight contender Bobby "Boogaloo" Watts.) He wasn't the smoothest fighter out there, but he managed to get tantalizingly close to the top. In addition to the Foreman bout, he narrowly lost decisions to Muhammad Ali and Ken Norton. Both of those fights could easily have been decided the other way. Cousin Boogaloo defeated Marvin Hagler early in Marvin's career in another controversial decision at The Spectrum in Philly. Probably some home cooking involved in that one. In my opinion, both Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle were underrated Boxers. I thought Jimmy Young won his fight vs Ken Norton. I'm an Ali fan, I always rooted for him even when it wasn't popular to do so. But, with that said, I thought he lost to Jimmy Young. Before Ali TKO'd Lyle many people including myself thought that Lyle was winning that fight.
Many years after the fight took place, I watched a classic fight between Jersey Joe Walcott and Joe Louis, in my opinion Walcott won that fight. I watched some of Two Ton Tony Galento's fights. Wow, he was tough. The fight I saw with the two biggest punchers is probably the Shavers vs Norton fight, which Shavers won. In my opinion, Shavers is probably the biggest puncher to never win a title fight.
Absolutely Max. Shavers had too many holes in his overall technique, but nobody wanted to deal with that punch. Thirty three first round knockouts! He fought Larry Holmes pretty well too. I loved watching Norton fight. Anything could happen with him. I don't know if you recall Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams, but he was another devastating puncher who never won a title. He fought Ali (still Cassius Clay at that time) when Ali was on his way to the title. People thought Williams would put an end to the Clay phenomenon because of his punching power. Of course like his later bouts with another crushing puncher Sonny Liston, the experts were slow to appreciate how effective that lightning fast counterpunching approach could be. Gene Tunney went through a somewhat similar evaluation almost forty years earlier. Tony Galento fights are fun to watch. Not a lot of style points, but very entertaining. Yeah, toward the end of his run The Brown Bomber got some favorable scoring. But man in his prime he was incredible. So perfectly balanced and with a formidable left jab, maybe the best ever. Jersey Joe was a fine boxer who was quite old by the time he claimed the crown. He fought valiantly against Rocky Marciano when The Rock took the title. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 20, 2024 15:41:45 GMT -5
Oh for sure, the three Ali-Frazier tilts are the Gold Standard. Especially as you note one and three. I admit Smokin' Joe is my all-time favorite boxer -- my friends and I used to sometimes go to his gym in North Philly to watch the training sessions (son Mavis was among the trainees) -- Joe was within a hair of winning The Thrilla In Manila, Ali wanted Angelo Dundee to cut the gloves after round 14, but Joe was almost totally blinded at that point and his trainer Eddie Futch threw in the towel. The Ali-Norton fights were also classics. Kenny gave The Champ all he could handle. And obviously The Four Kings with their series of matches -- Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran. Epic rivalries. There were great middleweight rivalries in the 50s -- Sugar Ray Robinson, Jake LaMotta, Carmen Basilio, Gene Fulmer, Paul Pender, etc. An early sports memory for me was watching the Gillette Cavalcade Of Sports with my father and his friends with Basilio defeating Sugar Ray. All in glorious grainy black and white on a 20-inch Admiral TV. Maybe 35 or so years later I got to see Carmen Basilio in person at the International Boxing Hall of Fame near Syracuse discussing that very same fight. Such a thrill. Maybe we should have a boxing thread. So much history, so much good literature. Although my knowledge pretty much stops around the end of Mike Tyson's heyday. Rocky Graziano vs Tony Zale was another big rivalry. Yep, Graziano-Zale was one of the great trilogies too. Two hard-hitting middleweight brawlers. I don't think they have complete footage of the first two fights, which were the best. Rocky was of course a showman -- it seemed like after his career he was always showing up on talk shows -- and I remember the TV ads for Post Raisin Bran and Wishbone Italian Dressing and Absorbine Jr. We lived in Syracuse for two long years, but one place that helped ease the pain was the International Boxing Hall Of Fame. Carmen Basilio lived nearby and was a constant presence there, narrating old fight films or just hanging out. One time when I was there Tony Zale was the special guest, arriving in a wheelchair (this would have been probably 1991.) He was just as upbeat as could be and seemed to be old friends with Basilio. They just swapped a lot of anecdotes (it was an organized program, not simply Zale dropping by.) Tony paid homage to Rocky and spoke of his ability to take a punch. Carmen talked about Sugar Ray Robinson being such a great ring artist, but you could tell he didn't like him. It was startling to see how small these guys were. Okay, Zale was in a wheelchair, but he was only 5'7 and Basilio was 5'6". But both of them had enormous hands. Basilio was a really good natured guy and an excellent raconteur. I haven't been there in ages, but at least back in the day the Boxing HOF was well worth a visit. It had a great collection of memorabilia going back at least to John L. Sullivan. |
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Post by rizzuto on Nov 20, 2024 19:18:14 GMT -5
Hey Max, glad you remember those guys. Jimmy Young was one of my Philly pugilists I used to follow (along with his cousin, middleweight contender Bobby "Boogaloo" Watts.) He wasn't the smoothest fighter out there, but he managed to get tantalizingly close to the top. In addition to the Foreman bout, he narrowly lost decisions to Muhammad Ali and Ken Norton. Both of those fights could easily have been decided the other way. Cousin Boogaloo defeated Marvin Hagler early in Marvin's career in another controversial decision at The Spectrum in Philly. Probably some home cooking involved in that one. In my opinion, both Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle were underrated Boxers. I thought Jimmy Young won his fight vs Ken Norton. I'm an Ali fan, I always rooted for him even when it wasn't popular to do so. But, with that said, I thought he lost to Jimmy Young. Before Ali TKO'd Lyle many people including myself thought that Lyle was winning that fight.
Many years after the fight took place, I watched a classic fight between Jersey Joe Walcott and Joe Louis, in my opinion Walcott won that fight. I watched some of Two Ton Tony Galento's fights. Wow, he was tough. The fight I saw with the two biggest punchers is probably the Shavers vs Norton fight, which Shavers won. In my opinion, Shavers is probably the biggest puncher to never win a title fight.
Jimmy Young was an excellent boxer, but I don't think the judges appreciated Young continually putting his head outside the ring between the top and second ropes. Unlike most of his fights, Ali was the aggressor and attempted to use his size against Young in close and against the ropes. A very close decision, but Young should have fought more aggressively as the much younger fighter. |
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Post by rizzuto on Nov 20, 2024 19:28:08 GMT -5
In my opinion, both Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle were underrated Boxers. I thought Jimmy Young won his fight vs Ken Norton. I'm an Ali fan, I always rooted for him even when it wasn't popular to do so. But, with that said, I thought he lost to Jimmy Young. Before Ali TKO'd Lyle many people including myself thought that Lyle was winning that fight.
Many years after the fight took place, I watched a classic fight between Jersey Joe Walcott and Joe Louis, in my opinion Walcott won that fight. I watched some of Two Ton Tony Galento's fights. Wow, he was tough. The fight I saw with the two biggest punchers is probably the Shavers vs Norton fight, which Shavers won. In my opinion, Shavers is probably the biggest puncher to never win a title fight.
Absolutely Max. Shavers had too many holes in his overall technique, but nobody wanted to deal with that punch. Thirty three first round knockouts! He fought Larry Holmes pretty well too. I loved watching Norton fight. Anything could happen with him. I don't know if you recall Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams, but he was another devastating puncher who never won a title. He fought Ali (still Cassius Clay at that time) when Ali was on his way to the title. People thought Williams would put an end to the Clay phenomenon because of his punching power. Of course like his later bouts with another crushing puncher Sonny Liston, the experts were slow to appreciate how effective that lightning fast counterpunching approach could be. Gene Tunney went through a somewhat similar evaluation almost forty years earlier. Tony Galento fights are fun to watch. Not a lot of style points, but very entertaining. Yeah, toward the end of his run The Brown Bomber got some favorable scoring. But man in his prime he was incredible. So perfectly balanced and with a formidable left jab, maybe the best ever. Jersey Joe was a fine boxer who was quite old by the time he claimed the crown. He fought valiantly against Rocky Marciano when The Rock took the title. Cassius Clay against Cleveland Williams was one of Ali's best performances in my opinion. At the time, I think most casual boxing fans didn't realize how big and broad shouldered Ali was until they saw him standing in the ring next to Cleveland Williams and then Sonny Liston. Yet, still, the hand speed of a much smaller class of fighter. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 20, 2024 19:30:55 GMT -5
In my opinion, both Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle were underrated Boxers. I thought Jimmy Young won his fight vs Ken Norton. I'm an Ali fan, I always rooted for him even when it wasn't popular to do so. But, with that said, I thought he lost to Jimmy Young. Before Ali TKO'd Lyle many people including myself thought that Lyle was winning that fight.
Many years after the fight took place, I watched a classic fight between Jersey Joe Walcott and Joe Louis, in my opinion Walcott won that fight. I watched some of Two Ton Tony Galento's fights. Wow, he was tough. The fight I saw with the two biggest punchers is probably the Shavers vs Norton fight, which Shavers won. In my opinion, Shavers is probably the biggest puncher to never win a title fight.
Jimmy Young was an excellent boxer, but I don't think the judges appreciated Young continually putting his head outside the ring between the top and second ropes. Unlike most of his fights, Ali was the aggressor and attempted to use his size against Young in close and against the ropes. A very close decision, but Young should have fought more aggressively as the much younger fighter. Good recall on that Rizz. I wasn't thinking of that tactic but your analysis sounds solid. It seemed like there was always compelling boxing going on in those days. One guy who seemed like he was always on my screen was the Canadian heavyweight George Chuvalo. Probably a few years before your time. He fought all the top heavyweights of his time, and even though he always stalled out a few rungs from the top, he was never knocked down in his entire career. |
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Post by Renfield on Nov 20, 2024 22:50:44 GMT -5
What? No love for Jerry Quarry? An apparent hemophiliac, yet somehow always seemed to be ranked 5th and was the mandatory tune-up for a title fight. He may have been a decent fighter, but he seemed like the boxing equivalent of the Washington Generals to me.
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 21, 2024 7:38:32 GMT -5
What? No love for Jerry Quarry? An apparent hemophiliac, yet somehow always seemed to be ranked 5th and was the mandatory tune-up for a title fight. He may have been a decent fighter, but he seemed like the boxing equivalent of the Washington Generals to me. Irish Jerry Quarry. He was always the available man. He defeated an aging Floyd Patterson (seems like everyone did) and other top contenders like the aforementioned Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle as well as other familiar names from that era like Buster Mathis and Thad Spencer and Oscar "Ringo" Bonavena. But he couldn't handle the likes of Ali or Frazier, each of whom defeated him twice. I think those high-profile televised fights are why he is remembered so vividly. I always gave Quarry credit for being the only one of the Top Ten-ranked contenders to agree to fight Muhammad Ali when Ali's career resumed in 1970. He was also part of that eight-man box-off to determine a new champion after Ali was forced out. If memory serves Ernie Terrell won that playoff, which Joe Frazier sat out before attaining the belt himself. Remember Jerry's brother Mike was a light-heavyweight contender himself. Both of them died way too young from boxing related brain damage. I remember Jerry Quarry being in an episode of "I Dream Of Jeannie." Hard to believe that Jerry Quarry and Doctor Bellows crossed paths. And as an aside (since this is a TV thread) I always found Mrs. Bellows kind of sneaky hot for an "older" woman. Philly girl Emmaline Henry, who was earlier in an obscure sitcom called "I'm Dickens, He's Fenster" which starred John Astin and Marty Ingels as bumbling carpenters. Anybody else remember that one? |
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Post by desousa on Nov 21, 2024 8:38:29 GMT -5
What? No love for Jerry Quarry? An apparent hemophiliac, yet somehow always seemed to be ranked 5th and was the mandatory tune-up for a title fight. He may have been a decent fighter, but he seemed like the boxing equivalent of the Washington Generals to me. Irish Jerry Quarry. He was always the available man. He defeated an aging Floyd Patterson (seems like everyone did) and other top contenders like the aforementioned Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle as well as other familiar names from that era like Buster Mathis and Thad Spencer and Oscar "Ringo" Bonavena. But he couldn't handle the likes of Ali or Frazier, each of whom defeated him twice. I think those high-profile televised fights are why he is remembered so vividly. I always gave Quarry credit for being the only one of the Top Ten-ranked contenders to agree to fight Muhammad Ali when Ali's career resumed in 1970. He was also part of that eight-man box-off to determine a new champion after Ali was forced out. If memory serves Ernie Terrell won that playoff, which Joe Frazier sat out before attaining the belt himself. Remember Jerry's brother Mike was a light-heavyweight contender himself. Both of them died way too young from boxing related brain damage. I remember Jerry Quarry being in an episode of "I Dream Of Jeannie." Hard to believe that Jerry Quarry and Doctor Bellows crossed paths. And as an aside (since this is a TV thread) I always found Mrs. Bellows kind of sneaky hot for an "older" woman. Philly girl Emmaline Henry, who was earlier in an obscure sitcom called "I'm Dickens, He's Fenster" which starred John Astin and Marty Ingels as bumbling carpenters. Anybody else remember that one? I actually watched some clips from "I'm Dickens, He's Fenster" a few years ago and didn't find it very funny. John Astin made a pretty good living on television and was still working into the 2000s. Marty Ingels worked a lot during the 60's and 70's, then disappeared in the 80's, but came back in the 90's and worked here and there until his death in 2015. Ingels was married to Shirley Jones for almost 40 years, so I believe she was the primary bread winner. Emmaline Henry was also in "Rosemary's Baby" and was still appearing in many TV shows all through the 70's until her death in 1979 at the age of 50. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 21, 2024 9:54:01 GMT -5
Irish Jerry Quarry. He was always the available man. He defeated an aging Floyd Patterson (seems like everyone did) and other top contenders like the aforementioned Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle as well as other familiar names from that era like Buster Mathis and Thad Spencer and Oscar "Ringo" Bonavena. But he couldn't handle the likes of Ali or Frazier, each of whom defeated him twice. I think those high-profile televised fights are why he is remembered so vividly. I always gave Quarry credit for being the only one of the Top Ten-ranked contenders to agree to fight Muhammad Ali when Ali's career resumed in 1970. He was also part of that eight-man box-off to determine a new champion after Ali was forced out. If memory serves Ernie Terrell won that playoff, which Joe Frazier sat out before attaining the belt himself. Remember Jerry's brother Mike was a light-heavyweight contender himself. Both of them died way too young from boxing related brain damage. I remember Jerry Quarry being in an episode of "I Dream Of Jeannie." Hard to believe that Jerry Quarry and Doctor Bellows crossed paths. And as an aside (since this is a TV thread) I always found Mrs. Bellows kind of sneaky hot for an "older" woman. Philly girl Emmaline Henry, who was earlier in an obscure sitcom called "I'm Dickens, He's Fenster" which starred John Astin and Marty Ingels as bumbling carpenters. Anybody else remember that one? I actually watched some clips from "I'm Dickens, He's Fenster" a few years ago and didn't find it very funny. John Astin made a pretty good living on television and was still working into the 2000s. Marty Ingels worked a lot during the 60's and 70's, then disappeared in the 80's, but came back in the 90's and worked here and there until his death in 2015. Ingels was married to Shirley Jones for almost 40 years, so I believe she was the primary bread winner. Emmaline Henry was also in "Rosemary's Baby" and was still appearing in many TV shows all through the 70's until her death in 1979 at the age of 50. Yeah, the bad shows far outnumber the good ones. They can't all be "The Hathaways."😉 Glad somebody else even remembers Dickens-Fenster. Some other not-funny comedies from around that time were "McKeever And The Colonel" (set in a boys military academy with a pre-Uncle Fester Jackie Coogan) and "Room For One More" (about a family that adopted something like eight kids starring omnipresent character actor Andrew Duggan) and "Ensign O'Toole" (starring a pre-Herbie The Love Bug Dean Jones.) How about "Grindl" starring old Sid Caesar sidekick Imogene Coca as a maid. There were hundreds of them, and one thing they all had in common was that they all were able to convince a network to put them on the air. "My Mother The Car" has lots of company at the bottom of the barrel. |
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Post by 1955nyyfan on Nov 21, 2024 10:36:11 GMT -5
I'm not sure when the show ran but does anyone remember Celebrity Boxing? They had several bouts with b actors or minor celebrities and I think they fought three round matches. I remember Danny Bonaduce fought Barry Williams and Tanya Harding fought someone. It was so bad but it was also like the accident you had to take a peek at.
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Post by pippsheadache on Nov 21, 2024 11:53:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure when the show ran but does anyone remember Celebrity Boxing? They had several bouts with b actors or minor celebrities and I think they fought three round matches. I remember Danny Bonaduce fought Barry Williams and Tanya Harding fought someone. It was so bad but it was also like the accident you had to take a peek at. Man, that took trash TV to a whole new low. It was brief Bill Clinton throwaway fling Paula Jones who entered the ring with the demure Tonya. I never actually saw it but it got a lot of press coverage. There was also a claymation faux boxing show I believe called "Celebrity Death Match" or something like that. Referee Mills Lane provided the voiceover in matches where animated celebrities dismembered each other. And to think that back in the 70s we thought "Battle Of The Network Stars" was the ultimate in garbage television. |
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Post by desousa on Nov 21, 2024 12:05:51 GMT -5
I actually watched some clips from "I'm Dickens, He's Fenster" a few years ago and didn't find it very funny. John Astin made a pretty good living on television and was still working into the 2000s. Marty Ingels worked a lot during the 60's and 70's, then disappeared in the 80's, but came back in the 90's and worked here and there until his death in 2015. Ingels was married to Shirley Jones for almost 40 years, so I believe she was the primary bread winner. Emmaline Henry was also in "Rosemary's Baby" and was still appearing in many TV shows all through the 70's until her death in 1979 at the age of 50. Yeah, the bad shows far outnumber the good ones. They can't all be "The Hathaways."😉 Glad somebody else even remembers Dickens-Fenster. Some other not-funny comedies from around that time were "McKeever And The Colonel" (set in a boys military academy with a pre-Uncle Fester Jackie Coogan) and "Room For One More" (about a family that adopted something like eight kids starring omnipresent character actor Andrew Duggan) and "Ensign O'Toole" (starring a pre-Herbie The Love Bug Dean Jones.) How about "Grindl" starring old Sid Caesar sidekick Imogene Coca as a maid. There were hundreds of them, and one thing they all had in common was that they all were able to convince a network to put them on the air. "My Mother The Car" has lots of company at the bottom of the barrel. Ah yes, "The Hathaways". We watched "McKeever and the Colonel". I remember liking it, but I was 7. I don't remember "Room For One More" or "Grind". I vaguely remember "Ensign O'Toole" mostly because it starred Dean Jones. |
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