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HOF 2021
Dec 5, 2021 21:51:15 GMT -5
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Post by inger on Dec 5, 2021 21:51:15 GMT -5
Dick Allen was a far more impactful player than Gil Hodges. Nothing but respect for Gil, who was a very good player and an even better person. But Allen was a monster. His career stats are full of black ink in significant offensive categories; Hodges is essentially blank. Gil was a much better defensive player than Dick, no question. But as a first baseman, that meant far less than it would have at some other position. Dick Allen was one of the most gifted sluggers I have ever personally witnessed. For sure, he squandered some of that talent with the bottle and his personality quirks irked the media of his day. But with all of that, he did more to deserve HOF status than Hodges. Oliva should have been in long ago, his numbers are a sea of black ink. Minoso was legendary. Jim Kaat? Love the guy. I wouldn't rain on his parade, and he did win 286 games (and lost a lot too.) But not much black ink, and most of it came in a single season, 1966. A career ERA+ of 108. Pettitte, who is often considered borderline, was at 119. Schilling was 127 and had plenty of black ink and a far better WHIP, as well as being arguably the best post-season starting pitcher of his era. But I'm happy for Kitty to get this at age 83 and I am sure he will give an outstanding acceptance speech. There is something to be said for longevity, and there are less-deserving pitchers in there for sure. Spot on regarding Dick Allen over Gil Hodges, Pipps. Kaat’s career line has improved with age, as I was much more reticent toward his election years ago. No doubt my lowering the bar for him is due to my enjoyment of his color commentary over the years, and I really like the good-naturedness of the guy. Schilling’s career numbers, particularly ERA, benefited from his tenure in the National League in much the same manner as Pettitte’s were inflated from a career in the American League East. Pettitte’s three-year stint in Houston produced a 3.38 ERA, a half-run lower than his time in Pinstripes at 3.94. Schilling’s five-year term in Boston produced a 3.95 ERA, essentially a half-run increase over his 3.35 ERA in Philly. Years ago, I did a statistical dive in the comparison of the two, arguing that if Schilling ever got into the Hall of Fame, then Pettitte was deserving as well. Pettitte managed a lineup like hurlers of the 1970s, pitching around guys who hurt him to attack players with whom his cutter would produce a ground ball. WHIP is such a relatively new measurement and perhaps less meaningful in decades past because of that philosophy of pitching. There were some brutal DH types in the AL of the 1990s that just are not prevalent in the game of recent years. Stanton was the best of the bunch last season. Where are all the big bats like Jim Thome, Ortiz, Edgar, The Big Hurt, and Giambi? A lot of those big bats we saw for a while we on mother’s little helpers, whereas since they’re eating Campbells chicken noodle soup… |
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HOF 2021
Dec 6, 2021 7:26:41 GMT -5
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 6, 2021 7:26:41 GMT -5
Rizz and Inger, I agree with both of you on Kaat when it comes to how his performance as an analyst makes it that much easier to be glad to see him in the HOF. He's one of my favorites as well both for his substantive insights and the sly humor he injects into the broadcasts. I wish I could remember who he was referring to when he described a player as "a lowball hitter and a highball drinker."
Rizz, on Schilling, remember he was 37 years old and presumably on a downward arc when he came to Boston. And he still did pretty well in his early time there.
As for Hodges -- and again I am a fan of his -- he was at most the fifth-best position player on some undeniably great Brooklyn Dodgers teams. Behind Robinson, Snider, Campanella and Reese for sure. Maybe he edges out Furillo. That's not to say that a really great team can't have that many position players who are HOF-worthy -- the Yankees of the late 1920s to early 1930s have Ruth, Gehrig, Lazzeri, Dickey and Combs. I guess he gets extra credit for managing the 1969 Mets.
I know my attitude toward Allen is shaped by having watched him play in person so many times. He was an electrifying presence and he hit titanic blasts, the kind Mantle hit or the kind Stanton hits now. Allen had his share of outstanding numbers, no question, but to me he's one of those players who, no matter how illogical it may be, the numbers don't capture. I felt the same way, even more so, about Clemente. I suppose it's flair. I love flair. Or maybe it's good old je ne sais quoi. Who among us can resist je ne sais quoi?
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HOF 2021
Dec 6, 2021 9:37:37 GMT -5
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Post by inger on Dec 6, 2021 9:37:37 GMT -5
Rizz and Inger, I agree with both of you on Kaat when it comes to how his performance as an analyst makes it that much easier to be glad to see him in the HOF. He's one of my favorites as well both for his substantive insights and the sly humor he injects into the broadcasts. I wish I could remember who he was referring to when he described a player as "a lowball hitter and a highball drinker." Rizz, on Schilling, remember he was 37 years old and presumably on a downward arc when he came to Boston. And he still did pretty well in his early time there. As for Hodges -- and again I am a fan of his -- he was at most the fifth-best position player on some undeniably great Brooklyn Dodgers teams. Behind Robinson, Snider, Campanella and Reese for sure. Maybe he edges out Furillo. That's not to say that a really great team can't have that many position players who are HOF-worthy -- the Yankees of the late 1920s to early 1930s have Ruth, Gehrig, Lazzeri, Dickey and Combs. I guess he gets extra credit for managing the 1969 Mets. I know my attitude toward Allen is shaped by having watched him play in person so many times. He was an electrifying presence and he hit titanic blasts, the kind Mantle hit or the kind Stanton hits now. Allen had his share of outstanding numbers, no question, but to me he's one of those players who, no matter how illogical it may be, the numbers don't capture. I felt the same way, even more so, about Clemente. I suppose it's flair. I love flair. Or maybe it's good old je ne sais quoi. Who among us can resist je ne sais quoi? I used to hope Jenny would say “oui”… but alas, it was never to be… |
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 6, 2021 19:22:07 GMT -5
I know my attitude toward Allen is shaped by having watched him play in person so many times. He was an electrifying presence and he hit titanic blasts, the kind Mantle hit or the kind Stanton hits now. Allen had his share of outstanding numbers, no question, but to me he's one of those players who, no matter how illogical it may be, the numbers don't capture. I felt the same way, even more so, about Clemente. I suppose it's flair. I love flair. Or maybe it's good old je ne sais quoi. Who among us can resist je ne sais quoi? I used to hope Jenny would say “oui”… but alas, it was never to be… Don't feel bad, Inger. She turned me down too. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 6, 2021 19:48:09 GMT -5
I did a little more digging around on the Dick Allen HOF business. His career OPS+ of 156 is higher than all but four 20th century or later players not in Cooperstown -- Mike Trout, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and Joe Jackson. Trout obviously is still active, Jackson is ineligible, and Bonds and McGwire -- well, we know about that situation. Allen is tied with Frank Thomas in that category. And one ahead of what you might call a pretty fair quartet tied at 155 -- Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Joe DiMaggio and Mel Ott. The next highest OPS+ not in the Hall is Charlie Keller's 152. Maybe they should go in as a package next year. In case you missed his recording career, here is something he did in 1968 that got played in Philly but probably not anywhere else: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJDDs7ohpJk It was recorded under the name Rich Allen and The Ebonistics on the immortal Groovy Grooves label. Note the label mis-spelling of Echoes. That's never good. Allen hated being called Richie, which was how he was known early in his career, but figured nobody would know who it was if he went by what he was called everywhere but in the media, so he compromised with Rich. I saw these guys do this song at halftime of a 76ers-Celtics game at The Spectrum in 1968. Bill Russell versus Wilt Chamberlin. John Havlicek versus Billy Cunningham. Sam Jones versus Hal Greer. All in the Hall. Titans strode the Earth in those days, my friends. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 6, 2021 19:59:29 GMT -5
These two also got in, too bad neither are alive to enjoy it. EDIT: Fowler died in 1913, long before there was a HOF, so I guess we can excuse that one. I knew nothing about Bud Fowler, but some interesting things about him. He was a 19th century black player who spent ten seasons playing on racially integrated teams in the minor leagues. Attention Inger -- one of those teams was the 1885 Pueblo Pasttimes of the Colorado State League. A conversation starter next time you drop into a local tavern. We will look forward to some pictures from the site. Also, Fowler actually grew up in Cooperstown. I guess you can't really call it a hometown decision since it took place 108 years after his death. I am assuming he got in under the pioneer category because statistical records are pretty sparse. |
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HOF 2021
Dec 6, 2021 21:20:28 GMT -5
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Post by inger on Dec 6, 2021 21:20:28 GMT -5
These two also got in, too bad neither are alive to enjoy it. EDIT: Fowler died in 1913, long before there was a HOF, so I guess we can excuse that one. I knew nothing about Bud Fowler, but some interesting things about him. He was a 19th century black player who spent ten seasons playing on racially integrated teams in the minor leagues. Attention Inger -- one of those teams was the 1885 Pueblo Pasttimes of the Colorado State League. A conversation starter next time you drop into a local tavern. We will look forward to some pictures from the site. Also, Fowler actually grew up in Cooperstown. I guess you can't really call it a hometown decision since it took place 108 years after his death. I am assuming he got in under the pioneer category because statistical records are pretty sparse. Interesting that Bud Fowler has roots here. There’s probably some big building where the ballpark used to be, although Pueblo is actually still a pretty small town… something like 10-12 miles worth of highway exits and it’s done… |
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HOF 2021
Dec 6, 2021 22:11:49 GMT -5
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Post by inger on Dec 6, 2021 22:11:49 GMT -5
I knew nothing about Bud Fowler, but some interesting things about him. He was a 19th century black player who spent ten seasons playing on racially integrated teams in the minor leagues. Attention Inger -- one of those teams was the 1885 Pueblo Pasttimes of the Colorado State League. A conversation starter next time you drop into a local tavern. We will look forward to some pictures from the site. Also, Fowler actually grew up in Cooperstown. I guess you can't really call it a hometown decision since it took place 108 years after his death. I am assuming he got in under the pioneer category because statistical records are pretty sparse. Interesting that Bud Fowler has roots here. There’s probably some big building where the ballpark used to be, although Pueblo is actually still a pretty small town… something like 10-12 miles worth of highway exits and it’s done… The Pueblo Pastimes were 11-9 in their only season of existence in 1885. No idea where the ball field was so far… I have a feeling that it may be long forgotten… |
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 7, 2021 2:19:00 GMT -5
Interesting that Bud Fowler has roots here. There’s probably some big building where the ballpark used to be, although Pueblo is actually still a pretty small town… something like 10-12 miles worth of highway exits and it’s done… The Pueblo Pastimes were 11-9 in their only season of existence in 1885. No idea where the ball field was so far… I have a feeling that it may be long forgotten… Pastime will always make me think of The Pastime Bar and Restaurant in Baton Rouge: www.pastimerestaurant.comPizza, Poboys, and ice cold beverages. |
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 8, 2021 1:52:57 GMT -5
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 8, 2021 6:02:30 GMT -5
Wonderful anecdotes from his colleagues. It's nice to see such a good guy being honored. |
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HOF 2021
Dec 8, 2021 23:49:01 GMT -5
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Post by inger on Dec 8, 2021 23:49:01 GMT -5
Personally, I don’t think announcers belong in the same Hall of Fame as the players. Nor do executives, owners, popcorn vendors, grounds crew members, or the rest room cleaning staff. I also think that having a Veterans Committee over ride years of voting cheapened the joint to a horrible degree and dropped the standards to the Harold Baines level.
That said, I like Kitty Kaat. I really liked him as a pitcher and as an announcer. Since those tools do exist, I’m ecstatic for him
personally…
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Post by inger on Dec 8, 2021 23:51:48 GMT -5
The Pueblo Pastimes were 11-9 in their only season of existence in 1885. No idea where the ball field was so far… I have a feeling that it may be long forgotten… Pastime will always make me think of The Pastime Bar and Restaurant in Baton Rouge: www.pastimerestaurant.comPizza, Poboys, and ice cold beverages. Tell me about poboys. I think you already did, but the old brain cavity has developed a leak or three in recent years. What was once a sponge is now a sieve. I know I could look them up, but I prefer your homespun Louisiana description and additional details… |
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 9, 2021 0:37:40 GMT -5
Pastime will always make me think of The Pastime Bar and Restaurant in Baton Rouge: www.pastimerestaurant.comPizza, Poboys, and ice cold beverages. Tell me about poboys. I think you already did, but the old brain cavity has developed a leak or three in recent years. What was once a sponge is now a sieve. I know I could look them up, but I prefer your homespun Louisiana description and additional details… It’s a sandwich, similar to a sub or a hoagie, except it uses French bread that should be flakey on the outside and soft on the inside. They usually are equipped with fried or grilled seafood, like gulf shrimp, oysters, or catfish. Occasionally, soft shell crab or crawfish. Other popular ones are roast beef, ham, turkey, or sausage. Combinations are not uncommon these days. Generally, they are “dressed” with mayo or aoili or remoulade, shredded lettuce and tomato. Non seafood may have pickles, various cheeses, au jus or gravy, mustard, peppers, etc. Hot sauces are often used by the customer at the table. Below is a BBQ shrimp poboy that has not been dressed. To each his own! Poboys require lots of paper towels or napkins, as they are loaded inside, with shrimp - for example - spilling out on wax paper to be retrieved with your fingers in between bites. The one below has been too carefully presented and is unusually and overly neat, no doubt for the photo.  Here’s a typical fried shrimp Poboy from Parkway Bakery, which was Sarah’s favorites:  Sarah also loved the Parkway roast beef Poboy:  |
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Post by inger on Dec 9, 2021 0:53:08 GMT -5
Tell me about poboys. I think you already did, but the old brain cavity has developed a leak or three in recent years. What was once a sponge is now a sieve. I know I could look them up, but I prefer your homespun Louisiana description and additional details… It’s a sandwich, similar to a sub or a hoagie, except it uses French bread that should be flakey on the outside and soft on the inside. They usually are equipped with fried or grilled seafood, like gulf shrimp, oysters, or catfish. Occasionally, soft shell crab or crawfish. Other popular ones are roast beef, ham, turkey, or sausage. Combinations are not uncommon these days. Generally, they are “dressed” with mayo or aoili or remoulade, shredded lettuce and tomato. Non seafood may have pickles, various cheeses, au jus or gravy, mustard, peppers, etc. Hot sauces are often used by the customer at the table. Below is a BBQ shrimp poboy that has not been dressed. To each his own! Poboys require lots of paper towels or napkins, as they are loaded inside, with shrimp - for example - spilling out on wax paper to be retrieved with your fingers in between bites. The one below has been too carefully presented and is unusually and overly neat, no doubt for the photo. Here’s a typical fried shrimp Poboy from Parkway Bakery, which was Sarah’s favorites: I could definitely handle some of that. Of course you realize there would be some condiment adjustments required. Shrimp is always on my favorites list and some of those variations would work to, but shrimp would be very high on the list, with crab a close second. Seafood is one of the few things Ruthie doesn’t care for, so I seek it out often when we go out… |
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