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Post by inger on May 4, 2018 14:44:12 GMT -5
Nice list, because so many over-rate Bench's offensive tool set...Of course, like many catcher, the nicks, cuts, and bruises didn't help him... Was Bench's offensive tool set really overrated though? During his peak, no other catcher was even close statistically. If his era is the point of reference, how can he be considered overrated? I dont think anyone tries to argue that hes Clemente or Reggie Jackson...but at his position he has to be considered first in class by far (in his era). Let's rephrase, re-evaluate a bit. During Johnny Bench's peak seven years he was surely the player that anyone in their right mind would love to have behind the plate. So, like many catchers, his peak was short. But, yeah...with his defensive skills added in, he surely one of the top four or five catchers of all time during his peak seven years. During the years from 1969-1975 he was a monster that averaged : 151G 564AB 89R 154H 28D 2T 32HR 110RBI 6SB .273/.349/.500 (135+OPS). He stayed at catcher for two more seasons before beginning to move around to play more first and third base to stay in the lineup. In 1977 he posted one final 31+ HR season, but in between he slumped badly to .234 with 16HR.
If we look at his numbers from age 30 on, he's still showing that he can play the game, but moving off catcher definitely decreased his value as he averaged:
115G 383AB 50R 100H 18D 1T 19HR 65RBI 4 SB .264/.341/.459 (119+OPS). He was not even an average fielder at 1B, 3B, or the outfield corners.
Even during his peak years, Bench slumped to .238/27/61 in 1971...
So, Bench was not chopped liver, for certain...but I don't think he was CONSISTENTLY one of the all time offensive greats in the game. When we had positional consideration and compare his numbers more by OPS+, ignoring the "slow down" years and even a couple of "slump seasons" that may have been driven by injury he fares much better. Yet, numbers are numbers when we speak strictly of the offense. Few will mention Mike Napoli, Victor Martinez, Chris Hoiles, etc. in the same hushed tones they do Johnny Bench. Perhaps that's the reason I used the term over rated...
One final note: The stats shown are total career stats, not stats that were posted strictly at the catcher position... |
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Post by kaybli on May 4, 2018 15:30:29 GMT -5
Was Bench's offensive tool set really overrated though? During his peak, no other catcher was even close statistically. If his era is the point of reference, how can he be considered overrated? I dont think anyone tries to argue that hes Clemente or Reggie Jackson...but at his position he has to be considered first in class by far (in his era). well...by far?.....I agree Bench was first, but wasn't Fisk a pretty close second?.......and if Munson had finished a normal career?.......which makes me wonder how Thurman is not showing up on this list......... Munson would be 79th on that list sorted by OPS with an OPS of .756 |
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Post by inger on May 4, 2018 23:07:49 GMT -5
With catching being such an important defensive position, you have to say that Bench is in an elite class overall...Of course the list we're perusing doesn't even mention Ivan Rodriguez, who was certainly a world class thrower
and defender. If I have to name my top five catchers EVER...and this is not as easy as it seems...
#1. Bill Dickey
#2. Mickey Cochrane
#3. Yogi Berra
#4. Johnny Bench
#5. Ivan Rodriguez
Rodriguez may not rank with the greatest offensively, but a good portion of the reason was that he played so far beyond his prime. Yes, I would take him ahead of Fisk. Fisk was tough as nails, but he was never a great throwing catcher. I also give Ivan Rodriguez a rather remarkable 11-year prime from 1994-2004 with an OPS + of 121 at .315/.357/.513...While Fisk had a 126+ OPS during what I termed his nine-year prime, he also appeared in only 1062 games during that stretch due to injuries. That makes it all the more remarkable that he was able to continue his career and to have some seasons where he was awarded (justly or not) the silver slugger when he was well beyond his prime (though no longer a great defensive catcher)...
So...as far as the question of whether or not Bench was the best catcher of his time, I think yes, but not by a significant margin over Rodriguez or Fisk...and that Munson likely was past his prime at the time of his death and his career continuation would likely have resulted in compiling numbers, but declining performance...That doesn't change that I loved him and cried for his death, but facts are facts if we shut emotion out of the evaluation...He was 32 years old that season, coming of an OPS+ year of 101 and hitting at a +97 clip at the time of his death. His power was declining to near none as he reached into his bag of tricks to cut down on his swing and keep putting the ball in play for a decent BA...
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Post by inger on May 5, 2018 23:51:13 GMT -5
Hey guys, this is all open for discussion...  |
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Post by chiyankee on May 13, 2018 14:42:08 GMT -5
Tough break for Robbie.  |
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Post by kaybli on May 13, 2018 14:48:07 GMT -5
Damn, that sucks. Rizzuto doesn't know who he is anyway.  |
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Post by inger on May 13, 2018 21:28:38 GMT -5
Tough break for Robbie. [img alt=" " src="//storage.proboards.com/6828121/images/lD0IYnVdZbyEdSEWlEUC.gif" class="smile"] Eleven consecutive years of appearing in 150 or more games will end...Before 2017, that was ten consecutive years of appearing in 156 or more games...He's 35. He needs about three more full seasons of Cano-ish play to reach 3,000 hits. I hate to see him slowed down on that quest...I always thought he'd win at least one batting title...but it looks like his years for that are likely done. In fact, the only "black ink" he achieved was tying for the league lead in games played one season...He also had a shot at leading the league in doubles, but once again...it never happened...Still a great player... Just curious, how does the thought of the Yankees having signed him to that eight-year, $240M contract five years ago look now to everyone? He'd have three more years to go...and we'd have to adjust his power stats for Yankee Stadium to have an idea of how he'd be performing...And we'd have to think that we might have either moved him off of second base (to third, or first? or DH?) by now...or soon... |
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Post by kaybli on May 14, 2018 1:12:08 GMT -5
Tough break for Robbie. [img src="//storage.proboards.com/6828121/images/lD0IYnVdZbyEdSEWlEUC.gif" alt=" " class="smile"] Eleven consecutive years of appearing in 150 or more games will end...Before 2017, that was ten consecutive years of appearing in 156 or more games...He's 35. He needs about three more full seasons of Cano-ish play to reach 3,000 hits. I hate to see him slowed down on that quest...I always thought he'd win at least one batting title...but it looks like his years for that are likely done. In fact, the only "black ink" he achieved was tying for the league lead in games played one season...He also had a shot at leading the league in doubles, but once again...it never happened...Still a great player... Just curious, how does the thought of the Yankees having signed him to that eight-year, $240M contract five years ago look now to everyone? He'd have three more years to go...and we'd have to adjust his power stats for Yankee Stadium to have an idea of how he'd be performing...And we'd have to think that we might have either moved him off of second base (to third, or first? or DH?) by now...or soon... So glad now we didn't match Seattle's 10 year contract to him. But it's not like we put the savings to good use. We signed whack ass Ellsbury instead. If it was a choice between Cano and Ellsbury with their respective contracts, I still would have chosen Cano's 10 year deal. But that's all in the past now. We can only hope Torres will be somewhat close to the next Cano. |
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Post by rizzuto on May 14, 2018 18:30:22 GMT -5
Damn, that sucks. Rizzuto doesn't know who he is anyway. [img style="max-width:100%;" class="smile" src="//storage.proboards.com/6828121/images/deYNshsjVcNRnVUrLLFH.gif" alt=" "] You know, looking at the picture, that may be the closest Cano has ever gotten to diving for a ball... |
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Post by bleedpinstripes on May 15, 2018 15:29:27 GMT -5
The Red Sox announced that righty Carson Smith has been placed on the 10-day DL with a subluxation of his right shoulder. He’ll be replaced for the time being by lefty Bobby Poyner. President of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski told reporters, including Evan Drellich of NBC Sports Boston (via Twitter), that “it’s got the potential of being a major injury.” Smith, who hurt himself flinging his glove after a poor outing, will go for a second opinion. www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/05/red-sox-place-carson-smith-on-10-day-dl.html |
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Post by kaybli on May 15, 2018 15:31:07 GMT -5
Smith, who hurt himself flinging his glove after a poor outing, Dumbass. Fitting he's a Red Sox.  |
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Post by inger on May 15, 2018 21:49:57 GMT -5
This equipment smashing and glove-flinging...bat tossing...even the "studs" who break the bat over their knee...all of it should be subject to fines and automatic suspensions. It's ignorant, shows horrendous sportsmanship and can cause injury to bystanders...It seems the league is getting so weak in certain instances...that they're afraid to do anything at all that might not jive with the Players Agreement...
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Post by kaybli on May 16, 2018 0:48:48 GMT -5
This equipment smashing and glove-flinging...bat tossing...even the "studs" who break the bat over their knee...all of it should be subject to fines and automatic suspensions. It's ignorant, shows horrendous sportsmanship and can cause injury to bystanders...It seems the league is getting so weak in certain instances...that they're afraid to do anything at all that might not jive with the Players Agreement... What about punching yourself in the face? |
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Post by inger on May 16, 2018 8:34:34 GMT -5
This equipment smashing and glove-flinging...bat tossing...even the "studs" who break the bat over their knee...all of it should be subject to fines and automatic suspensions. It's ignorant, shows horrendous sportsmanship and can cause injury to bystanders...It seems the league is getting so weak in certain instances...that they're afraid to do anything at all that might not jive with the Players Agreement... What about punching yourself in the face? The punishment for that should be just to allow you to continue to live your miserable life out to the end... In reality, I don't believe that was a real "punch"...Not one that would leave a mark, etc...but if it HAD been (or if it was)...then the above would certainly apply... |
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Post by chiyankee on May 18, 2018 21:15:46 GMT -5
Ugh!
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