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Post by inger on Jul 6, 2021 13:18:40 GMT -5
The recent performance and accompanying small sample numbers are horrendous. Yet, he started out the season untouchable. Huge K numbers, 0.00 ERA in 18 games. What happened?
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Post by kaybli on Jul 6, 2021 14:00:52 GMT -5
He's 33 not 38. Its not the end. Since we have a Chapman thread might as well throw this in here:
Yankees’ Aroldis Chapman promises he will make people ‘shut up’
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Post by rizzuto on Jul 6, 2021 15:08:11 GMT -5
Chapman has walked 9 batters in the last 3.1 innings. I think it’s relatively apparent that he’s lost his release point. In years past, I noticed that Chapman occasionally rushes his windup, failing to gather himself completely at the top before coming home. Usually, when pitchers do this, throwing a breaking ball will help to keep their weight back; however, Chapman is doing the same with his slider. I wish he would concentrate on his forkball, to help him get back on top of the ball, but it doesn’t seem like that’s been attempted. In fact, you may recall that he first gave up a run this season when he stopped using his forkball for a few outings, and I mentioned it in the game thread.
Incidentally, the same happens in tennis with the serve, which is essentially the same motion as throwing a baseball. In fact, I used to teach young tennis players the serving motion by having them throw a tennis ball, then an old tennis racket over the net into the service square. When I would start losing my flat, first serve (analogous to a four seam fastball), I often regained it by hitting a few kick serves, which requires tossing the ball behind your head and scraping the top of the ball from the 11 O’clock to the 2 O’clock position, which means a full follow through.
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Post by inger on Jul 6, 2021 15:09:14 GMT -5
He's 33 not 38. Its not the end. Since we have a Chapman thread might as well throw this in here:
Yankees’ Aroldis Chapman promises he will make people ‘shut up’
Honestly, I believe more careers end at 33 than at 38…am I can’t think of anyone else that crashed and burned this badly mid-season. I have to go out to work now, but someone who may have been a similar age, and was a reliever (closer preferred), maybe Bruce Sutter? It could make v an interesting. It of research, but what happens to one man doesn’t need be what will happen to another… Wade Davis?…
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Post by rizzuto on Jul 6, 2021 15:58:04 GMT -5
He's 33 not 38. Its not the end. Since we have a Chapman thread might as well throw this in here:
Yankees’ Aroldis Chapman promises he will make people ‘shut up’
Honestly, I believe more careers end at 33 than at 38…am I can’t think of anyone else that crashed and burned this badly mid-season. I have to go out to work now, but someone who may have been a similar age, and was a reliever (closer preferred), maybe Bruce Sutter? It could make v an interesting. It of research, but what happens to one man doesn’t need be what will happen to another… Wade Davis?… Man, are you spoiled. This happens to pitchers, but especially relievers and closers, nearly every year. Craig Kimbrel, Jeurys Familia, Blake Treinen, Daniel Bard, Eric Gagne. We focus so much on the Yankees, other teams’ problems rarely ping our radar. The Yankees have also been fortunate to have wonderful closers year after year for decades, but singularly the one and only Mariano Rivera, who for these very reasons will likely never have his save mark broken. Chapman has had a horrendous three weeks, but I recall many Yankee threads just like this one, wondering if Mariano was done because he went through a couple of weeks where he blew saves. And, this, the most consistent reliever in major league history. Now, there have been cases, like the Atlanta closer who never recovered from the home run hit by Jim Leyritz. I’m blanking on his name. The Yankees even signed him hoping to recapture the magic in an arm that still threw 100 mph. Alas, he could still throw 100, but he couldn’t get anyone out. Note: Mark Wohlers. As for more pitchers being done at 33 than 38, I’m sure that’s true. I’m also sure that’s more true of pitchers at 27 than 33, simply for the reason that you have to be pretty good to have a career that lasts until 33 or 38. What Kabli means, I suspect, is that players break down for good due to physically no longer being durable enough to recover outing to outing, in effect, aging out, rather than a career debilitating injury or just not being good enough anymore.
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Post by kaybli on Jul 6, 2021 17:54:24 GMT -5
Every year people said Mariano was finished and he was the greatest closer of all time. Chapman is obviously not Mo. And there is a chance he won't be to fix himself. But like rizzuto said, closers go through this all the time and bounce back. He was putting up zeroes a few weeks ago. The odds are he will bounce back as well.
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Post by rizzuto on Jul 6, 2021 18:20:27 GMT -5
Every year people said Mariano was finished and he was the greatest closer of all time. Chapman is obviously not Mo. And there is a chance he won't be to fix himself. But like rizzuto said, closers go through this all the time and bounce back. He was putting up zeroes a few weeks ago. The odds are he will bounce back as well. The Yankees have had wonderful talent in their bullpens historically. If Chapman does return to his level of performance from April, May, and early June, he has a legitimate chance to put himself in some rarified Yankee history this season. Current career leaders in saves for the New York Yankees: 1. Mariano Rivera 652 2. Dave Righetti 224 3. Rich Gossage 151 4. Sparky Lyle 141 5. Aroldis Chapman 130 Twenty-two saves in the second half would put him in third place all time.
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Post by chiyankee on Jul 6, 2021 18:23:16 GMT -5
Chapman is a HOF reliever and his arm is healthy. My guess is that he eventually gets over this rut he's in and starts dominating again. The real question is when? How long does this drag on?
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Post by Renfield on Jul 6, 2021 18:32:12 GMT -5
Rizz--it wasn't Steve Bedrosian was it?
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Post by rizzuto on Jul 6, 2021 18:37:50 GMT -5
Rizz--it wasn't Steve Bedrosian was it? No, Mark Wohlers .
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Post by pippsheadache on Jul 6, 2021 18:51:44 GMT -5
Rizz--it wasn't Steve Bedrosian was it? No, Mark Wohlers . Wohlers went from an elite reliever to an ineffective headcase after that. At one point he had the record for fastest pitch ever measured in a major league game at 103 MPH. Of course the standards for measuring pitch velocity have changed to boost the numbers since then, so who knows how that would register today. Wohlers' successor as Braves closer (other than a Kerry Ligtenberg cameo) was John Rocker, who also went from outstanding to terrible in the blink of an eye just when Atlanta let him go after the beaten-to-death controversial statements.
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Post by pippsheadache on Jul 6, 2021 19:06:00 GMT -5
I'm in the "I doubt it" camp on Chapman. Unless there is an injury, which as of now doesn't seem to be the case, this is likely a bump (although a really rough bump) in the road. My concern is that if he blows four or five more saves over the next few weeks, it could sink the Yankees post-season chances even if he gets it together later.
I know Mo had a few rough patches, but I don't ever recall him getting rocked or being this wild over this long of a stretch. I'm relying on an increasingly defective memory here, but I don't think Mo ever had this many dreadful outings over the course of several weeks.
In any event, we will have a lot more information to go on a month from now.
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Post by kaybli on Jul 6, 2021 19:11:42 GMT -5
I'm in the "I doubt it" camp on Chapman. Unless there is an injury, which as of now doesn't seem to be the case, this is likely a bump (although a really rough bump) in the road. My concern is that if he blows four or five more saves over the next few weeks, it could sink the Yankees post-season chances even if he gets it together later. I know Mo had a few rough patches, but I don't ever recall him getting rocked or being this wild over this long of a stretch. I'm relying on an increasingly defective memory here, but I don't think Mo ever had this many dreadful outings over the course of several weeks. In any event, we will have a lot more information to go on a month from now. No, I can't recall a period where Mo was this bad. He would have a few rough outings though and people would start threads titled "Is Mo Finished?" 8 years before he retired.
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Post by rizzuto on Jul 6, 2021 19:19:40 GMT -5
Wohlers went from an elite reliever to an ineffective headcase after that. At one point he had the record for fastest pitch ever measured in a major league game at 103 MPH. Of course the standards for measuring pitch velocity have changed to boost the numbers since then, so who knows how that would register today. Wohlers' successor as Braves closer (other than a Kerry Ligtenberg cameo) was John Rocker, who also went from outstanding to terrible in the blink of an eye just when Atlanta let him go after the beaten-to-death controversial statements. Those were two of their greatest closers, which also underscores just how spoiled we Yankees fans have been regarding closers over the decades: Atlanta Braves Career Saves Leaders 1. Craig Kimbrel 186 2. John Smoltz 154 3. Gene Garber 141 4. Mark Wohlers 112 5. John Rocker 83 6. Cecil Upshaw 79 7. Rick Camp 57 8. Mike Stanton 55 9. Jim Johnson 51 10. Arodys Vizcaino 50
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Post by pippsheadache on Jul 6, 2021 19:33:53 GMT -5
Every year people said Mariano was finished and he was the greatest closer of all time. Chapman is obviously not Mo. And there is a chance he won't be to fix himself. But like rizzuto said, closers go through this all the time and bounce back. He was putting up zeroes a few weeks ago. The odds are he will bounce back as well. The Yankees have had wonderful talent in their bullpens historically. If Chapman does return to his level of performance from April, May, and early June, he has a legitimate chance to put himself in some rarified Yankee history this season. Current career leaders in saves for the New York Yankees: 1. Mariano Rivera 652 2. Dave Righetti 224 3. Rich Gossage 151 4. Sparky Lyle 141 5. Aroldis Chapman 130 Twenty-two saves in the second half would put him in third place all time. The next guy on that saves list would be Johnny Murphy, who was the first pitcher the Yankees used consistently as what would later be called a closer. In fact, other than Mo, he was the Yankees closer longer than any other pitcher, assuming that role in 1934 and staying there through 1947, minus two years of military service. Of course relievers were used differently then, and there was no save statistic, but applied retroactively he led the AL in saves four times over a five-year period. Johnny Murphy later became chief scout of the expansion Mets in 1961 (hired by his old Yankee boss George Weiss) and became their GM in 1967. One of his first acts was to pry Gil Hodges away from the Senators to manage the Mets. He was in that GM position when the Mets won the World Series in 1969. He died from a heart attack in December of that year.
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