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Post by posadafan24 on Feb 1, 2024 9:55:40 GMT -5
Who says he is even comfortable at third when he has never played there before . There is a reason why they never tried torres at third . We don't know what his feelings are. Is he relucetant to leave a comfort zone ? HOF players in New York resisted postions changes : Derek Jeter and Mike Piazza. Niether of those guys was an elite defender, they were paid to hit. Torres is in that column. Thie '24 team is not going to be good on defense and the pitching is thin. There are going to be lots of 3 + games in the Bronx this year. Well his numbers suffered a couple years ago when he was clearly not comfortable playing at ss . Who says that wont happen with moving him to 3b ? As for the pitching you are spot on . In fact i have doubts they do much more than win a wc if they dont hit like they did in 18 and 19 . |
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Post by Max on Feb 1, 2024 11:35:57 GMT -5
It's completely accurate. Gleyber has appeared much more adept at quick, reaction plays than when he has time. Most of his gaffs are on routine grounders and plays with variable decisions. To me, this is a focus problem. It's the same reason, he can steal a base and then get picked off not paying attention.
I agree. I think Torres should stay at 2B, but the reason you mentioned is why I don't totally dismiss the idea that he could play 3B. |
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Post by Max on Feb 1, 2024 11:46:46 GMT -5
I wonder when the scouting reports came out on Gleyber's arm strength? The latest ratings they keep on baseball savant would seem to suggest it's very poor at this point in his career. Consider: They are looking only at the top 5% of throws by MPH, so they are measuring throws that are in situations where the fielder is going all-out, ie only close plays. Easy plays with casual lobs/flips are being excluded. Gleyber averages 75.9 MPH on his top throws and rates an 8 out of 100 in arm strength. If you compare him to all the other 3b, he would be the second worst in the league. There are a bunch of 3b who average close to 90 MPH and a few over that. It's a pretty huge difference to go from 75 to 90, just imagine any pitcher trying to make it in the majors throwing 75 MPH fastballs vs throwing 90+.
A very strong throwing arm helps, but it's not a must for a 3Bman. Not much of a difference between Nettles' arm and Torres' arm. Torres wasn't moved off of SS because he lacked a strong arm. Buddy Bell and Aurelio Rodríguez has excellent arms, but Nettles made all the strong throws that he need to make. Since the ball more often than not gets to 3B quick, I wish I had a dollar for every time Nettles made a rainbow throw to 1B.
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Post by themartian on Feb 1, 2024 12:46:35 GMT -5
I wonder when the scouting reports came out on Gleyber's arm strength? The latest ratings they keep on baseball savant would seem to suggest it's very poor at this point in his career. Consider: They are looking only at the top 5% of throws by MPH, so they are measuring throws that are in situations where the fielder is going all-out, ie only close plays. Easy plays with casual lobs/flips are being excluded. Gleyber averages 75.9 MPH on his top throws and rates an 8 out of 100 in arm strength. If you compare him to all the other 3b, he would be the second worst in the league. There are a bunch of 3b who average close to 90 MPH and a few over that. It's a pretty huge difference to go from 75 to 90, just imagine any pitcher trying to make it in the majors throwing 75 MPH fastballs vs throwing 90+.
A very strong throwing arm helps, but it's not a must for a 3Bman. Not much of a difference between Nettles' arm and Torres' arm. Torres wasn't moved off of SS because he lacked a strong arm. Buddy Bell and Aurelio Rodríguez has excellent arms, but Nettles made all the strong throws that he need to make. Since the ball more often than not gets to 3B quick, I wish I had a dollar for every time Nettles made a rainbow throw to 1B.
I think you missed how baseball savant calculates the average MPH on throws. They are only counting the top 5% of the player's throws by top MPH. Those are the ones that are made on close plays, not the rainbows. Gleyber's hardest throws are essentially rainbows. |
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Post by Max on Feb 1, 2024 14:56:36 GMT -5
A very strong throwing arm helps, but it's not a must for a 3Bman. Not much of a difference between Nettles' arm and Torres' arm. Torres wasn't moved off of SS because he lacked a strong arm. Buddy Bell and Aurelio Rodríguez has excellent arms, but Nettles made all the strong throws that he need to make. Since the ball more often than not gets to 3B quick, I wish I had a dollar for every time Nettles made a rainbow throw to 1B.
I think you missed how baseball savant calculates the average MPH on throws. They are only counting the top 5% of the player's throws by top MPH. Those are the ones that are made on close plays, not the rainbows. Gleyber's hardest throws are essentially rainbows.
I didn't miss anything. And, you're exaggerating about Torres' throws. |
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Post by fwclipper51 on Feb 1, 2024 15:15:09 GMT -5
Who says he is even comfortable at third when he has never played there before . There is a reason why they never tried torres at third . We don't know what his feelings are. Is he relucetant to leave a comfort zone ? HOF players in New York resisted postions changes : Derek Jeter and Mike Piazza. Niether of those guys was an elite defender, they were paid to hit. Torres is in that column. Thie '24 team is not going to be good on defense and the pitching is thin. There are going to be lots of 3 + games in the Bronx this year. 5 Golden Gloves isn't too shaby for Jeter, who had worked hard with Yankees Minor League Infielder Coach Brian Buttefield to improve his footwork and positioning at Shortstop. Clipper |
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Post by themartian on Feb 1, 2024 16:23:44 GMT -5
I think you missed how baseball savant calculates the average MPH on throws. They are only counting the top 5% of the player's throws by top MPH. Those are the ones that are made on close plays, not the rainbows. Gleyber's hardest throws are essentially rainbows.
I didn't miss anything. And, you're exaggerating about Torres' throws. They used radar guns to measure his throws and he has about the weakest arm out of all 2b and would have the 2nd weakest of all 3b. And you're comparing that to Nettles making rainbow throws on easy plays? When the measurement is for the player's hardest throws on close plays?  |
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Post by Max on Feb 1, 2024 16:36:43 GMT -5
I didn't miss anything. And, you're exaggerating about Torres' throws. They used radar guns to measure his throws and he has about the weakest arm out of all 2b and would have the 2nd weakest of all 3b. And you're comparing that to Nettles making rainbow throws on easy plays? When the measurement is for the player's hardest throws on close plays? I know how throws are measured, Torres does not make rainbow throws on rushed plays. As I said, not much of a difference between Nettles' arm and Torres' arm, meaning on rushed throws, that's the only comparing that I made. I brought up Nettles rainbow throws to show that the ball more often than not gets to 3B quick and while a very strong throwing arm helps, but it's not a must for a 3Bman. |
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Post by themartian on Feb 1, 2024 16:49:00 GMT -5
They used radar guns to measure his throws and he has about the weakest arm out of all 2b and would have the 2nd weakest of all 3b. And you're comparing that to Nettles making rainbow throws on easy plays? When the measurement is for the player's hardest throws on close plays? I know how throws are measured, Torres does not make rainbow throws on rushed plays. As I said, not much of a difference between Nettles' arm and Torres' arm, meaning on rushed throws, that's the only comparing that I made. I brought up Nettles rainbow throws to show that the ball more often than not gets to 3B quick and while a very strong throwing arm helps, but it's not a must for a 3Bman. Teams generally try to put someone on 3b who has a strong arm, this shouldn't be anything new to baseball fans. The old scouting reports on Gleyber said that back then his arm looked adequate for 3b, but now in 2024 that doesn't seem to be the case. But they went out of their way to mention his arm in the context of playing 3b. I've never heard anyone argue before that a player with a weak arm is well suited for 3b because there are a lot of bang-bang type plays there. That's a new and unconventional theory, to say the least. Not all plays at 3b are on hard hit balls and the throws from 3b are as long as you have to make from the infield. And I would in no way shape or form ever compare Gleyber defensively to Nettles. We don't have exact stats from the Nettles playing days, but he didn't have an arm that would have been among the weakest at his position. It wasn't a stand out cannon (but was extremely accurate) but that doesn't mean it was like Gleyber throwing 75 MPH either. And Nettles with his range was able to make a ton of plays that would get by Gleyber and in to the OF. You can't make an easy throw after an amazing play if you can't make the amazing play, and in that regard Nettles was in a different universe than Gleyber. It's practically sacrilege to try mention them in the same sentence as defenders. I mean it's one thing to speculate as to whether or not Gleyber could make it as a 3b. But to start bringing up Nettles is just too much. |
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Post by ypaterson on Feb 1, 2024 18:31:52 GMT -5
We don't know what his feelings are. Is he relucetant to leave a comfort zone ? HOF players in New York resisted postions changes : Derek Jeter and Mike Piazza. Niether of those guys was an elite defender, they were paid to hit. Torres is in that column. Thie '24 team is not going to be good on defense and the pitching is thin. There are going to be lots of 3 + games in the Bronx this year. 5 Golden Gloves isn't too shaby for Jeter, who had worked hard with Yankees Minor League Infielder Coach Brian Buttefield to improve his footwork and positioning at Shortstop. Clipper I think he edged out Rafael Palmeiro one of those years !  |
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Post by Max on Feb 1, 2024 19:08:18 GMT -5
I know how throws are measured, Torres does not make rainbow throws on rushed plays. As I said, not much of a difference between Nettles' arm and Torres' arm, meaning on rushed throws, that's the only comparing that I made. I brought up Nettles rainbow throws to show that the ball more often than not gets to 3B quick and while a very strong throwing arm helps, but it's not a must for a 3Bman. Teams generally try to put someone on 3b who has a strong arm, this shouldn't be anything new to baseball fans. The old scouting reports on Gleyber said that back then his arm looked adequate for 3b, but now in 2024 that doesn't seem to be the case. But they went out of their way to mention his arm in the context of playing 3b. I've never heard anyone argue before that a player with a weak arm is well suited for 3b because there are a lot of bang-bang type plays there. That's a new and unconventional theory, to say the least. Not all plays at 3b are on hard hit balls and the throws from 3b are as long as you have to make from the infield. And I would in no way shape or form ever compare Gleyber defensively to Nettles. We don't have exact stats from the Nettles playing days, but he didn't have an arm that would have been among the weakest at his position. It wasn't a stand out cannon (but was extremely accurate) but that doesn't mean it was like Gleyber throwing 75 MPH either. And Nettles with his range was able to make a ton of plays that would get by Gleyber and in to the OF. You can't make an easy throw after an amazing play if you can't make the amazing play, and in that regard Nettles was in a different universe than Gleyber. It's practically sacrilege to try mention them in the same sentence as defenders. I mean it's one thing to speculate as to whether or not Gleyber could make it as a 3b. But to start bringing up Nettles is just too much.
lol! I don't know what post you read. Maybe it wouldn't be "just too much" to bring up Nettles if you actually read what I wrote. I know that it's not anything new that teams generally try to put someone on 3B that has a strong arm. But it's not a must. You still haven't heard anyone argue that a player with a weak arm is well suited to play 3B, since Torres doesn't have a weak arm.
His arm shouldn't be confused with Dave Winfield's arm strength, but his arm shouldn't be confused with Mickey Rivers' arm strength either. I also didn't compare Torres' fielding to Nettles' fielding, I compared their arms. So it's not a "new and unconventional theory, to say the least" to anyone that can tell the difference.
Tell me...What's the difference in arm strength between Torres, Nettles, Boggs and Charlie Hayes?
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Post by themartian on Feb 2, 2024 5:56:04 GMT -5
Teams generally try to put someone on 3b who has a strong arm, this shouldn't be anything new to baseball fans. The old scouting reports on Gleyber said that back then his arm looked adequate for 3b, but now in 2024 that doesn't seem to be the case. But they went out of their way to mention his arm in the context of playing 3b. I've never heard anyone argue before that a player with a weak arm is well suited for 3b because there are a lot of bang-bang type plays there. That's a new and unconventional theory, to say the least. Not all plays at 3b are on hard hit balls and the throws from 3b are as long as you have to make from the infield. And I would in no way shape or form ever compare Gleyber defensively to Nettles. We don't have exact stats from the Nettles playing days, but he didn't have an arm that would have been among the weakest at his position. It wasn't a stand out cannon (but was extremely accurate) but that doesn't mean it was like Gleyber throwing 75 MPH either. And Nettles with his range was able to make a ton of plays that would get by Gleyber and in to the OF. You can't make an easy throw after an amazing play if you can't make the amazing play, and in that regard Nettles was in a different universe than Gleyber. It's practically sacrilege to try mention them in the same sentence as defenders. I mean it's one thing to speculate as to whether or not Gleyber could make it as a 3b. But to start bringing up Nettles is just too much.
lol! I don't know what post you read. Maybe it wouldn't be "just too much" to bring up Nettles if you actually read what I wrote. I know that it's not anything new that teams generally try to put someone on 3B that has a strong arm. But it's not a must. You still haven't heard anyone argue that a player with a weak arm is well suited to play 3B, since Torres doesn't have a weak arm.
His arm shouldn't be confused with Dave Winfield's arm strength, but his arm shouldn't be confused with Mickey Rivers' arm strength either. I also didn't compare Torres' fielding to Nettles' fielding, I compared their arms. So it's not a "new and unconventional theory, to say the least" to anyone that can tell the difference.
Tell me...What's the difference in arm strength between Torres, Nettles, Boggs and Charlie Hayes?
You just can't understand the baseball savant stat then because you would otherwise not conclude that "Torres doesn't have a weak arm". When you're about the softest tossing 2b in the league, you have a weak arm. |
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Post by ypaterson on Feb 2, 2024 10:31:00 GMT -5
lol! I don't know what post you read. Maybe it wouldn't be "just too much" to bring up Nettles if you actually read what I wrote. I know that it's not anything new that teams generally try to put someone on 3B that has a strong arm. But it's not a must. You still haven't heard anyone argue that a player with a weak arm is well suited to play 3B, since Torres doesn't have a weak arm.
His arm shouldn't be confused with Dave Winfield's arm strength, but his arm shouldn't be confused with Mickey Rivers' arm strength either. I also didn't compare Torres' fielding to Nettles' fielding, I compared their arms. So it's not a "new and unconventional theory, to say the least" to anyone that can tell the difference.
Tell me...What's the difference in arm strength between Torres, Nettles, Boggs and Charlie Hayes?
You just can't understand the baseball savant stat then because you would otherwise not conclude that "Torres doesn't have a weak arm". When you're about the softest tossing 2b in the league, you have a weak arm. Please take a look at the Savant numbers for Torres from 2021 when he played SS. When he chose to do so he achieved elite velocity on this throws. |
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Post by azbob643 on Feb 2, 2024 10:59:40 GMT -5
You just can't understand the baseball savant stat then because you would otherwise not conclude that "Torres doesn't have a weak arm". When you're about the softest tossing 2b in the league, you have a weak arm. Please take a look at the Savant numbers for Torres from 2021 when he played SS. When he chose to do so he achieved elite velocity on this throws. This "discussion" should sound very familiar to you. |
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Post by Max on Feb 2, 2024 11:39:45 GMT -5
lol! I don't know what post you read. Maybe it wouldn't be "just too much" to bring up Nettles if you actually read what I wrote. I know that it's not anything new that teams generally try to put someone on 3B that has a strong arm. But it's not a must. You still haven't heard anyone argue that a player with a weak arm is well suited to play 3B, since Torres doesn't have a weak arm.
His arm shouldn't be confused with Dave Winfield's arm strength, but his arm shouldn't be confused with Mickey Rivers' arm strength either. I also didn't compare Torres' fielding to Nettles' fielding, I compared their arms. So it's not a "new and unconventional theory, to say the least" to anyone that can tell the difference.
Tell me...What's the difference in arm strength between Torres, Nettles, Boggs and Charlie Hayes?
You just can't understand the baseball savant stat then because you would otherwise not conclude that "Torres doesn't have a weak arm". When you're about the softest tossing 2b in the league, you have a weak arm.
I don't need a savant stat to think for me. I understand what my eyes see, which is that Torres has a good enough arm to play 3B.
Need proof? Then let me ask again...What's the difference in arm strength between Torres, Nettles, Boggs and Charlie Hayes?
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