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Post by 1955nyyfan on Apr 4, 2024 16:24:29 GMT -5
I understand some of the consternation fans are having with Holmes. Despite an ERA of O, his underlying numbers are pretty bad. High WHIP, high BA against, low K's per 9. But the good news is he's only thrown 4 innings so far and it's not uncommon for MLB players to get off to slow starts. That is why I think we as fans are probably more concerned than the Yankees are. There didn't seem to be a big push to replace him during the offseason even though there were a couple of alternatives available. I'm pretty sure he will be given ample opportunity to get on track. Based on his past performance I think he will be a good, probably not great closer. If he continues to pitch poorly he will be replaced as the closer.
Some have suggested Hamilton as a potential option. He is not someone I would have thought of for the closer role at the beginning of the season but I have to admit he has been pretty impressive. However, he's only pitched 5.2 innings this season and there have been many pitchers who have pitched great in setup roles but not been able to effectively close. I'm not saying Hamilton is one of them but he's not a sure thing either. But, if we do need to replace Holmes and Hamilton keeps pitching the way he has, he should be given the opportunity.
I also feel there have been times we as fans have been frustrated with Boone for staying with players too long when they are going bad. While it can be frustrating, I believe it can also be damaging to give up on a player too soon. Other players in the clubhouse take note and I think they appreciate a Manager who understands its a long season and even the best players will go through dry spells. This was somthing I think Torre recognized and is one of the reasons players liked playing for him.
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Post by JEGnj on Apr 4, 2024 16:29:23 GMT -5
We were spoiled with years of Mo and Chappy(before he started blowing 9th innings). They would come in and could blow 3 guys away. Holmes makes every inning interesting. He does the job and he is the Yankee closer but he isn't the blow it by you power closer we are used to. Hader has had a rough start but he was there for the signing.
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Post by Max on Apr 5, 2024 10:38:55 GMT -5
See how the season works out? For how long? I have seen Holmes as the Yankees Closer for a season and a half. Hader isn't perfect, and I for one don't expect Holmes to pitch like him, nor do I expect Holmes to pitch like 2 Hall of Famers named Rivera and Gossage. But there's room for improvement.
How many saves would Holmes have blown if the Yankees defense didn't bail him out? Holmes should have picked up the save in the 9th inning, that's not his fault. But what about the 10th inning? Yeah, it was an infield hit that tied the game, but Holmes wild pitch allowed the runner to advance to 3B in the first place. Just my opinion, but I think Holmes is a better pitcher when he's pitching in the 7th or 8th innings.
What Holmes is pretty much what all sinkerballers do. Wild pitches, passed balls, infield hits, and fair number of infield errors behind them because of odd English on the ball and slow rollers, and the occasional sinker that doesn’t sink. If those things happen in the 7th or 8th inning, then you may never see your closer on the mound. But the good part is they are hard to square up, and they get more than their fair share of DP’s and generally (but not always) manage walks fairly well. At the end of the day, save pct. Is probably the best way to judge them. Holmes has done pretty well in that department to date. He’s only in his second full season closing games at this point. I’m just going to enjoy the suspense…
But in the 7th and 8th inning there's more of a margin for error and less pressure. I don't like suspense when Yankee pitchers are on the mound, especially if it's their Closer that's pitching in a save situation.
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Post by inger on Apr 5, 2024 10:45:46 GMT -5
What Holmes is pretty much what all sinkerballers do. Wild pitches, passed balls, infield hits, and fair number of infield errors behind them because of odd English on the ball and slow rollers, and the occasional sinker that doesn’t sink. If those things happen in the 7th or 8th inning, then you may never see your closer on the mound. But the good part is they are hard to square up, and they get more than their fair share of DP’s and generally (but not always) manage walks fairly well. At the end of the day, save pct. Is probably the best way to judge them. Holmes has done pretty well in that department to date. He’s only in his second full season closing games at this point. I’m just going to enjoy the suspense…
But in the 7th and 8th inning there's more of a margin for error and less pressure. I don't like suspense when Yankee pitchers are on the mound, especially if it's their Closer that's pitching in a save situation.
I’m recalling when the Orioles had Dan “Full Pack” Stanhouse on the mound. Earl Weaver nicknamed him Full Pack because he claimed that’s how many cigarettes he smoked every time he closed a game. The worst had to be Mitch “Wild Thing” Williams with his 6 BB per nine pitching style… |
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Post by Max on Apr 5, 2024 10:46:19 GMT -5
I'm confused by all the Holmes hate. He came in yesterday and would have a 1-2-3 inning if Volpe would have made a routine throw to first base. I'm with you regarding Holmes ... This is insane. I was one of Holmes biggest critics before this season but he has won me over. He has a 0.00 ERA and 3 saves (should be 4) in 4 appearances vs HOU (7 - Straight ALCS appearances) and ARZ (The reigning NL Champs) on the road What does he have to do?? Who is the Lockdown closer that we would replace him with? Hader? He has 2 losses and a 6.75 ERA Mo ?? He's retired
ERA is probably the worst stat that a Closer's performance can be judge by.
For example...Overall, Hader out pitched Holmes in the series in Houston.
Other examples would be that a Closer can come into a game and give up 1 earned run and gets the save while his ERA would be 9.00. While another Closer can come into a game with runners on base give up a hit or two meanwhile he can get the save and have an ERA of 0.00.
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Post by azbob643 on Apr 5, 2024 10:52:03 GMT -5
ERA is probably the worst stat that a Closer's performance can be judge by.
The most misleading stat for any reliever...unless it's high. |
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Post by Max on Apr 5, 2024 10:53:07 GMT -5
But in the 7th and 8th inning there's more of a margin for error and less pressure. I don't like suspense when Yankee pitchers are on the mound, especially if it's their Closer that's pitching in a save situation.
I’m recalling when the Orioles had Dan “Full Pack” Stanhouse on the mound. Earl Weaver nicknamed him Full Pack because he claimed that’s how many cigarettes he smoked every time he closed a game. The worst had to be Mitch “Wild Thing” Williams with his 6 BB per nine pitching style…
lol! Inger, I'm not joking. I thought of Stanhouse when Holmes was bailed out of those games in Houston. When he throws a pitch I also get the same feeling that I used to get when a ball was hit to Knoblauch. As I mentioned, I will be one happy Yankee fan if Holmes proves me wrong and he becomes a top Closer. |
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Post by 1955nyyfan on Apr 5, 2024 11:17:46 GMT -5
But in the 7th and 8th inning there's more of a margin for error and less pressure. I don't like suspense when Yankee pitchers are on the mound, especially if it's their Closer that's pitching in a save situation.
I’m recalling when the Orioles had Dan “Full Pack” Stanhouse on the mound. Earl Weaver nicknamed him Full Pack because he claimed that’s how many cigarettes he smoked every time he closed a game. The worst had to be Mitch “Wild Thing” Williams with his 6 BB per nine pitching style… Closer to home, how about John Wetteland before he turned it over to the great one! |
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Post by inger on Apr 5, 2024 15:20:06 GMT -5
I’m recalling when the Orioles had Dan “Full Pack” Stanhouse on the mound. Earl Weaver nicknamed him Full Pack because he claimed that’s how many cigarettes he smoked every time he closed a game. The worst had to be Mitch “Wild Thing” Williams with his 6 BB per nine pitching style… Closer to home, how about John Wetteland before he turned it over to the great one! h He could be a bit exciting too…🤓 |
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Post by inger on Apr 5, 2024 15:22:20 GMT -5
A bit ofc topic, but imagine being Sparky Lyle’s teammate and it’s you’re birthday…
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Post by qimqam on Apr 5, 2024 17:12:18 GMT -5
I'm with you regarding Holmes ... This is insane. I was one of Holmes biggest critics before this season but he has won me over. He has a 0.00 ERA and 3 saves (should be 4) in 4 appearances vs HOU (7 - Straight ALCS appearances) and ARZ (The reigning NL Champs) on the road What does he have to do?? Who is the Lockdown closer that we would replace him with? Hader? He has 2 losses and a 6.75 ERA Mo ?? He's retired
ERA is probably the worst stat that a Closer's performance can be judge by.
For example...Overall, Hader out pitched Holmes in the series in Houston.
Other examples would be that a Closer can come into a game and give up 1 earned run and gets the save while his ERA would be 9.00. While another Closer can come into a game with runners on base give up a hit or two meanwhile he can get the save and have an ERA of 0.00.
That's quite an unusual take ... personally I'll take 3 saves and 0.00 ERA over 0 Saves a loss and a 3.00 ERA 100% of the time. Since when is anything more important then runs scored or allowed and wins or losses ??? |
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Post by inger on Apr 5, 2024 17:51:59 GMT -5
ERA is probably the worst stat that a Closer's performance can be judge by.
For example...Overall, Hader out pitched Holmes in the series in Houston.
Other examples would be that a Closer can come into a game and give up 1 earned run and gets the save while his ERA would be 9.00. While another Closer can come into a game with runners on base give up a hit or two meanwhile he can get the save and have an ERA of 0.00.
That's quite an unusual take ... personally I'll take 3 saves and 0.00 ERA over 0 Saves a loss and a 3.00 ERA 100% of the time. Since when is anything more important then runs scored or allowed and wins or losses ??? Recent studies have shown this and recent studies have shown that, but I still see ERA as a pretty important stat. When it’s a bit high and became so because of one bad outing I can understand tossing it away…when it’s low, sure. The pitcher may be pitching in some good luck. I get that. But luck is often something you make for yourself. Be close to the middle of the golf course and the bounces you get will more often go in your favor… |
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Post by azbob643 on Apr 5, 2024 17:57:02 GMT -5
That's quite an unusual take ... personally I'll take 3 saves and 0.00 ERA over 0 Saves a loss and a 3.00 ERA 100% of the time. Since when is anything more important then runs scored or allowed and wins or losses ??? Recent studies have shown this and recent studies have shown that, but I still see ERA as a pretty important stat. When it’s a bit high and became so because of one bad outing I can understand tossing it away…when it’s low, sure. The pitcher may be pitching in some good luck. I get that. But luck is often something you make for yourself. Be close to the middle of the golf course and the bounces you get will more often go in your favor… ERA can be very misleading for relief pitchers. If a pitcher comes in with the bases loaded and gives up a bases clearing double none of those runs are charged to him. |
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Post by inger on Apr 5, 2024 18:03:10 GMT -5
Recent studies have shown this and recent studies have shown that, but I still see ERA as a pretty important stat. When it’s a bit high and became so because of one bad outing I can understand tossing it away…when it’s low, sure. The pitcher may be pitching in some good luck. I get that. But luck is often something you make for yourself. Be close to the middle of the golf course and the bounces you get will more often go in your favor… ERA can be very misleading for relief pitchers. If a pitcher comes in with the bases loaded and gives up a bases clearing double none of those runs are charged to him. Nor should they be. The reliever gets doinked with a blown save. I still think there had to be better vernacular available for that stat, even if it’s just failed save attempt, (FSA)… And of course that’s the reason we are also now blessed with the FIP. No stat is perfect. They all tell a portion of the story. Never let any singular stat speak louder than another… |
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Post by azbob643 on Apr 5, 2024 18:07:11 GMT -5
ERA can be very misleading for relief pitchers. If a pitcher comes in with the bases loaded and gives up a bases clearing double none of those runs are charged to him. Nor should they be. The reliever gets doinked with a blown save. I still think there had to be better vernacular available for that stat, even if it’s just failed save attempt, (FSA)… And of course that’s the reason we are also now blessed with the FIP. No stat is perfect. They all tell a portion of the story. Never let any singular stat speak louder than another… OK...relief pitcher comes in with runners on 2nd & 3rd, gives up a 2 run single, then an out. He gets the save; no runs charged to him...has a 0.00 ERA. Means nothing. |
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