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Post by inger on Apr 5, 2024 18:13:13 GMT -5
Nor should they be. The reliever gets doinked with a blown save. I still think there had to be better vernacular available for that stat, even if it’s just failed save attempt, (FSA)… And of course that’s the reason we are also now blessed with the FIP. No stat is perfect. They all tell a portion of the story. Never let any singular stat speak louder than another… OK...relief pitcher comes in with runners on 2nd & 3rd, gives up a 2 run single, then an out. He gets the save; no runs charged to him...has a 0.00 ERA. Means nothing. There are other stats there that do though. Hits per inning talked a hit. FIP, WHIP go up, he may get a blown save, and if he has a smart manager and it happens enough he’s getting demoted and won’t be the closer much longer. But I do understand where you’re coming from Bob. Just don’t let that 0.00 speak louder than the other stats. I’m an armchair scientist that dabbles in string theory and such things as the possibilities of time travel and the even more complex reverse time travel. Obviously that means I might be insane, so you better let me get my way on this. 😂… |
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Post by qimqam on Apr 5, 2024 18:22:31 GMT -5
Recent studies have shown this and recent studies have shown that, but I still see ERA as a pretty important stat. When it’s a bit high and became so because of one bad outing I can understand tossing it away…when it’s low, sure. The pitcher may be pitching in some good luck. I get that. But luck is often something you make for yourself. Be close to the middle of the golf course and the bounces you get will more often go in your favor… ERA can be very misleading for relief pitchers. If a pitcher comes in with the bases loaded and gives up a bases clearing double none of those runs are charged to him. Agree but when you are talking about closers (and in this case) it's usually to start the 9th and bases empty The only thing I'm saying is that Holmes pitched in 4 games 4.1 inn against 2 very good offesnive teams and came away with 3 saves and a 0.00 ERA and really should have been 4 for 4 in saves but the defense let him down People are complaining because he didnt blow everyone away and they want to replace him !?!?!? That's crazy ! I'm not saying he's better than Hader I'm not even a big fan of Holmes but he did a great job in the first 4 games and we should be thrilled with that. To say Hader pitched better is just warped thinking Hader in 4 games has a 1.500 WHIP, 6.75 ERA, 2 loses and 0 Saves |
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Post by azbob643 on Apr 5, 2024 18:30:11 GMT -5
ERA can be very misleading for relief pitchers. If a pitcher comes in with the bases loaded and gives up a bases clearing double none of those runs are charged to him. Agree but when you are talking about closers it's usually to start the 9th and bases empty The only thing I'm saying is that Holmes pitched in 4 games 4.1 inn against 2 very good offesnive teams and came away with 3 saves and a 0.00 ERA and really should have been 4 for 4 in saves but the defense let him down People are complaining because he didnt blow everyone away and they want to replace him !?!?!? That's crazy ! I'm not saying he's better than Hader but to say Hader pitched better is just warped thinking Hader in 4 games has a 1.500 WHIP, 6.75 ERA, 2 loses and 0 Saves I'm not criticizing Holmes...just saying ERA is not an accurate way to evaluate relief pitchers, unless it's high. What does drive me crazy is relief pitchers who can't throw strikes. Throwing a wild pitch or hitting a batter in a critical situation is "not what you want". |
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Post by qimqam on Apr 5, 2024 18:33:41 GMT -5
Agree but when you are talking about closers it's usually to start the 9th and bases empty The only thing I'm saying is that Holmes pitched in 4 games 4.1 inn against 2 very good offesnive teams and came away with 3 saves and a 0.00 ERA and really should have been 4 for 4 in saves but the defense let him down People are complaining because he didnt blow everyone away and they want to replace him !?!?!? That's crazy ! I'm not saying he's better than Hader but to say Hader pitched better is just warped thinking Hader in 4 games has a 1.500 WHIP, 6.75 ERA, 2 loses and 0 Saves I'm not criticizing Holmes...just saying ERA is not an accurate way to evaluate relief pitchers, unless it's high. What does drive me crazy is relief pitchers who can't throw strikes. Throwing a wild pitch or hitting a batter in a critical situation is "not what you want". Other than that ... he hasn't walked a batter |
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Post by azbob643 on Apr 5, 2024 18:34:35 GMT -5
I'm not criticizing Holmes...just saying ERA is not an accurate way to evaluate relief pitchers, unless it's high. What does drive me crazy is relief pitchers who can't throw strikes. Throwing a wild pitch or hitting a batter in a critical situation is "not what you want". Other than that ... he hasn't walked a batter Again...not talking specifically about Holmes. |
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Post by qimqam on Apr 5, 2024 18:46:26 GMT -5
Other than that ... he hasn't walked a batter Again...not talking specifically about Holmes. Well in that case I'm sure relief pitchers that have great control but give up hits are going to drive you crazy as well. |
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Post by azbob643 on Apr 5, 2024 18:52:29 GMT -5
Again...not talking specifically about Holmes. Well in that case I'm sure relief pitchers that have great control but give up hits are going to drive you crazy as well. Actually, I rather see a relief pitcher get shelled than walk himself, and the team, into a loss. |
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Post by qimqam on Apr 5, 2024 19:18:27 GMT -5
Well in that case I'm sure relief pitchers that have great control but give up hits are going to drive you crazy as well. Actually, I rather see a relief pitcher get shelled than walk himself, and the team, into a loss. To me a loss is loss and a win is a win I'd rather stress through 4 wins then cruise through 3 and lose 1 |
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Post by 1955nyyfan on Apr 5, 2024 19:57:08 GMT -5
Recent studies have shown this and recent studies have shown that, but I still see ERA as a pretty important stat. When it’s a bit high and became so because of one bad outing I can understand tossing it away…when it’s low, sure. The pitcher may be pitching in some good luck. I get that. But luck is often something you make for yourself. Be close to the middle of the golf course and the bounces you get will more often go in your favor… ERA can be very misleading for relief pitchers. If a pitcher comes in with the bases loaded and gives up a bases clearing double none of those runs are charged to him. For relievers I pay more attention to WHIP and runners inherited. |
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Post by inger on Apr 5, 2024 20:14:41 GMT -5
Other than that ... he hasn't walked a batter Again...not talking specifically about Holmes. Hey Bob. I wasn’t peeing in your pool, I was just jostling you around a bit for fun. Although I actually do study some of that stuff and am likely a bit off center… 😂 |
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Post by inger on Apr 5, 2024 20:15:57 GMT -5
Well in that case I'm sure relief pitchers that have great control but give up hits are going to drive you crazy as well. Actually, I rather see a relief pitcher get shelled than walk himself, and the team, into a loss. Chappy gave us a bit of both. I hated the dumb looking grin he’d have when he gave up the long ball… |
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Post by inger on Apr 5, 2024 20:16:21 GMT -5
ERA can be very misleading for relief pitchers. If a pitcher comes in with the bases loaded and gives up a bases clearing double none of those runs are charged to him. For relievers I pay more attention to WHIP and runners inherited. Good numbers… |
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Post by azbob643 on Apr 5, 2024 20:33:27 GMT -5
Again...not talking specifically about Holmes. Hey Bob. I wasn’t peeing in your pool, I was just jostling you around a bit for fun. Although I actually do study some of that stuff and am likely a bit off center… 😂 Of course...understood. I actually rarely comment re pitchers, and definitely not meant as a criticism of Holmes. Just commenting that ERA is not a good way to evaluate relief pitchers. |
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Post by Max on Apr 5, 2024 23:40:50 GMT -5
ERA is probably the worst stat that a Closer's performance can be judge by.
For example...Overall, Hader out pitched Holmes in the series in Houston.
Other examples would be that a Closer can come into a game and give up 1 earned run and gets the save while his ERA would be 9.00. While another Closer can come into a game with runners on base give up a hit or two meanwhile he can get the save and have an ERA of 0.00.
That's quite an unusual take ... personally I'll take 3 saves and 0.00 ERA over 0 Saves a loss and a 3.00 ERA 100% of the time. Since when is anything more important then runs scored or allowed and wins or losses ??? It's not an unusual take at all, it actually shows why ERA is probably the worst stat that a Closer can be judged by. Another example would be...If a Closer came into a 1 run game with runners on 1st and 2nd base and gave up a 2 run double. That Closer blew a save but still has an ERA of 0.00. |
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Post by Max on Apr 5, 2024 23:51:25 GMT -5
ERA can be very misleading for relief pitchers. If a pitcher comes in with the bases loaded and gives up a bases clearing double none of those runs are charged to him. Agree but when you are talking about closers (and in this case) it's usually to start the 9th and bases empty The only thing I'm saying is that Holmes pitched in 4 games 4.1 inn against 2 very good offesnive teams and came away with 3 saves and a 0.00 ERA and really should have been 4 for 4 in saves but the defense let him down People are complaining because he didnt blow everyone away and they want to replace him !?!?!? That's crazy ! I'm not saying he's better than Hader I'm not even a big fan of Holmes but he did a great job in the first 4 games and we should be thrilled with that. To say Hader pitched better is just warped thinking Hader in 4 games has a 1.500 WHIP, 6.75 ERA, 2 loses and 0 Saves Who are these people that are saying that Holmes had to dominate a game? You said the the Yankees defense let him down and Holmes should really be 4-4 in saves. How do you count his defense letting him down, but not count that his wild pitch the following inning helped the Astros tie the game? Even more so, how do you not count the Yankees defense bailing Holmes out the 2 previous games by making great plays after some of Holmes' pitches were getting tattooed. Also who spoke about Hader vs Holmes so far this season? I know the comment I made said that Hader out pitched Holmes in that series. To deny that would be delusional. |
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