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Post by inger on Sept 1, 2018 23:06:28 GMT -5
I recall the days of childhood. Eisenhower was the first president of my lifetime, but as a very young child I was completely ignorant of his presence. At age 6 in 1st grade I learned that we had a new president, John F. Kennedy. Our teacher gave us each a “signed” portrait of him. As far as I knew he loved us all like we were his children and would take care of us. It’s never been like that since the day he was shot and killed.
Maybe it never really was. Most probably not. But at least for those few short years a little boy that lived in a ramshackle rented house in rural Maryland thought so...
Children lived In Levittown And hid in the shelters underground
Til’ the Soviets turned
Their ships around
And tore the Cuban
Missiles down...
Cold War kids Were hard to kill Under their desk In an air raid drill
Haven't they heard We won the war What do they Keep on fighting for?
B. Joel
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 2, 2018 8:56:29 GMT -5
I was saying that McCain had shitty character... wasn't going into his politics... Everything you said about Trump can be said for McCain, except the doing what's best for your party, not the citizens... McCain did what was best for corporate interests not the citizens... but I really don't feel like beating a dead horse... literally. Guy was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, got preferential treatment in the military... sucked at his job in the military.. (not because he got captured, that was a shit remark by Trump) and constantly flip flopped on issues in his political career.. mostly just being a mouth for the shit that his corporate backers wanted him to spew.. The guy was a wretched human being.. and the world is better off without him in it... there I said it.. I didn't want to and I know it's a horrible thing to say, but this man ended the life of so many fucking innocent people... Sierchio, I am about as apolitical as one can be. And, I've never been an apologist for either party or their members. However, details and decernment are important to me. Categorization and false equivalency breed obfuscation and myopia of thought...and worst of all, it's easy. Habiting oneself to questioning and exploring views contrary to one's own is time consuming and intellectually and emotionally difficult, but therein lies empathy, education, and sometimes enlightenment. I never supported John McCain, but I have respect for him in several areas. For instance, because he was related to admirals, he could have been released years earlier from the Viet Cong. He refused to skip over other POWs or receive special dispensation, which led to the VC placing him in solitary confinement for two years and regular torture every few hours. McCain also co-authored legislation on campaign finance reform, against corporate and other soft money contributions, as well as anti- pork-belly legislation. McCain is not a hero to me, and I believe it can be argued that he played a prominent role - consciously or not - in fomenting the environment of anti-intellectualism and alternative facts that exists today. However, if I were in a fox hole, I have a clear idea of who I would not choose over him.
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Post by inger on Sept 2, 2018 11:17:02 GMT -5
There are really so few people that are truly and completely wretched on this planet. It's not wise to hold hatred for anyone that you truly don't know. Extremism is born of such hatred and leads to other retched behaviors. It's fun to "hate" the Red Sox, for example in a hyperbolic world. In a figurative world if you cross a line and truly develop a true hatred for the Red Sox and all of their fans, you become an extremist. You might then justify destruction of any property that has a Red Sox logo or pennant on display, or begin to have physical confrontations with Red Sox fans...
I hope what we've encountered is hyberbolic language that is over-expressing your views. In a vast universe in which we see and know only about 4% of what there is to see and know it is far better to offer a modicum of lave and respect for all human beings, even though you may strongly disagree with their politics or ethics...It is best that if we feel that McCain made mistakes in judgement we remember that he had many supporters that believed in him and the job is to convince those supporters to change their policies...
I never really cared for McCain's politics. I often felt as though he was indeed a war-monger. But he stood for what he believed, and I believe that he truly thought he was doing good for mankind. The world may be better off without him in office. It is highly questionable that the world is better for his death. He had a life with a family and friends that relied on him and loved him. As rizzuto wrote, it is far better to learn more about the man and to be informed of the good and the bad he did than to spew vitriol...
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Post by sierchio on Sept 2, 2018 14:32:49 GMT -5
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Post by sierchio on Sept 2, 2018 14:34:42 GMT -5
Real insight into his character... Trust me, I've seen more than enough of the 'good' he did. I think more people need to be cognizant of the bad, before they anoint him some kind of a hero. Obviously, it was a little bit of hyperbole saying the world was a better place... the world is definitely a better place with him not making political decisions.
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Post by sierchio on Sept 2, 2018 14:43:01 GMT -5
I'm very open minded when it comes to most shit.. but I will admit, I'm an extremist when it comes to my anti-meaningless war views.. and that's why McCain rubs me the wrong way.. Nothing more despicable in my mind than someone willing to risk the lives of innocent Americans to kill innocent people in other countries for political gain and money...
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Post by inger on Sept 2, 2018 14:53:49 GMT -5
I'm very open minded when it comes to most shit.. but I will admit, I'm an extremist when it comes to my anti-meaningless war views.. and that's why McCain rubs me the wrong way.. Nothing more despicable in my mind than someone willing to risk the lives of innocent Americans to kill innocent people in other countries for political gain and money... It’s always been the way of the world, which doesn’t make it right. It’s not a 100% truth, but for the most part war is declared by old, wealthy men and fought by young men of lesser financial means...Most wars are publicly declared as standing up for right and defending the weak, but they also always have an ancillary financial agenda...
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 2, 2018 16:01:29 GMT -5
I'm very open minded when it comes to most shit.. but I will admit, I'm an extremist when it comes to my anti-meaningless war views.. and that's why McCain rubs me the wrong way.. Nothing more despicable in my mind than someone willing to risk the lives of innocent Americans to kill innocent people in other countries for political gain and money... It’s always been the way of the world, which doesn’t make it right. It’s not a 100% truth, but for the most part war is declared by old, wealthy men and fought by young men of lesser financial means...Most wars are publicly declared as standing up for right and defending the weak, but they also always have an ancillary financial agenda... ALWAYS a financial agenda.
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Post by sierchio on Sept 2, 2018 16:07:27 GMT -5
True inger, very true. But just because it's been the way doesn't mean it has to be. It might be very naive of me to think that.. and the cynic in my fights that notion a lot. Look at the shit going on with Trump and read between the lines.. Why is the intelligence community fighting him so bad? Could it be because he's not "towing the company line," in regards to Syria? He was 100% against going to war with Syria when he was running for office. Then, when he gave in and bombed Syria, they cried "but he only bombed air strips!!!" That's just my opinion on the matter. And as far as Russia... "How can you be friends with Russia... Putin is an evil evil man!!" Well, yeah, Putin is a POS (calling him a war criminal is ignoring the fact that there's worse people in our CIA).. but isn't it better to be friends with other countries than enemies? Why should we be scared of Russia? Our military budget is about 4x the amount of theirs.. so if we're told to be scared of them, maybe we should cut the budget of the military because obviously they need to find better ways to waste the tax payers money. These are really simplistic ways of me expressing my feelings on a very complex problem so yes, there may be faults in them, but I think you can see what I'm trying to say.
As far as the extremist views go... I've been saying this a while.. we live in a democracy.. people need to stop being so tribilistic in backing political parties views 100%... and learn to give a little. I'm very pro gun, but in the gun debating I'm willing to accept that maybe fully automatic guns should be illegal or harder to get. I think education will go a long way to solving that problem. I don't think America has a gun problem, I think we have a mental health crisis, and trying to figure that out will go a long way towards curbing the amount of mass shootings. I think the left's exploiting of mass shootings to promote their anti gun agendas is just as bad as the rights exploiting of when an illegal immigrant kills somebody. We need to find a middle ground on that issue as well. We can't open our borders 100% but we need to figure out why so many people chose to come here the illegal way instead of the legal way. Maybe we need to rework out immigration policies to reflect on that. I don't know the answer... but we can't have open boarders (maybe one day all nations will have open boarders, ha) but we also can't deport every illegal immigrant... we need to work together to find some middle ground.. even if that leaves people on both sides of the issue not happy.
Sorry if this is jumbled up.. I had some issues to tend to a couple times during this post so I lost train of thought a few times and left out some stuff that I wanted to write about.. but I hope you can understand my point. Being an extremist on either side of issues is not good.. We need to strive to find middle ground.. Still not willing to comprise on war though...
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Post by sierchio on Sept 2, 2018 16:09:07 GMT -5
It’s always been the way of the world, which doesn’t make it right. It’s not a 100% truth, but for the most part war is declared by old, wealthy men and fought by young men of lesser financial means...Most wars are publicly declared as standing up for right and defending the weak, but they also always have an ancillary financial agenda... ALWAYS a financial agenda. And it's a shame because it's people like us who suffer... the 99% suffer.. I think it's funny that outlaw bikers call themselves 1%ers.. when the real criminals are the other 1%ers... (I'm done with the political talk for today.. so sorry if I don't respond..)
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Post by sierchio on Sept 2, 2018 18:18:58 GMT -5
I have a few minutes, so I just wanted to apologize. I was thinking about it while cooking dinner and I should have never said this world is a better place without John McCain in it. Sometimes we take politics a little too personal and post stupid shit... and I apologize. I don't care about offending people, that's not why I apologize, I apologize because it was just stupid.
People, myself included, tend to make arguments in the heat of the moment and sometimes go a little too far and say stupid shit. I only have a minute so I just wanted to post this, but I have a well thought out post in my head and don't want to screw it up by rushing it.
The post has nothing to do with McCain or politics but just about how people screw up like I did and it invalids valid points by turning people off your argument.
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Post by inger on Sept 2, 2018 20:08:43 GMT -5
I have a few minutes, so I just wanted to apologize. I was thinking about it while cooking dinner and I should have never said this world is a better place without John McCain in it. Sometimes we take politics a little too personal and post stupid shit... and I apologize. I don't care about offending people, that's not why I apologize, I apologize because it was just stupid. People, myself included, tend to make arguments in the heat of the moment and sometimes go a little too far and say stupid shit. I only have a minute so I just wanted to post this, but I have a well thought out post in my head and don't want to screw it up by rushing it. The post has nothing to do with McCain or politics but just about how people screw up like I did and it invalids valid points by turning people off your argument. Excellent move on your part. Now you can get just the slightest inkling of what it's like to be famous and shoot some dumb crap off in a Tweet and wish you could pull it back...
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Post by inger on Sept 2, 2018 20:31:53 GMT -5
The problem with posting an article like this is that although there is probably a lot of truth in here, there is also some hyperbole. There is certainly an agenda behind the stories as none of them offer a single shred of good information about McCain...It does sound like he made some decisions that a lot of young men would make if they were put in his position that are questionable at best. But who among us has made all perfect decisions every day, and stood up perfectly when faced with adversity every time? I know I haven't. I know that most people I know haven't. Heroes are heroes because they're rare breeds of people. Sometimes people wind up losing their lives because they risked them foolishly in hopeless situations. Sometimes we make a split second decision based on the small amount of information in front of us at a given moment. I recall when I was a young driver that I witnessed a head on crash in front of me. My blood ran cold and time seemed to stand still. I was frozen in place with my ex-wife and young son in the car. I'm sure it was only a minute or so, but it seemed like an hour before someone ran out from the business the accident occurred in front of and gave attention to the folks that were driving. As it turned out, it was fortunate that no one was seriously injured in either vehicle. But in that moment that I froze, perhaps I could have been of comfort. I would react differently now. At least I think I would. Back then, the site of blood would immediately put my system into what was called "minor shock". I would grow feint immediately. I feared what I might see, and that I might not be able to function. I do a lot better now than I did back then. Heck, I still can't donate blood, not that anyone wants blood from a diabetic. Does this make me a coward? Perhaps in some non-understanding eyes, yes. The truth is that I was somewhat helpless to react. I hated that, but I had no control of it. On the other hand, I once disarmed a man carrying a knife and saying threatening things to myself and some ladies nearby. I did CPR on a co-worker who died of a heart attack in the break room of the business where I worked. We react as we react. One day, we're a hero, the next we're a zero. We're human. Even John McCain had a right to be human, right? To be honest, I read only a few snippets of this article. I figure that the information may be relevant if the man were still living and running for office. If he might have an impact on my life today or tomorrow. But he's not. When I could see it was an article that was obviously written with a negative agenda in mind, my reaction was that I didn't want to waste my time filling my head with shit that would whirl around in there and may come out at the wrong moment. Especially since it's now all pretty meaningless. The man is dead. It doesn't make him better, nor worse than he was when he was alive. It just is. That's why the phrase R.I.P. came about. Just let him rest in peace...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 5:42:14 GMT -5
By a lot of accounts he wasn’t a very good husband in his first marriage, was a braggart, womanizer, sometimes drank to excess and flip flopped on issues. He also sucked it up as a POW in an admittedly immoral war that wasn’t his doing, putting his men first despite having an opportunity to get out of Dodge early. He stood up to people in his own party when he felt the need, was well liked by many, disliked by many and at the end of his life spit in the eye of a despotic tyrant. He faced death about as good natured as possible and had family and friends weeping over his coffin. On balance a life fairly well lived with enough dives into human frailty to make him interesting, plus a couple of stabs at the brass ring along the journey.
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 3, 2018 6:29:57 GMT -5
The problem with posting an article like this is that although there is probably a lot of truth in here, there is also some hyperbole. There is certainly an agenda behind the stories as none of them offer a single shred of good information about McCain...It does sound like he made some decisions that a lot of young men would make if they were put in his position that are questionable at best. But who among us has made all perfect decisions every day, and stood up perfectly when faced with adversity every time? I know I haven't. I know that most people I know haven't. Heroes are heroes because they're rare breeds of people. Sometimes people wind up losing their lives because they risked them foolishly in hopeless situations. Sometimes we make a split second decision based on the small amount of information in front of us at a given moment. I recall when I was a young driver that I witnessed a head on crash in front of me. My blood ran cold and time seemed to stand still. I was frozen in place with my ex-wife and young son in the car. I'm sure it was only a minute or so, but it seemed like an hour before someone ran out from the business the accident occurred in front of and gave attention to the folks that were driving. As it turned out, it was fortunate that no one was seriously injured in either vehicle. But in that moment that I froze, perhaps I could have been of comfort. I would react differently now. At least I think I would. Back then, the site of blood would immediately put my system into what was called "minor shock". I would grow feint immediately. I feared what I might see, and that I might not be able to function. I do a lot better now than I did back then. Heck, I still can't donate blood, not that anyone wants blood from a diabetic. Does this make me a coward? Perhaps in some non-understanding eyes, yes. The truth is that I was somewhat helpless to react. I hated that, but I had no control of it. On the other hand, I once disarmed a man carrying a knife and saying threatening things to myself and some ladies nearby. I did CPR on a co-worker who died of a heart attack in the break room of the business where I worked. We react as we react. One day, we're a hero, the next we're a zero. We're human. Even John McCain had a right to be human, right? To be honest, I read only a few snippets of this article. I figure that the information may be relevant if the man were still living and running for office. If he might have an impact on my life today or tomorrow. But he's not. When I could see it was an article that was obviously written with a negative agenda in mind, my reaction was that I didn't want to waste my time filling my head with shit that would whirl around in there and may come out at the wrong moment. Especially since it's now all pretty meaningless. The man is dead. It doesn't make him better, nor worse than he was when he was alive. It just is. That's why the phrase R.I.P. came about. Just let him rest in peace... Okay, thanks for all the straight lines to play into... "It was a butter knife, but hey, who knows where it had been." "It was a plastic knife, well a spork really, buy hey, those things can splinter." "Well, it was really the ladies who disarmed him, but I strongly encouraged them." "It turned out to be a nail clipper, but hey, you can't take those on planes." "After I knocked over his oxygen tank, he gave up the knife. Well, really, I just picked it up." "After I kicked his cane, I grabbed the knife. Well, really, I just picked it up." "During the struggle, the knife lodged under his wheelchair." By the way, in all of these scenarios, you're wearing a sombrero.
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