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Post by Max on Apr 18, 2024 16:45:42 GMT -5
No, but let me know when Holmes pitches like Mo did in 1996 when Mo dominated at times for more than 1 inning. Who's the better pitcher Hader or Holmes?
Funny you should say that because Hader is strictly a 1 inning pitcher. Right now it's Holmes. And not only is he pitching better, he's not attached to a costly/long contract.
What's funny about it? For his career in 359 games Hader pitched 397.1 innings. So he hasn't always been a 1 inning pitcher.
Right now Holmes? That's not saying much since the 2024 season isn't even a month old, and as far as I know Hader's teammates haven't bailed him out of 2 or 3 games.
I asked who was the better pitcher, I didn't ask anything about contract status. Holmes is in his contract year. Do you think he gets the same kind of contract that Hader just recently signed?
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Post by Max on Apr 18, 2024 17:30:29 GMT -5
But 20 save opportunities? 70-50 saves is a big difference.
I like that you used the word opportunities, Max. In 2023 when Holmes saved 20, the Yankees employed several Other relievers to save 20 more games. In 2023, with Holmes saving 24, the Yankees garnered 17 additional saves from other pitchers. In Hader’s case, he was fully established as “the closer” by his team. The only time someone else got an opportunity was when he was not available. That was true even in 2022 when he was not pitching well, I suppose because of his track record and the hope that he’d come back to his previous level of effectiveness. Do who’s best? At one time the answer was easy. It was Hader. Today, with Holmes atop the AL with 7 saves and a 0.00 ERA, and Hader getting rapped around at 8.31, the answer is not so easy. Hader had a great 2023 after a poor 2022 (in which he still got a bunch of saves). The start to 2024 is not promising. Would I trade Holmes one on one for Hader today? Heck no! I want no parts of Hader, who by the way had not had a long run. He’s not near the top of the list of greatest closers of all time. There have been many pitchers who have pitched well as long as he did and then faltered. In any event, 70-50? I just showed you 41 known opportunities that other Yankee pitchers got. And that doesn’t count any saves those other Yankees failed to get. Holmes has had to fight to keep his job for the Yankees every year. He’s not perfect, but he keeps getting more opportunities than any other Yankee hurler. There’s a reason for that. He’s the best we have… I think I know the answer, but perhaps I'm wrong. Holmes' first save in 2022 came on May 18th. Can you explain to me why in 2022 and in 2023 the Yankees needed to employ several other relievers to save so many games?
What do you think the reason is why Hader is fully established as “the closer”, and Holmes has to fight to keep his job for the Yankees every year?
I don't subscribe to the what has he done lately stuff when it comes to looking at a players overall talent. Holmes had a better 3 weeks than Hader. An argument can be made that's because Holmes' teammates fielding bailed him out of 2 or 3 games.
I never said Holmes is a bad pitcher, but in my opinion he's a better pitcher in the 7th or 8th innings. I also don't expect any pitcher or player to be perfect, that includes Gleyber Torres.
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Post by inger on Apr 18, 2024 17:33:20 GMT -5
I like that you used the word opportunities, Max. In 2023 when Holmes saved 20, the Yankees employed several Other relievers to save 20 more games. In 2023, with Holmes saving 24, the Yankees garnered 17 additional saves from other pitchers. In Hader’s case, he was fully established as “the closer” by his team. The only time someone else got an opportunity was when he was not available. That was true even in 2022 when he was not pitching well, I suppose because of his track record and the hope that he’d come back to his previous level of effectiveness. Do who’s best? At one time the answer was easy. It was Hader. Today, with Holmes atop the AL with 7 saves and a 0.00 ERA, and Hader getting rapped around at 8.31, the answer is not so easy. Hader had a great 2023 after a poor 2022 (in which he still got a bunch of saves). The start to 2024 is not promising. Would I trade Holmes one on one for Hader today? Heck no! I want no parts of Hader, who by the way had not had a long run. He’s not near the top of the list of greatest closers of all time. There have been many pitchers who have pitched well as long as he did and then faltered. In any event, 70-50? I just showed you 41 known opportunities that other Yankee pitchers got. And that doesn’t count any saves those other Yankees failed to get. Holmes has had to fight to keep his job for the Yankees every year. He’s not perfect, but he keeps getting more opportunities than any other Yankee hurler. There’s a reason for that. He’s the best we have… I think I know the answer, but perhaps I'm wrong. Holmes' first save in 2022 came on May 18th. Can you explain to me why in 2022 and in 2023 the Yankees needed to employ several other relievers to save so many games?
What do you think the reason is why Hader is fully established as “the closer”, and Holmes has to fight to keep his job for the Yankees every year?
I don't subscribe to the what has he done lately stuff when it comes to looking at a players overall talent. Holmes had a better 3 weeks than Hader. An argument can be made that's because Holmes' teammates fielding bailed him out of 2 or 3 games.
I never said Holmes is a bad pitcher, but in my opinion he's a better pitcher in the 7th or 8th innings. I also don't expect any pitcher or player to be perfect, that includes Gleyber Torres.
You’re under rating Holmes. 97-98 with the sinker isn’t common… but you’re entitled to your opinion… |
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Post by Max on Apr 18, 2024 17:36:17 GMT -5
Funny you should say that because Hader is strictly a 1 inning pitcher. Right now it's Holmes. And not only is he pitching better, he's not attached to a costly/long contract. The fact that Hader’s ego and precious arm refuses to even get one extra out for his team truly turned me off on him. I can’t feel bad for his failure at this point… As speculated during the Yankees/Astros broadcast that might have been because that Hader was in his contract year and that might not apply now that he's signed. I don't know if that was the reason or not, but I'm not going to judge Hader. Looking at his career he wasn't always a 1 inning pitcher. Are there many Closers in today's MLB that aren't 1 inning pitchers? |
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Post by Max on Apr 18, 2024 18:22:26 GMT -5
I think I know the answer, but perhaps I'm wrong. Holmes' first save in 2022 came on May 18th. Can you explain to me why in 2022 and in 2023 the Yankees needed to employ several other relievers to save so many games?
What do you think the reason is why Hader is fully established as “the closer”, and Holmes has to fight to keep his job for the Yankees every year?
I don't subscribe to the what has he done lately stuff when it comes to looking at a players overall talent. Holmes had a better 3 weeks than Hader. An argument can be made that's because Holmes' teammates fielding bailed him out of 2 or 3 games.
I never said Holmes is a bad pitcher, but in my opinion he's a better pitcher in the 7th or 8th innings. I also don't expect any pitcher or player to be perfect, that includes Gleyber Torres.
You’re under rating Holmes. 97-98 with the sinker isn’t common… but you’re entitled to your opinion… About our Hader, Holmes discussion, I'm going to agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing your opinion and thoughts. Have a goodnight Inger. |
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Post by themartian on Apr 18, 2024 18:43:28 GMT -5
Funny you should say that because Hader is strictly a 1 inning pitcher. Right now it's Holmes. And not only is he pitching better, he's not attached to a costly/long contract.
What's funny about it? For his career in 359 games Hader pitched 397.1 innings. So he hasn't always been a 1 inning pitcher.
Right now Holmes? That's not saying much since the 2024 season isn't even a month old, and as far as I know Hader's teammates haven't bailed him out of 2 or 3 games.
I asked who was the better pitcher, I didn't ask anything about contract status. Holmes is in his contract year. Do you think he gets the same kind of contract that Hader just recently signed?
Any team that signed Hader got a 1 inning pitcher. He's been that way for years now. He's put up less innings than appearances every single year from 2020 onwards. So I find it funny you're a Hader stan, yet you appreciate relievers who can pitch more than one inning. It's ironic. So his 8.31 ERA is all because of the Astros defense? They're a pretty good defensive team last I checked so that's surprising. Why are you so invested in defending an Astro? I would think that like me, other Yankee fans should be delighted that Hader is stinking up the joint (for 19 million) and helping see the Astros off to a woeful start. Yes, right now Holmes. Going back to 2022, Holmes. I hope not because I don't think the Yanks will be willing to pay that much for a reliever when they're so good at finding them out of nowhere, like - well like Clay Holmes. Let's just hope that Hader is a gift that keep on giving to Houston at 19 million a year. |
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Post by qimqam on Apr 18, 2024 21:27:11 GMT -5
They're baaaack !!!!
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Post by Max on Apr 18, 2024 21:28:02 GMT -5
What's funny about it? For his career in 359 games Hader pitched 397.1 innings. So he hasn't always been a 1 inning pitcher.
Right now Holmes? That's not saying much since the 2024 season isn't even a month old, and as far as I know Hader's teammates haven't bailed him out of 2 or 3 games.
I asked who was the better pitcher, I didn't ask anything about contract status. Holmes is in his contract year. Do you think he gets the same kind of contract that Hader just recently signed?
Any team that signed Hader got a 1 inning pitcher. He's been that way for years now. He's put up less innings than appearances every single year from 2020 onwards. So I find it funny you're a Hader stan, yet you appreciate relievers who can pitch more than one inning. It's ironic. So his 8.31 ERA is all because of the Astros defense? They're a pretty good defensive team last I checked so that's surprising. Why are you so invested in defending an Astro? I would think that like me, other Yankee fans should be delighted that Hader is stinking up the joint (for 19 million) and helping see the Astros off to a woeful start. Yes, right now Holmes. Going back to 2022, Holmes. I hope not because I don't think the Yanks will be willing to pay that much for a reliever when they're so good at finding them out of nowhere, like - well like Clay Holmes. Let's just hope that Hader is a gift that keep on giving to Houston at 19 million a year. Most Closers these days are 1 inning pitchers. The 1 inning stuff was also addressed in my reply to Inger, which included what was being speculated about on the Yankees Astros telecast. It's not an either or choice, so I don't know what you find ironic about me giving a Closer like Hader the credit he deserves while also giving credit to pitchers that pitch more than one inning. Who said anything about Astros defense had anything to do with Hader's ERA? Do you deny that the Yankees defense has a lot to do with Holmes' ERA? Also don't you dare ask me a foolish question about be being so invested in defending an Astro when you said this about a YANKEE 2Bman..."Gleyber again being the turd in the punch bowl." Allow me to explain to you how it works... Hader doesn't need any defending, his career stats speak for themselves. I wouldn't call myself a Hader fan as if I root for him, but I am a fan of his talent just like I'm a fan of other talented MLB players that aren't Yankees. That doesn't mean that I root for them or their teams. Try to remember that before assuming or what you "would think". Especially since I already said that I hope that Holmes out pitches Hader. By the way, you aren't fooling me. Have fun criticizing Hader, Torres, and whomever all you want, I couldn't careless. This is a peaceful message board. I will take no part in an endless back and forth. I guess, my first mistake was not deleting my reply about this topic before a nice poster named Rizzuto replied to my post. |
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Post by Max on Apr 18, 2024 21:32:13 GMT -5
They're baaaack !!!! There is no "they're". |
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Post by themartian on Apr 19, 2024 6:25:36 GMT -5
Any team that signed Hader got a 1 inning pitcher. He's been that way for years now. He's put up less innings than appearances every single year from 2020 onwards. So I find it funny you're a Hader stan, yet you appreciate relievers who can pitch more than one inning. It's ironic. So his 8.31 ERA is all because of the Astros defense? They're a pretty good defensive team last I checked so that's surprising. Why are you so invested in defending an Astro? I would think that like me, other Yankee fans should be delighted that Hader is stinking up the joint (for 19 million) and helping see the Astros off to a woeful start. Yes, right now Holmes. Going back to 2022, Holmes. I hope not because I don't think the Yanks will be willing to pay that much for a reliever when they're so good at finding them out of nowhere, like - well like Clay Holmes. Let's just hope that Hader is a gift that keep on giving to Houston at 19 million a year. Most Closers these days are 1 inning pitchers. The 1 inning stuff was also addressed in my reply to Inger, which included what was being speculated about on the Yankees Astros telecast. It's not an either or choice, so I don't know what you find ironic about me giving a Closer like Hader the credit he deserves while also giving credit to pitchers that pitch more than one inning. Who said anything about Astros defense had anything to do with Hader's ERA? Do you deny that the Yankees defense has a lot to do with Holmes' ERA? Also don't you dare ask me a foolish question about be being so invested in defending an Astro when you said this about a YANKEE 2Bman..."Gleyber again being the turd in the punch bowl." Allow me to explain to you how it works... Hader doesn't need any defending, his career stats speak for themselves. I wouldn't call myself a Hader fan as if I root for him, but I am a fan of his talent just like I'm a fan of other talented MLB players that aren't Yankees. That doesn't mean that I root for them or their teams. Try to remember that before assuming or what you "would think". Especially since I already said that I hope that Holmes out pitches Hader. By the way, you aren't fooling me. Have fun criticizing Hader, Torres, and whomever all you want, I couldn't careless. This is a peaceful message board. I will take no part in an endless back and forth. I guess, my first mistake was not deleting my reply about this topic before a nice poster named Rizzuto replied to my post. Based on your history, I seriously doubt that one. I just get the feeling that if Hader turns in to latter day Craig Kimbrel that you're going to take it personally somehow instead of enjoying the Astros misery. Not sure why that is? And please, fans get frustrated with players on their own team all the time. The hate Stanton took last year was off the charts and you're worried I got mad at Gleyber and his horrible start? It's his errors especially that bother me because that should be avoidable. Turd in the 13-6 great start punch bowl is accurate IMO. He needs to turn things around or he's going to be looking at one year bounce-back deals as a FA. |
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Post by Max on Apr 19, 2024 10:38:45 GMT -5
Most Closers these days are 1 inning pitchers. The 1 inning stuff was also addressed in my reply to Inger, which included what was being speculated about on the Yankees Astros telecast. It's not an either or choice, so I don't know what you find ironic about me giving a Closer like Hader the credit he deserves while also giving credit to pitchers that pitch more than one inning. Who said anything about Astros defense had anything to do with Hader's ERA? Do you deny that the Yankees defense has a lot to do with Holmes' ERA? Also don't you dare ask me a foolish question about be being so invested in defending an Astro when you said this about a YANKEE 2Bman..."Gleyber again being the turd in the punch bowl." Allow me to explain to you how it works... Hader doesn't need any defending, his career stats speak for themselves. I wouldn't call myself a Hader fan as if I root for him, but I am a fan of his talent just like I'm a fan of other talented MLB players that aren't Yankees. That doesn't mean that I root for them or their teams. Try to remember that before assuming or what you "would think". Especially since I already said that I hope that Holmes out pitches Hader. By the way, you aren't fooling me. Have fun criticizing Hader, Torres, and whomever all you want, I couldn't careless. This is a peaceful message board. I will take no part in an endless back and forth. I guess, my first mistake was not deleting my reply about this topic before a nice poster named Rizzuto replied to my post. Based on your history, I seriously doubt that one. I just get the feeling that if Hader turns in to latter day Craig Kimbrel that you're going to take it personally somehow instead of enjoying the Astros misery. Not sure why that is? And please, fans get frustrated with players on their own team all the time. The hate Stanton took last year was off the charts and you're worried I got mad at Gleyber and his horrible start? It's his errors especially that bother me because that should be avoidable. Turd in the 13-6 great start punch bowl is accurate IMO. He needs to turn things around or he's going to be looking at one year bounce-back deals as a FA.
Look at the flaws with your own history, which in my opinion, include trouble-making, pushing buttons, attention starved, need for an audience, and for whatever reason taking posts out of context. Now, with that I will give you the last word on this thread, that way if you choose you can declare yourself "the winner" in a game where you're the only contestant.
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Post by 1955nyyfan on Apr 19, 2024 11:04:39 GMT -5
Funny you should say that because Hader is strictly a 1 inning pitcher. Right now it's Holmes. And not only is he pitching better, he's not attached to a costly/long contract.
What's funny about it? For his career in 359 games Hader pitched 397.1 innings. So he hasn't always been a 1 inning pitcher.
Right now Holmes? That's not saying much since the 2024 season isn't even a month old, and as far as I know Hader's teammates haven't bailed him out of 2 or 3 games.
I asked who was the better pitcher, I didn't ask anything about contract status. Holmes is in his contract year. Do you think he gets the same kind of contract that Hader just recently signed?
Getting caught up on posts and wanted to comment on this one a bit late. Max, you are correct that salary doesn't always have a bearing on performance (hope I said that right), but it does equate to value. Hader is making more than 3 times the salary of Holmes. Maybe if there wasn't a salary cap and the Yankees were truely "all-in", say like the Dodgers, he would have been a good offseason get. I wanted us to stay away from him because of the value proposition. Even with all his warts, I think Holmes is a better value. Hader could and likely will turn it around this year and Holmes will probably have a few bumps in the road, but I still think we made the correct decision passing on Hader. |
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Post by Max on Apr 19, 2024 11:16:26 GMT -5
What's funny about it? For his career in 359 games Hader pitched 397.1 innings. So he hasn't always been a 1 inning pitcher.
Right now Holmes? That's not saying much since the 2024 season isn't even a month old, and as far as I know Hader's teammates haven't bailed him out of 2 or 3 games.
I asked who was the better pitcher, I didn't ask anything about contract status. Holmes is in his contract year. Do you think he gets the same kind of contract that Hader just recently signed?
Getting caught up on posts and wanted to comment on this one a bit late. Max, you are correct that salary doesn't always have a bearing on performance (hope I said that right), but it does equate to value. Hader is making more than 3 times the salary of Holmes. Maybe if there wasn't a salary cap and the Yankees were truely "all-in", say like the Dodgers, he would have been a good offseason get. I wanted us to stay away from him because of the value proposition. Even with all his warts, I think Holmes is a better value. Hader could and likely will turn it around this year and Holmes will probably have a few bumps in the road, but I still think we made the correct decision passing on Hader. 55, at first I thought that the Yankees missed an opportunity to sign one of MLB's best Closers. I then learned that as with Snell, that signing Hader would have cost the Yankees picks, and international bonus money. After learning that, I no longer thought that the Yankees made a mistake by not signing Hader. |
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Post by ypaterson on Apr 19, 2024 11:26:27 GMT -5
What's funny about it? For his career in 359 games Hader pitched 397.1 innings. So he hasn't always been a 1 inning pitcher.
Right now Holmes? That's not saying much since the 2024 season isn't even a month old, and as far as I know Hader's teammates haven't bailed him out of 2 or 3 games.
I asked who was the better pitcher, I didn't ask anything about contract status. Holmes is in his contract year. Do you think he gets the same kind of contract that Hader just recently signed?
Getting caught up on posts and wanted to comment on this one a bit late. Max, you are correct that salary doesn't always have a bearing on performance (hope I said that right), but it does equate to value. Hader is making more than 3 times the salary of Holmes. Maybe if there wasn't a salary cap and the Yankees were truely "all-in", say like the Dodgers, he would have been a good offseason get. I wanted us to stay away from him because of the value proposition. Even with all his warts, I think Holmes is a better value. Hader could and likely will turn it around this year and Holmes will probably have a few bumps in the road, but I still think we made the correct decision passing on Hader. I predict we are going to be returning to the conversation about price and value a lot this offseason. |
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Post by Max on Apr 19, 2024 11:30:42 GMT -5
Getting caught up on posts and wanted to comment on this one a bit late. Max, you are correct that salary doesn't always have a bearing on performance (hope I said that right), but it does equate to value. Hader is making more than 3 times the salary of Holmes. Maybe if there wasn't a salary cap and the Yankees were truely "all-in", say like the Dodgers, he would have been a good offseason get. I wanted us to stay away from him because of the value proposition. Even with all his warts, I think Holmes is a better value. Hader could and likely will turn it around this year and Holmes will probably have a few bumps in the road, but I still think we made the correct decision passing on Hader. I predict we are going to be returning to the conversation about price and value a lot this offseason. Pat, it should be an interesting off season for the Yankees. I can't speak for them, but if they are looking to re-sign Soto, they might look to save money elsewhere. |
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