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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 15:56:12 GMT -5
St Louis Cardinals all time team. SP: Bob Gibson, Mort Cooper, Bill Doak, Harry Brecheen. AAA: Dizzy Dean, Adam Wainwright, John Tudor, Slim Sallee. RP: Jason Isringhausen, Todd Worrell, Catcher: Yadier Molina, Ted Simmons. AAA: Tim McCarver First: Albert Pujols, Johnny Mize. AAA: Jim Bottomley, Mark McGuire, Ripper Collins Second: Rogers Hornsby, Frankie Frisch. AAA: Red Schoendienst, Third: Ken Boyer, Scott Rolen. AAA: Whitey Kurwoski Short: Ozzie Smith, Edgar Renteria. AAA: Marty Marion OF: Stan Musial, Joe Medwick, Lou Brock. AAA: Enos Slaughter, Chick Hafey, Curt Flood, Jim Edmonds Utility: Joe Torre Tough calls at first, but the rest not that hard. For as many years that they've been around, the Cards haven't had that many great pitchers. Especially the bullpen. Players I reluctantly had to leave out, 1B Keith Hernandez, 1B Bill White, OF Matt Holiday, OF Willie McGee, OF/3B Pepper Martin, Good job, Desousa. Definitely one of the elite squads, as you would expect from one of the true legacy franchises. Although I get tired of hearing about how great their fans are, I have a lot of respect for the Cardinals. Plus I love those classic uniforms, which have retained very similar elements since at least the 1920s. I do think I would have included Chris Carpenter on the pitching staff over Spittin' Bill Doak -- his stats are pretty amazing -- although he was a singularly unpleasant individual from what I recall. My father's first baseball glove was a Bill Doak model from sometime back in the 1930s, even though Doak had been out of baseball by then I believe. Ken Boyer was an outstanding third baseman. He was overshadowed by Eddie Mathews (one of the five greatest ever IMO) in his day, and then Brooks came along a few years into his career, but he was highly respected, so steady at the plate and in the field. I can never forgive his grand slam against Al Downing in the 1964 World Series to give the Cardinals a 4-3 win and turn the tide of that series that the Yanks could easily have won. Keith Hernandez ranks right in there with those other great first-sackers for the Cards. His stats with St. Louis were great, plus he fielded that position about as well as anybody ever. While I could not put him above Pujols, I think he is at least in the conversation with the other top first basemen. And as you noted, Bill White deserves mention too. I am guessing Cepeda did not have enough time with St. Louis, but there was another top-notch first sacker for them. Pepper Martin has always fascinated me, although I do agree with your decision not to put him on the team. Anybody nicknamed "The Wild Horse of the Osage" gets my attention. I knew people, including my father, who saw him in his prime, and they loved to watch him play. A daring, even reckless, player who would probably drive a devout Sabrmetrician nuts, but he obviously gave you a show. Maybe wrong, but I always give a few points to those guys. I might have had Dizzy Dean as a primary starter. I know his career was short, but in his prime and for a big game, I wouldn't mind having him show up the day after Gibson. Certainly another one who gave you your money's worth as a spectator. Or as an announcer, for those of you who remember his "Game of the Week" broadcasts. Branch Rickey used to say, one more like him and I would be out of this game. Ol' Diz on the baseball broadcasts...when things got slow or uninteresting, he would break into singing "The Cannonball Express"...I remember after he had recently passed, and the John Denver song about West Virginia was played in the stadium...one of the announcers remarked how Dizzy would have loved that song...…Dizzy was as bright as a meteor in the 30's and despite the early injury, he has to be there...just like Gooden has to be with the Mets...Dean was every bit as brilliant... |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 16:01:11 GMT -5
A few more random Cardinal thoughts. Boy was Jim Edmonds fun to watch. I was living in LA when he played for the Angels and it seemed like almost every game he would make an eye-popping catch. He and Torii Hunter were maybe the two most exciting CFers of their day. Or any day, for that matter. Boy have they had some legendary managers. Tony LaRussa is their winningest, but they have had the likes of Bill McKechnie, Billy Southworth, Gabby Street, Frankie Frisch, Red Schoendienst, Whitey Herzog and of course Mike Metheny. Not to mention other baseball greats who didn't set the world on fire as Cards managers but certainly had success elsewhere -- Branch Rickey, Miller Huggins, Joe Torre, for starters. Ducky Medwick was another guy my father always talked about. A doubles machine. But another of the real nasty characters who hated that nickname. Looking over this group, the Cardinals have had their fair share of guys who were very unpleasant -- in addition to the already-mentioned Carpenter and Medwick, I think we could definitely put Hornsby and Frisch and Gibson and Tudor on there. And we never even got around to the Mad Hungarian Al Hrabosky, although I think his was more of an act. Nice to see Whitey Kurowski's name on there. Very solid hot corner guy. Overall the Cardinals would be strong contenders for most disliked team...along with any club that Cobb was on of course (grin)………..Dizzy Dean was a needler and agitator too...Slaughter was as bad as Dixie Walker in jeering Jackie Robinson and other blacks... |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 16:24:16 GMT -5
Pipp evokes another question, that we have discussed on another thread....if you were the Cardinals having to win a one-game playoff game, and you had Dizzy Dean and Bob Gibson ready and in their prime...who would you start in that critical playoff game?
I will say there is not a bad choice here...I would probably go with Gibson because he pitched angry...Diz was so good that he would be funnin' out there...
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 12, 2018 16:37:07 GMT -5
Pipp evokes another question, that we have discussed on another thread....if you were the Cardinals having to win a one-game playoff game, and you had Dizzy Dean and Bob Gibson ready and in their prime...who would you start in that critical playoff game? I will say there is not a bad choice here...I would probably go with Gibson because he pitched angry...Diz was so good that he would be funnin' out there... Utah, I agree it is close to a coin flip for that one game. I would probably lean toward Gibson as well, and somewhat for the same reason. You wouldn't have to worry about him having his game face. I wish I could have seen Dean pitch. One of the saddest ever All Star game injuries, really sidetracked his career. I think the most fun pitcher I personally ever saw was Mark Fidrych. Obviously it only lasted a year, but everybody was enjoying it. Even when he beat the Yanks in that nationally-televised game that really brought him to public attention, I couldn't get too upset. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 12, 2018 16:45:37 GMT -5
Ol' Diz on the baseball broadcasts...when things got slow or uninteresting, he would break into singing "The Cannonball Express"...I remember after he had recently passed, and the John Denver song about West Virginia was played in the stadium...one of the announcers remarked how Dizzy would have loved that song...…Dizzy was as bright as a meteor in the 30's and despite the early injury, he has to be there...just like Gooden has to be with the Mets...Dean was every bit as brilliant... Very minor correction, Utah. I believe the song was "The Wabash Cannonball." But we're thinking about the same song. Diz also used "slud" as the past tense for "slide." A guy could learn a lot from Dizzy Dean. Most of it wrong!! Love the Gooden comparison, although Doc lasted a bit longer. He was breath-taking his first several years. Don't know that I've seen anyone more brilliant over a short period. Not necessarily talking stats, just the impression he made when you watched him pitch. Koufax in his peak seasons is also often compared to Diz as a deserving short-career HOFer. We can reminisce about him when we get to the Dodgers. |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 16:50:58 GMT -5
Pipp evokes another question, that we have discussed on another thread....if you were the Cardinals having to win a one-game playoff game, and you had Dizzy Dean and Bob Gibson ready and in their prime...who would you start in that critical playoff game? I will say there is not a bad choice here...I would probably go with Gibson because he pitched angry...Diz was so good that he would be funnin' out there... Utah, I agree it is close to a coin flip for that one game. I would probably lean toward Gibson as well, and somewhat for the same reason. You wouldn't have to worry about him having his game face. I wish I could have seen Dean pitch. One of the saddest ever All Star game injuries, really sidetracked his career. I think the most fun pitcher I personally ever saw was Mark Fidrych. Obviously it only lasted a year, but everybody was enjoying it. Even when he beat the Yanks in that nationally-televised game that really brought him to public attention, I couldn't get too upset. Dizzy Dean had a beautiful pitching motion...his delivery was poetry in motion....fluid and easy....it seemed easy for him...I can't think of another RH with a better delivery... I know you have seen the LH that I think had a pretty delivery...Mark Langston....maybe it was just me, but I thought it was beautiful.. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 12, 2018 17:29:48 GMT -5
Dizzy Dean had a beautiful pitching motion...his delivery was poetry in motion....fluid and easy....it seemed easy for him...I can't think of another RH with a better delivery... I know you have seen the LH that I think had a pretty delivery...Mark Langston....maybe it was just me, but I thought it was beautiful.. Langston did have a beautiful, loose delivery. Good recall. From the RH side, I always thought Jim Palmer was a work of art. Definitive of fluid for me. Robin Roberts was also very fluid once he finished his 47 mannerisms between pitches. For that matter Gooden and Nolan Ryan had great mechanics. If you ever saw old films of Walter Johnson -- incredible. His arms seemed to come down below his knees when he stood straight, and then his effortless-looking sidearm delivery. The first time I saw it I couldn't believe it. A guy who was throwing somewhere around 100 MPH coming from the side and as nonchalantly as if he were skimming stones across a lake. |
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Post by desousa on Sept 12, 2018 17:50:55 GMT -5
Sparking a conversation between pipps and Utah has made my week. Wow, you guys are like Baseball Reference and Baseball Encyclopedia talking to each other. Thanks so much.
A couple of things. I originally had Jim Bottomley starting in front of Johnny Mize, but was a last minute changed my mind. Bottomley played a long time and was great. Maybe it was Mize's contribution to some Yankees seasons that influenced me, but maybe it was the fact he once hit 50 home runs in a season and struck out only 42 times. In this day and age, that boggles my mind. I don't think you can go wrong with either one.
I also originally had Jim Edmonds starting ahead of Lou Brock. Edmonds was a pretty good hitter, who also one of the best CF
ever. But in the end, I like the speed that Brock brought to the team.
I don't know if it's true, but maybe you guys remember that some members (mainly Walker and Slaughter) of the Cards teams that was play against the Dodgers in Jackie Robinsons first game, wanted to strike but Stan Musial said no.
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Post by desousa on Sept 12, 2018 17:58:43 GMT -5
One more thing. I feel fortunate to be old enough to listen to Dizzy Dean announce a baseball game. English teachers hated him, but we kids loved him.
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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 17:58:59 GMT -5
Dizzy Dean had a beautiful pitching motion...his delivery was poetry in motion....fluid and easy....it seemed easy for him...I can't think of another RH with a better delivery... I know you have seen the LH that I think had a pretty delivery...Mark Langston....maybe it was just me, but I thought it was beautiful.. Langston did have a beautiful, loose delivery. Good recall. From the RH side, I always thought Jim Palmer was a work of art. Definitive of fluid for me. Robin Roberts was also very fluid once he finished his 47 mannerisms between pitches. For that matter Gooden and Nolan Ryan had great mechanics. If you ever saw old films of Walter Johnson -- incredible. His arms seemed to come down below his knees when he stood straight, and then his effortless-looking sidearm delivery. The first time I saw it I couldn't believe it. A guy who was throwing somewhere around 100 MPH coming from the side and as nonchalantly as if he were skimming stones across a lake. you are right on in all those pitchers...all very good to watch...Palmer with that classic overhand motion puts him right up there with anybody..and the others you mentioned as well....Did you get to see the last year perhaps of Ewell Blackwell?....shades of Walter Johnson, except it wasn't coming as easily for Ewell as it did for Walter...Dee and I replaced the blinds in a couple windows today, and the Home Depot guy that cut them to size did not put the valence of the second blind back in the box after cutting...while I was running back there I was thinking about Dean's easy motion and tried to think of someone good, but it looked like he was working "sooo" hard....I thought of Tom Seaver...he was good, but there was no question he was laboring... |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 18:11:14 GMT -5
Sparking a conversation between pipps and Utah has made my week. Wow, you guys are like Baseball Reference and Baseball Encyclopedia talking to each other. Thanks so much. A couple of things. I originally had Jim Bottomley starting in front of Johnny Mize, but was a last minute change. Bottomley played a long time and was great. Maybe it was Mize's contribution to some Yankees seasons that influenced me, but maybe it was the fact he once hit 50 home runs in a season and struck out only 42 times. In this day and age, that boggles my mind. I don't think you can go wrong with either one. I also originally had Jim Edmonds starting ahead of Lou Brock. Edmonds was a pretty good hitter, who also one of the best CF ever. But in the end, I like the speed that Brock brought to the team. I don't know if it's true, but maybe you guys remember that some members (mainly Walker and Slaughter) of the Cards teams that was play against the Dodgers in Jackie Robinsons first game, wanted to strike but Stan Musial said no. I would also put it close between Mize and Bottomley, but would probably agree with you on Mize....Johnny was also amazingly agile around first base, but Jim was no slouch.... I heard maybe too much about the way some of the rednecks treated the first black players....shameful....I hadn't heard that story that involved Musial...that Musial was a classy guy, and might have done so, is believable....Musial was still pretty young in '47 so I don't know if he would have had the stature to take that stand...couple that with his quiet nature and I don't know...…….I'll tell you what, though...if you wanted to make an all-time list of "good guys"...we have talked today about two that I think belong there....Musial and Walter Johnson.. |
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Post by desousa on Sept 12, 2018 18:14:46 GMT -5
Langston did have a beautiful, loose delivery. Good recall. From the RH side, I always thought Jim Palmer was a work of art. Definitive of fluid for me. Robin Roberts was also very fluid once he finished his 47 mannerisms between pitches. For that matter Gooden and Nolan Ryan had great mechanics. If you ever saw old films of Walter Johnson -- incredible. His arms seemed to come down below his knees when he stood straight, and then his effortless-looking sidearm delivery. The first time I saw it I couldn't believe it. A guy who was throwing somewhere around 100 MPH coming from the side and as nonchalantly as if he were skimming stones across a lake. you are right on in all those pitchers...all very good to watch...Palmer with that classic overhand motion puts him right up there with anybody..and the others you mentioned as well....Did you get to see the last year perhaps of Ewell Blackwell?....shades of Walter Johnson, except it wasn't coming as easily for Ewell as it did for Walter...Dee and I replaced the blinds in a couple windows today, and the Home Depot guy that cut them to size did not put the valence of the second blind back in the box after cutting...while I was running back there I was thinking about Dean's easy motion and tried to think of someone good, but it looked like he was working "sooo" hard....I thought of Tom Seaver...he was good, but there was no question he was laboring... One unbelievable stat about Jim Palmer is that he never gave up a grand slam. |
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Post by desousa on Sept 12, 2018 18:20:07 GMT -5
Sparking a conversation between pipps and Utah has made my week. Wow, you guys are like Baseball Reference and Baseball Encyclopedia talking to each other. Thanks so much. A couple of things. I originally had Jim Bottomley starting in front of Johnny Mize, but was a last minute change. Bottomley played a long time and was great. Maybe it was Mize's contribution to some Yankees seasons that influenced me, but maybe it was the fact he once hit 50 home runs in a season and struck out only 42 times. In this day and age, that boggles my mind. I don't think you can go wrong with either one. I also originally had Jim Edmonds starting ahead of Lou Brock. Edmonds was a pretty good hitter, who also one of the best CF ever. But in the end, I like the speed that Brock brought to the team. I don't know if it's true, but maybe you guys remember that some members (mainly Walker and Slaughter) of the Cards teams that was play against the Dodgers in Jackie Robinsons first game, wanted to strike but Stan Musial said no. I would also put it close between Mize and Bottomley, but would probably agree with you on Mize....Johnny was also amazingly agile around first base, but Jim was no slouch.... I heard maybe too much about the way some of the rednecks treated the first black players....shameful....I hadn't heard that story that involved Musial...that Musial was a classy guy, and might have done so, is believable....Musial was still pretty young in '47 so I don't know if he would have had the stature to take that stand...couple that with his quiet nature and I don't know...…….I'll tell you what, though...if you wanted to make an all-time list of "good guys"...we have talked today about two that I think belong there....Musial and Walter Johnson.. I have a friend who's father owned a hotel in DC that Musial stayed in a lot. He always said Musial was one of the classiest people he'd ever met. |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 18:27:04 GMT -5
I would also put it close between Mize and Bottomley, but would probably agree with you on Mize....Johnny was also amazingly agile around first base, but Jim was no slouch.... I heard maybe too much about the way some of the rednecks treated the first black players....shameful....I hadn't heard that story that involved Musial...that Musial was a classy guy, and might have done so, is believable....Musial was still pretty young in '47 so I don't know if he would have had the stature to take that stand...couple that with his quiet nature and I don't know...…….I'll tell you what, though...if you wanted to make an all-time list of "good guys"...we have talked today about two that I think belong there....Musial and Walter Johnson.. I have a friend who's father owned a hotel in DC that Musial stayed in a lot. He always said Musial was one of the classiest people he'd ever met. He said Robert Mitchum stayed there too and the hallway on his floor smelled like pot. He would also have a girlfriend staying on a different floor than the one he and his wife. I don't remember reading this writer myself, but I remember some lunch-room baseball talk about something he wrote....and it probably has been heard by others here, and I may butcher it....so I apologize for that, but here goes....the writer said something like "when I first heard how nice Musial is, I thought "nobody is that nice", but after I got to know him I found him even nicer than I had been told"...…... |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 12, 2018 18:30:31 GMT -5
you are right on in all those pitchers...all very good to watch...Palmer with that classic overhand motion puts him right up there with anybody..and the others you mentioned as well....Did you get to see the last year perhaps of Ewell Blackwell?....shades of Walter Johnson, except it wasn't coming as easily for Ewell as it did for Walter...Dee and I replaced the blinds in a couple windows today, and the Home Depot guy that cut them to size did not put the valence of the second blind back in the box after cutting...while I was running back there I was thinking about Dean's easy motion and tried to think of someone good, but it looked like he was working "sooo" hard....I thought of Tom Seaver...he was good, but there was no question he was laboring... Utah, I was just a bit late to the party for Ewell "The Whip" Blackwell, but I have seen films of him and concur in your judgment. Another guy I loved to watch pitch was Dan Quisenberry, scraping those knuckles on the mound. A good man who died way too young but took it with incredible good grace. Do you remember a Washington Senators submariner named Dick Hyde? One of the early relief pitchers from my baseball card days. Some of the oldest pitchers I remember toward the ends of their careers who you would have seen in their primes were Early Wynn and Don Newcombe (still living BTW) and Mel Parnell. I just missed seeing Bob Feller and Hal Newhouser (as well as non-pitchers like Phil Rizzuto and Ralph Kiner and Jackie Robinson.) I think I actually would have seen those guys, but was not quite old enough to absorb it. Others like Warren Spahn and Ted Williams and Stan Musial were old when I came around, but they were still very good, so I feel like I saw them give prime-time performances. They are very vivid to me. Concur on Seaver. Man, was he great to watch. Getting that knee dirty as he gave maximum effort to each pitch. Definitely, as you say, laboring. Today they wouldn't allow him to go past the sixth inning. One of the best of all time, no question. I was reading a few days ago about Denny McLain throwing 229 pitches in a game, I think in the year he won 31. Yeah, I know McLain was a jerk, but for a few years he was the real deal. That famous 16 inning game when Juan Marichal outdueled Warren Spahn 1-0 -- both went all the way -- Spahnie was 41 years old. They each threw well over 200 pitches and didn't miss a start. In fact Marichal pitched another 12-13 seasons. I do miss that aspect of the game. I don't think it's being a grouchy old man to say that a classic like that is a lot more entertaining than watching a parade of six anonymous relief pitchers who will be out of the game in a few years throwing 100 MPH with each working one inning. |
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