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Post by desousa on Sept 24, 2018 13:00:58 GMT -5
Agreed on Davis. I’m not known for my love of Pete Rose. Rose is my definition of a man with talent but an ego that superceded the talent. He ran into outs all the time by over-estimating his speed and trying to be the hero. His stolen base efficiency is off the charts horrible for someone with the number of attempts he had. That said, he belongs on the bench for this team, and could be a true super-utility player. He was also below average in the field. That was why he played so many different positions, not because of his “versatility”. The reason for all this moaning and groaning is that there is no way he plays ahead of Eric Davis... More to come on this team later... I can't stand Rose either, but hard to ignore his career. Davis is an interesting player who seemed to have nagging injuries his whole career. He never had 600 PA's and never hit .300 until he played with Baltimore. He was good, but I'd take any of the other OF's over him. |
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Post by inger on Sept 24, 2018 16:03:20 GMT -5
I think that’s one of the interesting aspects of a discussion of this nature. If we take a healthy Eric Davis, a rare animal indeed, and at his peak (far too short), on his best day...he’s one of the most amazing 5-tool talents ever to play the game.
Rose’s best years were spent with the Reds, and he had a an extremely long prime. It was not defined whether we are building s team for the long run, a single season, or simply one post season run. it was stated that the players needed at least 5 years with a team to be named to the all-time roster.
I can certainly see a legit argument for Pete Rose, dependent upon how you’re thinking when you construct your team...
Eric Davis = 5 tools
Pete Rose = “A tool”... (:
Sorry I STILL haven’t gotten around to really studying this roster. I need to settle down for an evening or two...
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 26, 2018 12:02:04 GMT -5
Cincinnati Reds All Time Team Catcher: Johnny Bench, Ernie Lombardi. AAA: Bubbles Hargrave, Ed Bailey First: Ted Kluszewski, Joey Votto. AAA: Frank McCormack, Sean Casey Second: Joe Morgan, Brandon Phillips. AAA: Johnny Temple, Bid McPhee Third: Tony Perez, Heinie Groh. AAA: Chris Sabo, Short: Barry Larkin, Dave Concepcion. AAA: Leo Cardenas OF: Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, Edd Roush, George Foster, Vada Pinson. AAA: Eric Davis, Cy Seymour, Bug Holliday, Ken Griffey SR. Starters: Jim Maloney, Dolf Luque, Jose Rijo, Bucky Walters, Johnny Cueto. AAA: Bob Ewing, Noodles Hahn, Fred Toney, Mario Soto, Johnny Vander Meer Bullpen: Aroldis Chapman (closer), Clay Carroll, Norm Charlton, John Franco, Joe Beggs. AAA: Pedro Bourbon When I first thought I doing the Reds, I assumed they didn't have much pitching, but would have a hell of a lineup. When I was done, I was right about the pitching, but I think the line up is okay, not great. Most positions were easy, but not the OF. Robinson and Rose were no brainers. I put Roush in CF, but I remember Eric Davis being pretty good out there. George Foster was a pretty good hitter for a few years and Vada Pinson was always one of my favorite players from early childhood. I think I felt sorry for him because he hit under a hundred in the 61 series. I've got some good OF's in AAA. The Reds pitching would probably have them ranked in the bottom third of the original 16. No real ace and after Chapman in the bullpen, you have good relievers, but not much depth. Have at it guys. I was heavily medicated when I did my research, so I'm not sure if all the players I named were on the Reds. Another great job, Desousa. It is interesting that offensively, while as you say this is a really good team, it would not be in the upper echelon of All Time squads. We were probably both overly influenced by memories of The Big Red Machine, which truly was an outstanding collection of players. One place I might take issue with a choice -- and as with Inger and the White Sox, here we are back at first base. Let me say up front I was always a fan of Big Klu, with his ripped shirt prominently displaying his considerable biceps. He had amazing bat control -- he had four years with 35 or more HRs, and in each of them he struck out fewer times than he homered. Even in the 1950s, that was not a pedestrian achievement. Only seven times in baseball history has a player hit 40 or more HRs and had fewer strikeouts -- three of those times were Ted Kluszewski. For his career, he walked 492 times and struck out 365 times. However --- in Joey Votto we have maybe the most underappreciated elite offensive player ever. Votto has a career OBP of .427. This is 12th all time in baseball history, ninth if you limit it to players from the 20th century onward. For players whose careers began after World War II, it is second only to Barry Bonds. That is mind boggling to me. Klu was no slouch, with a career OBP of .352, but that is still a pretty wide gap. For adjusted OPS+, Votto stands at 155 to Klu's 123. To put that into some context, Votto is 23rd in baseball history in this category. There are three players he is tied with -- Hank Aaron, Joe DiMaggio and Mel Ott. I would call that pretty fast company. Neither of these guys are Gold Glovers defensively, although I think Votto is a shade more nimble, not a difficult accomplishment in this case. Klu did have good hands and was an outstanding tight end at the University of Indiana, leading that team to a Big Ten title in 1945. I think because Votto is somewhat anonymous on the national level, playing for his share of bad teams, he doesn't get the publicity he probably deserves. Anyway, that is some of my reasoning there. More in a bit. But again, thank you for putting this team together. You have earned a big wet kiss from Marge Schott. (Sorry about that imagery, couldn't resist.) |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 26, 2018 12:30:08 GMT -5
Cincinnati Reds All Time Team Catcher: Johnny Bench, Ernie Lombardi. AAA: Bubbles Hargrave, Ed Bailey First: Ted Kluszewski, Joey Votto. AAA: Frank McCormack, Sean Casey Second: Joe Morgan, Brandon Phillips. AAA: Johnny Temple, Bid McPhee Third: Tony Perez, Heinie Groh. AAA: Chris Sabo, Short: Barry Larkin, Dave Concepcion. AAA: Leo Cardenas OF: Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, Edd Roush, George Foster, Vada Pinson. AAA: Eric Davis, Cy Seymour, Bug Holliday, Ken Griffey SR. Starters: Jim Maloney, Dolf Luque, Jose Rijo, Bucky Walters, Johnny Cueto. AAA: Bob Ewing, Noodles Hahn, Fred Toney, Mario Soto, Johnny Vander Meer Bullpen: Aroldis Chapman (closer), Clay Carroll, Norm Charlton, John Franco, Joe Beggs. AAA: Pedro Bourbon When I first thought I doing the Reds, I assumed they didn't have much pitching, but would have a hell of a lineup. When I was done, I was right about the pitching, but I think the line up is okay, not great. Most positions were easy, but not the OF. Robinson and Rose were no brainers. I put Roush in CF, but I remember Eric Davis being pretty good out there. George Foster was a pretty good hitter for a few years and Vada Pinson was always one of my favorite players from early childhood. I think I felt sorry for him because he hit under a hundred in the 61 series. I've got some good OF's in AAA. The Reds pitching would probably have them ranked in the bottom third of the original 16. No real ace and after Chapman in the bullpen, you have good relievers, but not much depth. Have at it guys. I was heavily medicated when I did my research, so I'm not sure if all the players I named were on the Reds. I also wanted to make a few comments on the pitching. Glad to see Jim Maloney on there. He was an outstanding pitcher who was unfortunately washed up by his late twenties. Had he been able to pitch reasonably effectively into his early to mid-thirties, he would have pitched for the aforementioned Big Red Machine teams and would have amassed some serious victory totals and likely have been put in the HOF. The Reds of the 60s and 70s seemed to develop really top-notch pitchers, like Maloney, whose careers were cut very short by injuries. I know this happens a lot, but the Reds seemed to be particularly prone to it at that time. Pitchers like Don Gullett (who I might have put on this staff anyway), Wayne Simpson, Gary Nolan, Jim O'Toole. Ability out the wazoo. Nolan especially was a fine pitcher. But instead they seemed more often than not winding up with the likes of Jack Billingham and Freddy Norman picking up the slack. In the early 60s they had Joey Jay give them back to back 20 game seasons, but he flamed out early as well. I have some recollection from my baseball cards that Jay was the first Little Leaguer to ever pitch in the majors. Concur on Vada Pinson. Heck of a player for a long time. Quiet and unassuming. Overshadowed by his OF mate Frank Robinson, with whom he was friends from childhood growing up in the same Oakland neighborhood (although both originated elsewhere.) And it's always good to see a mention of Leo Cardenas, a spider-like gangly SS with a great arm and great range. Random baseball card Reds just to throw some names out there -- Pete Whisenant, Brooks Lawrence, Bob Thurman, Cliff Cook, Eddie Kasko, Wally Post, Chico Ruiz, Gordy Coleman, Gene Freese, Elio Chacon, Jerry Lynch, Hal Jeffcoat, Tom Acker, Jim Brosnan, Don Pavletich. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 26, 2018 13:00:29 GMT -5
Houston Astros Catcher: Craig Biggio, Brad Ausmus, Alan Ashby First: Jeff Bagwell, Lance Berkman, Bob Watson, Glenn Davis Second: Jose Altuve, Joe Morgan, Bill Doran Third: Alex Bregman, Morgan Ensberg, Ken Caminiti SS: Carlos Correa, Dickie Thon LF: Jose Cruz, Luis Gonzalez, Carlos Lee CF: Cesar Cedeno, Jim Wynn RF: George Springer, Hunter Pence, Derek Bell, Rusty Staub, Terry Puhl Starters: Nolan Ryan, J.R. Richard, Roy Oswalt, Larry Dierker, Mike Scott, Joe Niekro Bullpen: Billy Wagner, Dave Smith, Brad Lidge, Shane Reynolds, Don Wilson, Ken Forsch Astros were a bit weak offensively at catcher, so Biggio gets the nod, though he played more second base and outfield. Dickie Thon was as good a player as anyone, until he was hit in the face with a fastball from Mike Torrez. Cedeno and Cruz were underrated players in my estimation - both complete ball players. Some of the franchize's best position players for the Astros are on their current roster: Correa, Altuve, Springer, Bregman. One thing is for sure: this is a team that can pitch, play defense, and hit. Lots of diversity in this pitching staff, too. Many different looks during the course of a seven-game series. I really like this team. Hi Rizz -- I agree this is a surprisingly good squad, especially considering the other teams we have been looking at have anywhere from a 60 to 140 year head start. Hard to visualize Joe Morgan being behind almost anyone, but of course you have to take his Cincinnati years to get there. For a team that doesn't have a warehouse-full of championship trophies, that really is a nice team. I also agree that Cedeno and Cruz were outstanding players. Jeez, when Cedeno came up he was touted pretty much the way Junior Griffey was in a later era. Man he could track down the ball. In the early part of his career, he looked like he was going to be one of the greatest CFers of all time. He did in fact wind up with a fine career, but, like Fred Lynn, if you went by what you saw the first few seasons, it was something to behold. Jose Cruz, while he did not have the electrifying talent of Cedeno, was nevertheless a solid player for many years. Playing in the Astrodome really held down his numbers. I remember when the Houston Colt .45s came into the league in 1962. All the hoopla surrounding the dreadful Mets team kept them under the radar. In those pre-Astrodome days, I remember players like Turk Farrell, Norm Larker, Bob Lillis, Bob Bruce, Jim Umbricht, Walter Bond, Hal Woodeschick, Al Spangler and Don Nottebart. I can remember listening on the radio to the first game ever played in the Astrodome, a pre-season game against the Yankees, and Mickey Mantle hitting the first home run ever in that stadium. Even a declining Mick in an impossible home run park still had to make his mark. I'll have more to say later as I digest the team, but thanks for putting it together. BTW, I see Inger said Utah had fled the coop. Did I miss something? |
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Post by inger on Sept 26, 2018 15:36:03 GMT -5
Yes, Utah left us a dear John note on his member profile saying that he had resigned from the forum.
He and Rizzuto has some back and forths, and that was his way I suppose of dealing with it. As you know, I met Utah in person, and of that I have no regrets.
I know he temporarily left Pinstripes Plus st one point when he and I had some back and forth about PEDs in which I probably phrased my comment in a manner that made him take them more personally than I intended. This is not his first departure.
Will he return? Anyone’s guess. Any time you lose the attention of someone who can comment on baseball history from as far back as he did, it’s a bit sad.
On the other hand. We still have Rizzuto, and personally I don’t think he’s exactly chopped liver either. One man can never be bigger than the team. I wish Utah peace and contentment with his decision and whatever he chooses to do.
For Rizzuto, I celebrate that he didn’t react in the same manner and withdraw. He’s a fine poster who simply won’t take personal opinion as fact and rightfully asks for sources or challenges statements in certain circumstances. He always has, and has treated all of us equally in that regard...
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Post by inger on Sept 26, 2018 15:40:14 GMT -5
Jim Umbricht was the first “In Memoriam” baseball card with a black banner on it that I ever found when munching on that brittle bubblegum that was included more as an afterthought than a value in the Topps packages...(I would have gladly taken another card in it’s place. In fact the texture might have been a bit more tolerable than the gum had I chosen to chew on my “doubles”)...
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Post by inger on Sept 26, 2018 15:47:44 GMT -5
With 550 stolen bases and 199 HR, I would have to say that Cedeno barely missed being on many exclusive lists of players with 500+ SN and 200+ HR. His stolen base efficiency was excellent and combined with 20+ HR power in the Astrodome as a budding young player put him within reach of Eric Davis-like performance. Like Davis, he was short-circuited and never quite got to experience playing at his best for the long term. So horribly under-rated overall because his peak years were short and somewhat disguised by the cavernous ball yard he played in...
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 26, 2018 17:26:50 GMT -5
Jim Umbricht was the first “In Memoriam” baseball card with a black banner on it that I ever found when munching on that brittle bubblegum that was included more as an afterthought than a value in the Topps packages...(I would have gladly taken another card in it’s place. In fact the texture might have been a bit more tolerable than the gum had I chosen to chew on my “doubles”)... I remember that as well. Jim Umbricht died from cancer just a few months after his last appearance in a big league game. I remember his ashes were spread over the ground where the Astrodome was being constructed. Walt Bond, who I also mentioned right next to Umbricht, also died, in his case from leukemia, not long after his final major league game. I remember thinking at the time that the Astros were star-crossed -- they had a very young pitcher named Jay Dahl who also died in that same general timeframe -- he was the starting pitcher for a Houston team that fielded the only all-rookie starting lineup in major league history sometime in the mid-60s -- Joe Morgan was part of that group, I think Rusty Staub too. I think of some sad cases of young players who died while still active -- Danny Thompson, the Twins SS, died of leukemia just a few months after playing his last game. Maybe you remember a promising Cubs second baseman named Kenny Hubbs -- I think he may have been rookie of the year, too lazy to look it up -- died in an off-season plane crash. I recall getting Ken Hubbs' autograph while standing outside of Connie Mack Stadium after a game -- I exchanged a few words with him, he seemed like a friendly guy -- I never forgot him. I think he also got one of those In Memoriam cards. Bob Moose, Mike Miley, Nick Adenhart, Lyman Bostock, Don Wilson, Corey Lidle, Tim Crews, of course our own Thurman Munson -- many more who died while still active players. The Angels relief pitcher who gave up the big HR in the ALCS to Dave Henderson in 1986 -- I couldn't think of his name, was it Donny Moore? -- yeah, that's right, committed suicide a few years later. I was unaware of Utah's departure, thanks for clarifying. I do hope he returns, if only because if he doesn't, that makes me the oldest guy on here, and that is never a comfortable feeling. Hey Utah, if you're reading this, we really want you back. Your insights are invaluable and irreplaceable. An online baseball site is not a hill to die on. Just slide back on as if nothing happened. This is definitely a place where we can agree to disagree. As the man said, there's no crying in baseball. |
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Post by inger on Sept 26, 2018 23:57:44 GMT -5
I also got the Ken Hubbs in memoriam card. Cool that you got to meet him. Quite sad that he was rookie of the year and then...poof...gone...I understand he was great with the glove in his rookie season. Perhaps some history died with him that day...He set a then record that season of 1962 with 413 consecutive chances at 2B without an error, and won the gold glove...How sad that, like our Yankees Munson, Hubbs was flying a plane with only a few hours of experience behind him and crashed into a lake near Provo. I understand he had a terrific personality. One story I read was of an old lady that wanted to go to her first Cubs game just so she could get Hubbs' autograph. She arrived too late and was sitting in the stands upset. Hubbs was told about her, jumped the railing and went into the stands to sign, and sat and talked with her that day. He knew he'd get hit with a $100 fine, but he wasn't about to let a fan down...
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Post by inger on Sept 28, 2018 22:44:38 GMT -5
Cincinnati Reds All Time Team Catcher: Johnny Bench, Ernie Lombardi. AAA: Bubbles Hargrave, Ed Bailey First: Ted Kluszewski, Joey Votto. AAA: Frank McCormack, Sean Casey Second: Joe Morgan, Brandon Phillips. AAA: Johnny Temple, Bid McPhee Third: Tony Perez, Heinie Groh. AAA: Chris Sabo, Short: Barry Larkin, Dave Concepcion. AAA: Leo Cardenas OF: Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, Edd Roush, George Foster, Vada Pinson. AAA: Eric Davis, Cy Seymour, Bug Holliday, Ken Griffey SR. Starters: Jim Maloney, Dolf Luque, Jose Rijo, Bucky Walters, Johnny Cueto. AAA: Bob Ewing, Noodles Hahn, Fred Toney, Mario Soto, Johnny Vander Meer Bullpen: Aroldis Chapman (closer), Clay Carroll, Norm Charlton, John Franco, Joe Beggs. AAA: Pedro Bourbon When I first thought I doing the Reds, I assumed they didn't have much pitching, but would have a hell of a lineup. When I was done, I was right about the pitching, but I think the line up is okay, not great. Most positions were easy, but not the OF. Robinson and Rose were no brainers. I put Roush in CF, but I remember Eric Davis being pretty good out there. George Foster was a pretty good hitter for a few years and Vada Pinson was always one of my favorite players from early childhood. I think I felt sorry for him because he hit under a hundred in the 61 series. I've got some good OF's in AAA. The Reds pitching would probably have them ranked in the bottom third of the original 16. No real ace and after Chapman in the bullpen, you have good relievers, but not much depth. Have at it guys. I was heavily medicated when I did my research, so I'm not sure if all the players I named were on the Reds. Sorry for the long absence from strong participation in this thread. Anyway, after reviewing, I must say that I will support Pipps in taking Votto over Kluszewski at first base, but since it was Pipp's idea to begin with, I feel he should be the one to tell him, and I might tell him I voted against the change...I'm such a puss... Since third base is so weak, I might offer that although Rose played only a scant bit at third for the Reds, perhaps that will get him some at bats as a back up for Tony Perez, who was really a first baseman in my thinking since he headed that way for most of his career... The only other issue I have is Brandon Phillips. While his old time stats look pretty good, his OPS + is lackluster and although he was awarded with two gold gloves I never felt he was a good second basemen. His low OPS leaves me cold...I would suggest we give him a ticket to AAA and promote Bid McPhee. Any fellow who hit 8 HR in a season in 1886 gets my attention, as that lead the league in those old dead ball days...He also hit 5 a couple of times and 6 once, which I would have to say is near equivalent to 20 today...i'm not too impressed with his SB totals overall because of the weird rules of the era, but 95 in 1887 (not league leading) is impressive following a league leading HR year and he reached the fifties and sixties a time or two as well...I think it's safe to say he was fast...So, I'd personally take McPhee as my backup 2B. It's hard to unseat Joe Morgan, so he's going to ride a lot of pine... I like Mario Soto a lot, even though he had a short prime. I used to pitch him in my old Strat-O-Matic league, and remember taking him off the scrap pile at the end of the draft one season and he was quite a strong #3 or 4 for me that year...So that's something, right? But seriously, I'd gladly kick Cueto to the curb for Soto... Call me a fool if you wish, but I need Rob Dibble in that bullpen, short prime or not. My computer just locked up when I tried to open up B-R to do a comparison, so I'm going to have to say for now that Joe Beggs the question of why is he here? I'll look at him later, but I'm assuming you've made quite a find of a player I'm not aware of...but he'd be on my bubble to replace with Dibble until I look further into this...UPDATE...Got into B-R...NICE FIND...I can't tell this man he's out of a job, wartime hero, pre-war and post war zero or not. He was darned good...I think I'd send Charlton packing, or maybe Clay Carroll in lieu of Dibble...But let's not quibble over Dibble, okay??? |
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