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Post by desousa on Sept 21, 2018 5:07:59 GMT -5
Okay. I committed that blasphemic act with the following thoughts in mind. I was doubting myself, but now I’m becoming a bit more stubborn about it. While Thomas had a lusty 156+ OPS which is indeed other-worldly, I took into consideration that he DH’d in over 1300 games, while playing IB in under 1000 games. There were several reason for that, not the least of which was that he was not a good fielder. At all. He was not athletic, and ran the bases like Greg Luzinski and Adam Dunn made a baby together and sent him to train to run bases with Jorge Possda and Bengie Molina. That means that his time to first base was about 45 seconds when he ran in the proper direction. Taking that into mind and considering that though we made no arrangements for nor agin the DH, I figured that Frank would get a ton of AB, including playing some first base when our young genius manager felt that Abreu needed rest, usually the day after he hits two home runs. As for Abreu, his OPS + of 139 ain’t exactly Alpo, and he can st least see his toes when he’s looking down, which means he can pick the ball out of the dirt next to them... All of that said, no disrespect meant for Fat Frank... er, I mean, Mr. Thomas, and Abreu is still active and piling on stats, so the book is not closed. I confess to sometimes being freakishly anal about defense and it’s importance, as well as being concerned about things like baserunning speed that is meaningless to some. But that’s all a part of what’s so great about this excercise. You can look at my roster, make the adjustments you think would make it better. Then we could run the two rosters through a computer simulation 100 seasons. Then, we might have a clue who did the best job. C’mon... Nobody wants to fight harder over Chet Lemon? I was embarrassed to post him to be honest, but with all the defensive specialists the Dox have employed out there. And with Lemon being an under rated defender that could at least hit as well as a 2018 Yankee with runners in scoring position... well... there he is... Inger, I've been meaning to get back to you about Chet Lemon. When I saw his name in CF and then looked at the backups, I thought that it made sense. Lemon was no lemon in the OF. I agree that he was underrated defender and not a bad hitter. Batted over .300 three times and .273 lifetime. Also, seeing his name reminded me of the old Senator's OF Jim Lemon. Had a few of his cards. I remember him looking old. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 21, 2018 9:47:23 GMT -5
Inger, I've been meaning to get back to you about Chet Lemon. When I saw his name in CF and then looked at the backups, I thought that it made sense. Lemon was no lemon in the OF. I agree that he was underrated defender and not a bad hitter. Batted over .300 three times and .273 lifetime. Also, seeing his name reminded me of the old Senator's OF Jim Lemon. Had a few of his cards. I remember him looking old. I think Chet Lemon deserves the nod as much as anyone else. The Sox have had a lot of great defensive CFers, many of which we have already gone over -- Jim Landis maybe at the top of that list -- but other good ones have included Johnny Mostil, who Inger I think rightly included as a backup -- I note that he actually played more games in CF than any other White Sox -- and the guy he replaced there, Black Sox participant Happy Felsch. Felsch is arguably the best of the bunch, but his career was short, and well, with Shoeless Joe already roaming the pasture, maybe we don't want two of those guys side by side if you catch my drift. Lance Johnson could go get them too, and how about that Aaron Rowand? One of the all-time wall crashers. Desousa, as to your mention of Jim Lemon. He did look old and weather-beaten, like a player from the early 1900s. He was 28 before he had his first full season, and was only 33 for his last full season. For about five years in there, he and Roy Sievers (who also looked old) were a good power combination for the Senators. One of my early baseball memories was Jim Lemon hitting three home runs in a game off of Whitey Ford. I doubt that happened often -- if ever again -- to Whitey. Buried in one of my baseball books was an assessment that Jim Lemon was the worst defensive outfielder to ever have a long career. |
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Post by inger on Sept 21, 2018 10:03:19 GMT -5
One other thing that Lemon reminded me of was those ugly White Sox short pants, shirt-tail out uniforms they wore one season...Sliding on the base paths in shorts is not a good idea...
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Post by desousa on Sept 21, 2018 10:59:18 GMT -5
One other thing that Lemon reminded me of was those ugly White Sox short pants, shirt-tail out uniforms they wore one season...Sliding on the base paths in shorts is not a good idea... God awful. Was it a Bill Veeck idea gone terribly wrong? |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 21, 2018 12:15:03 GMT -5
One other thing that Lemon reminded me of was those ugly White Sox short pants, shirt-tail out uniforms they wore one season...Sliding on the base paths in shorts is not a good idea... God awful. Was it a Bill Veeck idea gone terribly wrong? Yes, we can blame that one on Veeck. Not on a level with the midget Eddie Gaedel going to bat or even Disco Demolition Night. Hard to believe they only wore those uniforms for three games in 1976. It sure seemed like more than that. Probably did to the players too, who were understandably needled mercilessly by their opponents. There was an effort to get them to wear them again for a throwback uniform day, but they wanted nothing to do with it. My guess is the union wouldn't allow it. I recall a pudgy Wilbur Wood not showing to his best advantage. |
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Post by desousa on Sept 21, 2018 13:16:23 GMT -5
I looked up the 1976 White Sox in Baseball reference and they had some big men on their pitching staff. The aforementioned Wilbur Wood,Terry Forster (listed at 200 pound) and Goose Gossage. None of them looked good in shorts.
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Post by kaybli on Sept 21, 2018 15:42:45 GMT -5
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 21, 2018 16:34:54 GMT -5
Well, I just lost about four hours worth of work putting together my all-time Detroit Tigers team. Vanished into thin air seconds before I was set to post it, along with overly elaborate explanations of why I made certain choices. I simply don't have the heart to try to gin it up again anytime soon. Maybe in a few days I can try to get the energy up to start from scratch, or maybe just list the barebones team without explanation and we can all take it from there. I know we've all been there and done that, but right now it just feels infuriating. Just wanted you to know I haven't forgotten it. Maybe it was all that talk of the White Sox wearing shorts.
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Post by inger on Sept 21, 2018 18:08:41 GMT -5
Well, I just lost about four hours worth of work putting together my all-time Detroit Tigers team. Vanished into thin air seconds before I was set to post it, along with overly elaborate explanations of why I made certain choices. I simply don't have the heart to try to gin it up again anytime soon. Maybe in a few days I can try to get the energy up to start from scratch, or maybe just list the barebones team without explanation and we can all take it from there. I know we've all been there and done that, but right now it just feels infuriating. Just wanted you to know I haven't forgotten it. Maybe it was all that talk of the White Sox wearing shorts. The same thing happened to me while doing the White Sox roster. Twice. Luckily, I had made pen and paper scribble notes, but I know what you mean...Re-typing seems to take twice as long and you seem to make 5 x the number of errors. One piece of advice that a guy gave me years ago that I TRY to remember but forget all too often...When working on a computer, save often... Also, on longer posts I will often copy the post just before I send it in case the unthinkable happens... |
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Post by kaybli on Sept 21, 2018 19:06:25 GMT -5
Well, I just lost about four hours worth of work putting together my all-time Detroit Tigers team. Vanished into thin air seconds before I was set to post it, along with overly elaborate explanations of why I made certain choices. I simply don't have the heart to try to gin it up again anytime soon. Maybe in a few days I can try to get the energy up to start from scratch, or maybe just list the barebones team without explanation and we can all take it from there. I know we've all been there and done that, but right now it just feels infuriating. Just wanted you to know I haven't forgotten it. Maybe it was all that talk of the White Sox wearing shorts. Sorry to hear that pipps. Was it a bug on the forum that made you lose it? Maybe I can report it to support. |
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Post by desousa on Sept 22, 2018 17:47:14 GMT -5
Cincinnati Reds All Time Team
Catcher: Johnny Bench, Ernie Lombardi. AAA: Bubbles Hargrave, Ed Bailey
First: Ted Kluszewski, Joey Votto. AAA: Frank McCormack, Sean Casey
Second: Joe Morgan, Brandon Phillips. AAA: Johnny Temple, Bid McPhee
Third: Tony Perez, Heinie Groh. AAA: Chris Sabo,
Short: Barry Larkin, Dave Concepcion. AAA: Leo Cardenas
OF: Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, Edd Roush, George Foster, Vada Pinson. AAA: Eric Davis, Cy Seymour, Bug Holliday, Ken Griffey SR.
Starters: Jim Maloney, Dolf Luque, Jose Rijo, Bucky Walters, Johnny Cueto. AAA: Bob Ewing, Noodles Hahn, Fred Toney, Mario Soto, Johnny Vander Meer
Bullpen: Aroldis Chapman (closer), Clay Carroll, Norm Charlton, John Franco, Joe Beggs. AAA: Pedro Bourbon
When I first thought I doing the Reds, I assumed they didn't have much pitching, but would have a hell of a lineup. When I was done, I was right about the pitching, but I think the line up is okay, not great. Most positions were easy, but not the OF. Robinson and Rose were no brainers. I put Roush in CF, but I remember Eric Davis being pretty good out there. George Foster was a pretty good hitter for a few years and Vada Pinson was always one of my favorite players from early childhood. I think I felt sorry for him because he hit under a hundred in the 61 series. I've got some good OF's in AAA.
The Reds pitching would probably have them ranked in the bottom third of the original 16. No real ace and after Chapman in the bullpen, you have good relievers, but not much depth.
Have at it guys. I was heavily medicated when I did my research, so I'm not sure if all the players I named were on the Reds.
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 23, 2018 16:08:06 GMT -5
Houston Astros
Catcher: Craig Biggio, Brad Ausmus, Alan Ashby
First: Jeff Bagwell, Lance Berkman, Bob Watson, Glenn Davis
Second: Jose Altuve, Joe Morgan, Bill Doran
Third: Alex Bregman, Morgan Ensberg, Ken Caminiti
SS: Carlos Correa, Dickie Thon
LF: Jose Cruz, Luis Gonzalez, Carlos Lee
CF: Cesar Cedeno, Jim Wynn
RF: George Springer, Hunter Pence, Derek Bell, Rusty Staub, Terry Puhl
Starters: Nolan Ryan, J.R. Richard, Roy Oswalt, Larry Dierker, Mike Scott, Joe Niekro
Bullpen: Billy Wagner, Dave Smith, Brad Lidge, Shane Reynolds, Don Wilson, Ken Forsch
Astros were a bit weak offensively at catcher, so Biggio gets the nod, though he played more second base and outfield. Dickie Thon was as good a player as anyone, until he was hit in the face with a fastball from Mike Torrez. Cedeno and Cruz were underrated players in my estimation - both complete ball players. Some of the franchize's best position players for the Astros are on their current roster: Correa, Altuve, Springer, Bregman. One thing is for sure: this is a team that can pitch, play defense, and hit. Lots of diversity in this pitching staff, too. Many different looks during the course of a seven-game series. I really like this team.
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Post by inger on Sept 23, 2018 17:19:52 GMT -5
The Astros aren’t one of the original 16 teams. Since that was Utah’s request, and he’s vamoosed... I see no problem with expanding to all franchises...
Considering that the other teams had a 60-year Head start, this team actually looks pretty durned good in comparison.
Speaking of Jose Cruz, had the Astrodome been a bit “more cozy” in his dY, he might have hit 20 HR per season. His ball park contributed greAtly to his being an under-appreciated star. Just imagine how many homers Jim Synn might have hit if they snugged up the dimensions a bit...I don’t think the old time Astros pitchers minded, though...
I’ve been raking the roads a bit on my time off lately, so I haven’t really even looked at the Reds much yet...
But I like this team more than I would have expected. Plus, it has a more modern feel, since we’re not trying to interpret dead ball era numbers (though the original dome played somewhere in between modern and dead ball numbers)...
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 23, 2018 18:00:43 GMT -5
Cincinnati Reds All Time Team Catcher: Johnny Bench, Ernie Lombardi. AAA: Bubbles Hargrave, Ed Bailey First: Ted Kluszewski, Joey Votto. AAA: Frank McCormack, Sean Casey Second: Joe Morgan, Brandon Phillips. AAA: Johnny Temple, Bid McPhee Third: Tony Perez, Heinie Groh. AAA: Chris Sabo, Short: Barry Larkin, Dave Concepcion. AAA: Leo Cardenas OF: Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, Edd Roush, George Foster, Vada Pinson. AAA: Eric Davis, Cy Seymour, Bug Holliday, Ken Griffey SR. Starters: Jim Maloney, Dolf Luque, Jose Rijo, Bucky Walters, Johnny Cueto. AAA: Bob Ewing, Noodles Hahn, Fred Toney, Mario Soto, Johnny Vander Meer Bullpen: Aroldis Chapman (closer), Clay Carroll, Norm Charlton, John Franco, Joe Beggs. AAA: Pedro Bourbon When I first thought I doing the Reds, I assumed they didn't have much pitching, but would have a hell of a lineup. When I was done, I was right about the pitching, but I think the line up is okay, not great. Most positions were easy, but not the OF. Robinson and Rose were no brainers. I put Roush in CF, but I remember Eric Davis being pretty good out there. George Foster was a pretty good hitter for a few years and Vada Pinson was always one of my favorite players from early childhood. I think I felt sorry for him because he hit under a hundred in the 61 series. I've got some good OF's in AAA. The Reds pitching would probably have them ranked in the bottom third of the original 16. No real ace and after Chapman in the bullpen, you have good relievers, but not much depth. Have at it guys. I was heavily medicated when I did my research, so I'm not sure if all the players I named were on the Reds. Eric Davis was a hell of a player. No one played any harder, which is why he suffered so many injuries. When healthy, there was nothing he couldn't do on a baseball field. |
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Post by inger on Sept 23, 2018 19:01:18 GMT -5
Agreed on Davis.
I’m not known for my love of Pete Rose. Rose is my definition of a man with talent but an ego that superceded the talent. He ran into outs all the time by over-estimating his speed and trying to be the hero. His stolen base efficiency is off the charts horrible for someone with the number of attempts he had.
That said, he belongs on the bench for this team, and could be a true super-utility player. He was also below average in the field. That was why he played so many different positions, not because of his “versatility”.
The reason for all this moaning and groaning is that there is no way he plays ahead of Eric Davis...
More to come on this team later...
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