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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 16, 2018 5:32:15 GMT -5
I also need more time to study the situation, but for sure any all-time team that has Chet Lemon, Sherm Lollar and Robin Ventura in the starting lineup is definitely showing some holes. Not that those guys weren't all good players -- they were -- but jeez, almost 120 years of history and this is the best you can produce? I guess we shouldn't be surprised -- a team with only three rings, two of them over a century ago, isn't churning out the best talent. People tend to forget that the curse of the Black Sox lasted as long as the curse of the Bambino. Maybe because unlike Boston, the White Sox weren't even coming tantalizingly close.
I will for sure have to go to the archives to see why Jose Abreu is outpointing Frank Thomas. Maybe The Big Hurt just made a better visual impression on me, but without looking at any stats I would have thought Thomas.
I recall Gary Peters as much for his hitting as for his pitching. I know, we all have our quirky favorites. Milt Pappas was one of mine.
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Post by inger on Sept 16, 2018 9:27:58 GMT -5
I also need more time to study the situation, but for sure any all-time team that has Chet Lemon, Sherm Lollar and Robin Ventura in the starting lineup is definitely showing some holes. Not that those guys weren't all good players -- they were -- but jeez, almost 120 years of history and this is the best you can produce? I guess we shouldn't be surprised -- a team with only three rings, two of them over a century ago, isn't churning out the best talent. People tend to forget that the curse of the Black Sox lasted as long as the curse of the Bambino. Maybe because unlike Boston, the White Sox weren't even coming tantalizingly close. I will for sure have to go to the archives to see why Jose Abreu is outpointing Frank Thomas. Maybe The Big Hurt just made a better visual impression on me, but without looking at any stats I would have thought Thomas. I recall Gary Peters as much for his hitting as for his pitching. I know, we all have our quirky favorites. Milt Pappas was one of mine. For quirks, don't forget that Terry Forster had a .397 career batting average that has no logical explanation other than that he had excellent hand/eye coordination. Even more amazing is that he hit .480 for the White Sox on 12 for 25 hitting... I feel as though Sherm Lollar has been short-changed in history. He was a fine catcher and could handle the bat... |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 17, 2018 12:47:29 GMT -5
For quirks, don't forget that Terry Forster had a .397 career batting average that has no logical explanation other than that he had excellent hand/eye coordination. Even more amazing is that he hit .480 for the White Sox on 12 for 25 hitting... I feel as though Sherm Lollar has been short-changed in history. He was a fine catcher and could handle the bat... No disrespect for Sherm Lollar, who was as you say a very fine catcher, a perennial All Star and a guy whose game I always admired. Perhaps I was unfairly comparing him, as his team's all-time catcher, to the likes of what will be up for discussion with other teams -- Berra, Dickey, Bench, Cochrane, Campanella, Hartnett, Fisk, Carter, Pudge (although those last two would be all-timers for teams we aren't doing, I think.) But I do agree, somewhat like Bill Freehan, his all-around skills and consistent performance for many years are definitely under-appreciated. Sherm Lollar got stuck in a Yankee system that, for over a decade, was loaded with major-league caliber catchers lined up behind Yogi -- Elston Howard, Gus Triandos, Clint Courtney, Johnny Blanchard and long-time riders of the pine like Ralph Houk and Charlie Silvera. Sherm was a good on-base guy, had at least a little power pop, and outstanding defensive skills. He passed away quite young, in his early 50s. So yes, for sure, three cheers for the man. When the pitcher Tim Lollar came to the majors with the Yankees, I just assumed he was the son of Sherm. He would have been around the right age for that. But they were not in fact related. I agree Looey Aparicio, like his SS contemporary Tony Kubek, had an OBP we would definitely not want in a lead-off man these days. But of course OBP was not a stat anyone knew about back then. I wonder, had it been emphasized, if skilled players like these might have adjusted their games somewhat. We can never know. Aparicio was an iconic figure for the White Sox, of course, a great defensive SS who led the league in stolen bases his first nine seasons. He was always an All Star -- Ted Williams named him his all-time SS on his opposition team -- and was universally considered an elite player at the time he played. Now of course we have different measurements to gauge such things. I do not in the least dispute your choice of Luke Appling as the all-time SS. A strange Luke Appling factoid. When he was 41 years old, the White Sox thought maybe playing short was getting to be too much for him. So they switched him to third. Well, they didn't like the performance of his replacement, so at age 42, Appling was switched back to short. He hit .301 and played 142 games. Still probably the only guy to be moved to short at that age! I think he remains the oldest player ever to hit a HR in one of those Cracker Jack Old Timer games they used to play -- what happened to those? He was 75 years old and put one into the LF seats at DC Stadium off of Warren Spahn. Talk about aging like a fine wine. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 17, 2018 12:49:26 GMT -5
Oh yeah, forgot to comment on Terry Forster and his .397 BA. I sure would not have guessed that, and I'm impressed you dug that out. Wasn't it Letterman who called him "A Fat Tub of Goo"?
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 17, 2018 13:54:05 GMT -5
Inger, after looking into a bit, I am afraid I still can't take Jose Abreu over Frank Thomas at first base. Thomas was admittedly no ballerina at first, but his offensive numbers are so vastly superior to Abreu's that I have no hesitation sticking with him. And it is not as if Abreu is a historically great defensive first baseman a la Keith Hernandez or Don Mattingly. No gold gloves, ranks fourth among active first basemen in range factor per game. Not as good as Pujols in his prime, or Goldschmidt now. I do agree that Abreu is a good defensive first baseman, much better than Thomas, but that gap is not nearly significant enough, to me at least, to override Thomas's offensive skills.
For his career, Thomas had a .419 OBP -- 20th of all-time -- with Chicago it was .427. Abreu -- again I emphasize a very fine player obviously -- has an OBP of .353, all with the White Sox. Adjusted OPS+ is 156 for Thomas (161 with the White Sox). It is 138 for Abreu. Thomas ranks 36th all-time for offensive WAR. Too early to compare Abreu there, since he is only five years into his career. Maybe if we were talking some other position, I would put more stock in the defensive numbers, but for first base, where I at least put more importance on offense than defense (both are obviously important), I have no qualms about taking Frank Thomas. Now if we are playing with a DH, we can work something out.
Speaking of DH -- it seems those White Sox teams of the early 80s were loaded with guys who should have been DHs -- Carlton Fisk, Harold Baines, Ron Kittle, Greg Luzinski. Too bad they were limited to only one DH per game.
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Post by desousa on Sept 17, 2018 14:51:06 GMT -5
I have to agree with pipps on Thomas over Abreu. He was an absolute beast of a hitter and OBP machine. The White Sox are a team of such good fielders, hiding a below average at first will not hurt that much. This team needs him in the line up. I don't have any real problems with the rest of the team. I do agree Appling over Davis and Aparicio. Catcher is a weak position. One thing I noticed while researching the Pale Hose, I was struck by how many good fielders they've had over the years. I bet pipps and Utah remember how good of a fielder Jim Landis was. When I was a kid, I would listen to the White Sox on the radio while lying in bed at night. Peters, Horlen, Wilhelm, Pete Ward, No Neck Williams, etc were a big part of my youth. Remember OF Carlos May? He had his right thumb partially blown off by a mortar while with the Marine Reserves, but still played over 10 seasons.
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Post by inger on Sept 17, 2018 15:00:39 GMT -5
Inger, after looking into a bit, I am afraid I still can't take Jose Abreu over Frank Thomas at first base. Thomas was admittedly no ballerina at first, but his offensive numbers are so vastly superior to Abreu's that I have no hesitation sticking with him. And it is not as if Abreu is a historically great defensive first baseman a la Keith Hernandez or Don Mattingly. No gold gloves, ranks fourth among active first basemen in range factor per game. Not as good as Pujols in his prime, or Goldschmidt now. I do agree that Abreu is a good defensive first baseman, much better than Thomas, but that gap is not nearly significant enough, to me at least, to override Thomas's offensive skills. For his career, Thomas had a .419 OBP -- 20th of all-time -- with Chicago it was .427. Abreu -- again I emphasize a very fine player obviously -- has an OBP of .353, all with the White Sox. Adjusted OPS+ is 156 for Thomas (161 with the White Sox). It is 138 for Abreu. Thomas ranks 36th all-time for offensive WAR. Too early to compare Abreu there, since he is only five years into his career. Maybe if we were talking some other position, I would put more stock in the defensive numbers, but for first base, where I at least put more importance on offense than defense (both are obviously important), I have no qualms about taking Frank Thomas. Now if we are playing with a DH, we can work something out. Speaking of DH -- it seems those White Sox teams of the early 80s were loaded with guys who should have been DHs -- Carlton Fisk, Harold Baines, Ron Kittle, Greg Luzinski. Too bad they were limited to only one DH per game. I suppose that in my thinking, I was putting this team together with the thought that we would keep the DeLorean dialed in to either all or almost seasons post 1973 so Frank Thomas could DH. There’s little doubt that if we only occasionally drifted back to the 50’s Thomas would likely hit his way into the line up. If nothing else, he has an infectious smilie and could probably smile his way into the lineup. In any event, the choice to start Abreu over Thomas was a difficult one for me and one that I knew would be panned by many. An interesting aspect about this franchise is that the stigma of the “Hitless Wonders” continued for many years. It wasn’t all about the players, either. The old Comiskey Park was 351 down both lines in the day. This should be taken into consideration when judging their hitters. Sherm Lollar’s 20 HR seasons were potentially 30 HR seasons in a park with friendlier confines, for instance. This was a franchise that stood firmly behind the concept of pitching and defense much longer than most did after the emergence of the lively ball... I believe that when Melton hit 33 HR and Dick Allen hit 30-something they were re-writing the record books in Chicago. It was only later when Thomas & Konerko and such vane along that the White Sox fans were treated to 40+ HR seasons. |
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Post by inger on Sept 17, 2018 15:17:28 GMT -5
Going back to the catching position and the Yankees connection to Sherm Lollar...there was st that time indeed a bit of congestion on the road to winning the Yankee catching job.
The Yankee management was mixed in their opinions about three young catchers. There was Berra, Lollar, and the now mostly forgotten Gus Niarhos.
Berra nor Lollar were thought at the time to have the defensive skills the Yanks wanted, though both could hit. Niarhos was excellent with the mitt, had virtually no power, but was amazingly patient and adept at drawing the base on balls.
In the end, the Yanks decided that Berra could improve with additional tutelage (any of this sounding familiar?), and that his left handed bat would play better in Yankee Stadium than Lollar’s righty stick, which was condemned to yet another deep LF at Comiskey.
Niarhos remained a bit longer as Yogi’s back up. I’ve commented on Niarhos before due to his unusual skill set of reaching base despite his lack of power. I’ll have to go look him up again, but if my memory serves me correctly he had a career BA of .252, and an OBP of .396. I know I’m close. I’m also quite certain his SLG was well below his OBP.
He remains one of my favorites among obscure Yankees!!!
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Post by inger on Sept 17, 2018 15:21:00 GMT -5
Okay, the OBP was only .390, the SLG was .308. Niarhos hit one HR in his 861 career st bats...
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 17, 2018 16:08:30 GMT -5
I have to agree with pipps on Thomas over Abreu. He was an absolute beast of a hitter and OBP machine. The White Sox are a team of such good fielders, hiding a below average at first will not hurt that much. This team needs him in the line up. I don't have any real problems with the rest of the team. I do agree Appling over Davis and Aparicio. Catcher is a weak position. One thing I noticed while researching the Pale Hose, I was struck by how many good fielders they've had over the years. I bet pipps and Utah remember how good of a fielder Jim Landis was. When I was a kid, I would listen to the White Sox on the radio while lying in bed at night. Peters, Horlen, Wilhelm, Pete Ward, No Neck Williams, etc were a big part of my youth. Remember OF Carlos May? He had his right thumb partially blown off by a mortar while with the Marine Reserves, but still played over 10 seasons. Desousa, good point, they did have a lot of good fielders. I do indeed remember Jim Landis -- he could fly, great to see that name again. They had a rifle-armed RFer named Mike Hershberger back in the 1960s. Ken Berry (not the actor from "F Troop") was another really good defensive OFer. Also Jungle Jim Rivera, a rather acrobatic CFer who I recall mainly toward the end of his career. Tommie Agee also. Good names in your post. Just remembering those names is to me as much fun as putting together the teams. Who couldn't like Walter "No-Neck" Williams? Fidgety little guy who could hit a little. Joel Horlen had a few really good years. I seem to recall him leading the AL in ERA one year. Pete Ward, for sure, I think came over from Baltimore. Mainly a third baseman, a decent hitter. As did a good defensive SS Ron Hansen, who was ROY with the Orioles. He had great range and a strong arm. Tom McCraw was a good defensive first sacker, not much of a hitter. Al Weis before he was a Met was a strong defensive second baseman for the ChiSox. Don Buford started with Chicago. I believe Inger mentioned Floyd Robinson on his team. A very solid hitter, not much remembered now. I remember seeing a young pitcher named Bruce Howard for the White Sox pitch a strong game at Memorial Stadium against the Orioles. It made me happy because I hated the Orioles in those days. Funny what you remember. They had a knuckleballing reliever named Eddie Fisher. A little before that, Frank Baumann. How about Dick Kenworthy? That is really going obscure. Third baseman I do believe. I sure do remember when Carlos May blew off the tip of his thumb in that training accident. He was the brother of Orioles/Reds slugger Lee May. I also recall when SS Roger Metzger lost the tips of some fingers in what I think was a power tool mishap. At least in my youth, the Sox games were on WCFL, 1000 on your AM dial. Bob Elson and Milo Hamilton. It seemed they jumped around on 50,000 watt stations, sometimes WMAQ 670 or WBBM 780. I don't keep up so much anymore, but I loved pulling in those games around the country from our home in the Philly burbs. The Tigers on WJR, the Cardinals on KMOX, the Cubs on WGN, the Twins on WCCO, the Pirates on KDKA, the Reds on WCKY (later WLW). Closer to home the Orioles on WBAL and the Senators on WTOP. The Yanks were on WCBS 880 when I was a kid, but they jumped around a lot too -- WHN 1050, WABC 770 -- I hated when WMCA 570 was their flagship, because it was a lousy 5,000 watt station. But I could usually pull in WPIX-TV by playing around with the giant omnidirectional antenna on our roof that shook the whole house when you changed its setting. Good times. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 17, 2018 16:20:34 GMT -5
An interesting aspect about this franchise is that the stigma of the “Hitless Wonders” continued for many years. It wasn’t all about the players, either. The old Comiskey Park was 351 down both lines in the day. This should be taken into consideration when judging their hitters. Sherm Lollar’s 20 HR seasons were potentially 30 HR seasons in a park with friendlier confines, for instance. This was a franchise that stood firmly behind the concept of pitching and defense much longer than most did after the emergence of the lively ball... I believe that when Melton hit 33 HR and Dick Allen hit 30-something they were re-writing the record books in Chicago. It was only later when Thomas & Konerko and such vane along that the White Sox fans were treated to 40+ HR seasons. I remember reading one time that the White Sox were the last original franchise to have a player reach 100 HRs for a career. It wasn't until Minnie Minoso in the 1950s. When Bill Melton retired in the 1970s, he held the franchise record with something like 154. So they were definitely late to the HR party. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 17, 2018 16:25:10 GMT -5
Okay, I just checked. Melton did have 154 HRs and that stood as the franchise record until 1987 when he was passed by Harold Baines.
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Post by inger on Sept 17, 2018 17:22:29 GMT -5
Hey guys, thanks for the feed back. I guess at least Landis and perhaps Berry should have been inked to MiLb deals...Their gloves alone were memorable.
Yes, this line up is a bit underwhelming, but I blame that on White Sox management and the size of the park...
One final salute to Gus Niarhos before he slips back into obscurity...and Mike Hershberger too, just for good measure...
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Post by kaybli on Sept 17, 2018 17:44:14 GMT -5
Looks like this thread has been a success! Good job inger! I've enjoyed reading through the all time teams so far!
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 17, 2018 17:49:25 GMT -5
Looks like this thread has been a success! Good job inger! I've enjoyed reading through the all time teams so far! Thanks for dropping by, Kaybli. Seeing what kind of outdated BS the old heads churn up. And you kids get off of my lawn, dammit!! |
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