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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 12, 2018 18:39:38 GMT -5
I would also put it close between Mize and Bottomley, but would probably agree with you on Mize....Johnny was also amazingly agile around first base, but Jim was no slouch.... I heard maybe too much about the way some of the rednecks treated the first black players....shameful....I hadn't heard that story that involved Musial...that Musial was a classy guy, and might have done so, is believable....Musial was still pretty young in '47 so I don't know if he would have had the stature to take that stand...couple that with his quiet nature and I don't know...…….I'll tell you what, though...if you wanted to make an all-time list of "good guys"...we have talked today about two that I think belong there....Musial and Walter Johnson.. I have a friend who's father owned a hotel in DC that Musial stayed in a lot. He always said Musial was one of the classiest people he'd ever met. He said Robert Mitchum stayed there too and the hallway on his floor smelled like pot. He would also have a girlfriend staying on a different floor than the one he and his wife. Desousa -- I know I told this story on the old Pinstripes Plus site, but wanted to again regarding what you said about Musial. Stan was one of the speakers at our Little League banquet back in 1960. This was in the burbs of Philly, not even home turf for him. After all the talks, he was signing autographed pictures for all the kids who came up. He ran out of pictures before many of us -- me included -- got our chance to get one. So he very patiently wrote down the names and addresses of each of us and promised he would send us an autographed picture after he got home. A few weeks later, there was a hand-addressed manila envelope in our mailbox, and inside was a personalized 8 by 10 glossy autographed photo of Stan the Man, along with a short note apologizing that he didn't bring enough pictures with him. You can bet I have always been a fervent Stan Musial advocate ever since. Just a humble, sweet man who didn't have an enemy in the world. I thought it was telling that at least seven of his teammates had sons they named Stan after him. One of them was ex-Yankee Stan Javier, whose father Julian was a teammate of Stan toward the end of his career. Stan Musial was one of the princes of this great game. |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 18:46:48 GMT -5
this is too much fun...a name like Spahn brings to mind Sain….then Burdette...there will be so many memories as we work our way through these teams...yes, I remember Dick Hyde, but appreciate you bringing him up...I had probably forgotten him..
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 19:07:21 GMT -5
I like this effort desousa. However, there’s still some room left on the roster. You only selected a four man rotation, and ghere’s Room for three more arms in the bullpen, which can be legit relievers or extra starters you assigned to AAA. Not to mention that we then have some room for a few more AAA pitchers.
We also have room for a back up OF. We usually have two, but you added Torre as a utility guy, which is a good choice that could push oput fielder # 5 off the roster... Keep in mind that we should have a b/u OF that can cover CF at least we’ll enough to get by a few days...
It was really a pleasant surprise to see the Cards team here this evening. I had no idea you were working on another roster. I feel blessed to have other posters contributing teams to the thread. Thanks to those who have done so or plan to. Thanks also to those who are interested but reluctant to do the choosing. The task is not always easy!
I’ll look at these Cards a bit deeper later, but on the surface this roster looks hard to replace...
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 19:20:39 GMT -5
This team has really stirred some great discussion! GreSt choice, desousa! You have indeed opened up the Pipps/Utah connection...
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 12, 2018 19:51:47 GMT -5
This team has really stirred some great discussion! GreSt choice, desousa! You have indeed opened up the Pipps/Utah connection... I defer completely to Utah for his in-depth knowledge of the game and his seniority on the players he has seen. But thanks for mentioning me in the same sentence!! |
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 20:14:22 GMT -5
Naturally, it’s now easy for me to suggest that we add Dizzy Dean to the starting rotation. Do I get a huzzah! on that???
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 20:21:41 GMT -5
Next, I liked desousa’s idea of starting Jim Edmonds over Brock. Since we’re still looking for an OF, shall we add him to the roster and let he and Brock fight for starting time? Brock will make a fine pinch runner. With the pitchers batting, he’ll get some swings off the bench, too...er...I mean...IF Edmonds beats him out... (:
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 20:52:53 GMT -5
This team has really stirred some great discussion! GreSt choice, desousa! You have indeed opened up the Pipps/Utah connection... I defer completely to Utah for his in-depth knowledge of the game and his seniority on the players he has seen. But thanks for mentioning me in the same sentence!! I don’t think you’ve ever revealed your age on this forum, pipps-H. The players you mention seeing reveal that you must be between about seventy-two and seventy-eleven. You may be our second in life experience on the forum... |
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 21:00:10 GMT -5
Not to pound on Brock, because was a remarkable and valuable player, but he didn’t have much plate discipline until his later years. Much to his credit, he learned it on the backside of his years.
The other negative that I became very aware of several years back was that he was quite error-prone. In his 19 seasons, he averaged a very respectable 138 games per season, but also 10.3 errors per season. His high was 19, and he was slightly over ten in several seasons.
If anyone can excuse that, like by saying that he was ripped off because he touched more balls than anyone else or something like that, I could consider laying off him for that...
An error every fourteenth game in the outfield is pretty scary...
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 22:10:33 GMT -5
Out of respect for the still-spirited conversation about the Cardinals, I have decided to withhold revealing the White Sox for another day...
This one has been fun...
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 23:21:12 GMT -5
Gosh durn, desousa. You really did a great job with that pitching staff. To name anyone else is pretty difficult. Two bullpen stars and out. Sutter and Hrabosky had a couple of great Cardinal seasons but sort of bombed in the other seasons. I guess you'll have to use the old time strategy of pitching a "failed" starter when you need to go to the bullpen...So, if this team is going to lose, it's probably going to be when they need middle relief...just about like most teams, huh? But, who's going to tell Bob Gibson we're taking him out of the game? Not me...
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Post by utahyank on Sept 12, 2018 23:35:22 GMT -5
Gosh durn, desousa. You really did a great job with that pitching staff. To name anyone else is pretty difficult. Two bullpen stars and out. Sutter and Hrabosky had a couple of great Cardinal seasons but sort of bombed in the other seasons. I guess you'll have to use the old time strategy of pitching a "failed" starter when you need to go to the bullpen...So, if this team is going to lose, it's probably going to be when they need middle relief...just about like most teams, huh? But, who's going to tell Bob Gibson we're taking him out of the game? Not me... would one of you take a look at Murry Dickson....he lost some prime years to WWII....I thought he was decent, but not sure where he ends up all=time....after I thought about Dickson, there came to mind a couple lefties who were decent as well...Howie Pollet and Al Brazle…..this was after the war, and I think they lost years as well.....these have probably been looked at and didn't make a cut, even for a reliever, although maybe Dickson should... The Cards had a pitcher named Max Lanier too....I think he was a leader in some players jumping to the Mexican League...in fact, I'm not sure he ever got re-instated in MLB... |
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Post by inger on Sept 12, 2018 23:57:08 GMT -5
Gosh durn, desousa. You really did a great job with that pitching staff. To name anyone else is pretty difficult. Two bullpen stars and out. Sutter and Hrabosky had a couple of great Cardinal seasons but sort of bombed in the other seasons. I guess you'll have to use the old time strategy of pitching a "failed" starter when you need to go to the bullpen...So, if this team is going to lose, it's probably going to be when they need middle relief...just about like most teams, huh? But, who's going to tell Bob Gibson we're taking him out of the game? Not me... would one of you take a look at Murry Dickson....he lost some prime years to WWII....I thought he was decent, but not sure where he ends up all=time.... IMHO, the two years that he lost to military service were probably at the worst possible time for his baseball career. He had been getting some spot starts along with relief work for the two years prior to those years ('44 and '45). When he came back he won a starting role and was the best he ever was going to be at that point in his career. An unfortunate trade to Pittsburgh where he pitched for a horrid team destroyed his career W-L record. He returned to have one more fine season for St. Louis at the ripe old age of 39. The best of his years were probably in Pittsburgh, though the record would belie that. If we judge him as a Cardinal, I would make him a marginal candidate for a middle relief role, more likely in AAA... Interesting fact: In Pittsburgh Dickson went 20-16 on the 1951 team that finished at 64-90. He got a first place vote in the MVP for his 20-16; 4.02 season (with a .616 OPS+, too)...The ERA was 104+ but again, with a horrid team behind him. He also got MVP votes in 1952, finishing in 13th place with a record of 14-21; 3.57 (ERA + of 111) In 1953 he represented the Pirates in the All Star Game whilst going 10-19; 4.53 (ERA + of 99). This was a 101-loss team...the Garagiola years had started in Pittsburgh. They also had Dick Hall when he was still a 2B before he converted into a pretty decent relief pitcher... Given these facts, I would say he was quite admired by many...His career record of 172-181 ; 3.66 (ERA+ of 109) was certainly beneath his ability. He could have probably won 200 games with a stronger team like St Louis for his entire career...Example, record for St. Louis was 72-57 (.571), elsewhere it was 100-127. The ERA plus in St. Louis was 112 vs. his career mark of 109... |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 13, 2018 0:53:14 GMT -5
would one of you take a look at Murry Dickson....he lost some prime years to WWII....I thought he was decent, but not sure where he ends up all=time.... IMHO, the two years that he lost to military service were probably at the worst possible time for his baseball career. He had been getting some spot starts along with relief work for the two years prior to those years ('44 and '45). When he came back he won a starting role and was the best he ever was going to be at that point in his career. An unfortunate trade to Pittsburgh where he pitched for a horrid team destroyed his career W-L record. He returned to have one more fine season for St. Louis at the ripe old age of 39. The best of his years were probably in Pittsburgh, though the record would belie that. If we judge him as a Cardinal, I would make him a marginal candidate for a middle relief role, more likely in AAA... Interesting fact: In Pittsburgh Dickson went 20-16 on the 1951 team that finished at 64-90. He got a first place vote in the MVP for his 20-16; 4.02 season (with a .616 OPS+, too)...The ERA was 104+ but again, with a horrid team behind him. He also got MVP votes in 1952, finishing in 13th place with a record of 14-21; 3.57 (ERA + of 111) In 1953 he represented the Pirates in the All Star Game whilst going 10-19; 4.53 (ERA + of 99). This was a 101-loss team...the Garagiola years had started in Pittsburgh. They also had Dick Hall when he was still a 2B before he converted into a pretty decent relief pitcher... Given these facts, I would say he was quite admired by many...His career record of 172-181 ; 3.66 (ERA+ of 109) was certainly beneath his ability. He could have probably won 200 games with a stronger team like St Louis for his entire career...Example, record for St. Louis was 72-57 (.571), elsewhere it was 100-127. The ERA plus in St. Louis was 112 vs. his career mark of 109... thanks inger….good synopsis….Dickson was a pretty good little pitcher...not great, but pretty good...kind of a right-handed Bobby Shantz, I thought... |
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Post by desousa on Sept 13, 2018 8:29:02 GMT -5
Gosh durn, desousa. You really did a great job with that pitching staff. To name anyone else is pretty difficult. Two bullpen stars and out. Sutter and Hrabosky had a couple of great Cardinal seasons but sort of bombed in the other seasons. I guess you'll have to use the old time strategy of pitching a "failed" starter when you need to go to the bullpen...So, if this team is going to lose, it's probably going to be when they need middle relief...just about like most teams, huh? But, who's going to tell Bob Gibson we're taking him out of the game? Not me... would one of you take a look at Murry Dickson....he lost some prime years to WWII....I thought he was decent, but not sure where he ends up all=time....after I thought about Dickson, there came to mind a couple lefties who were decent as well...Howie Pollet and Al Brazle…..this was after the war, and I think they lost years as well.....these have probably been looked at and didn't make a cut, even for a reliever, although maybe Dickson should... The Cards had a pitcher named Max Lanier too....I think he was a leader in some players jumping to the Mexican League...in fact, I'm not sure he ever got re-instated in MLB... Lanier did get re-instated in 1949 after missing a couple seasons and finished his career in 1949. His son Hal was an infielder, mostly with the Giants, but did finish up with two seasons with the Yanks. On advice from my baseball council, I'll add Pollet and Lanier to my bullpen and move Dizzy up from AAA. Dickson and Brazle are close, but can't have everybody. I'll also go back to my original lineup with Jim Edmonds to play center. Thanks for the reminder on how bad Brock was in the outfield. |
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