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Post by sierchio on Jan 13, 2018 22:04:50 GMT -5
And on that note... how is Larry Walker NOT in the HOF!?!?!?! He's a clear cut HOF by the stats... I don't get this institute... every year, around this time, I look into who is in who shouldn't be and who isn't in that should be... and it just shows how ass backwards this institute is!!!
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Post by sierchio on Jan 13, 2018 22:08:44 GMT -5
And sorry for making so many posts, but for you older fellows, is Dick Allen a HOF? Who would you compare him to, as far as players I would have watched during my lifetime? I mean, dude didn't have a 20+ year career so the counting stats might not be there but his OPS+ was over 150 and he won an MVP
EDIT: Same goes for Frank Howard...
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Post by inger on Jan 14, 2018 22:01:47 GMT -5
For all you fellows older than me... How is Jack Morris in the HOF? I mean, if you're gonna put him in... then Cone has to be in!!! And I don't think Cone was a HOF... Maybe a Hall of Awesome... but not HOF... but Jack Morris? He pitched more innings, about 1,000 more... yet his WAR was about 60 points lower and his ERA+ was only 105!!!! David Cone had a 121 ERA+ This isn't at all to say Cone is a HOF... just that Morris clearly isn't!!! Who's $*()%*($( did he (#*@*(@() Somewhere on this forum (and I can't find it) I made at least one or two detailed posts on Morris, so I'm about talked out about him, but I'll say that you said most of it in a sentence. I never saw Morris as a HOF player, not even in his best couple of seasons...He was a durable and good pitcher in his best years that had some high-profile post season and late season moments in his career that got him a lot of exposure, and he had, as many players do, a couple of sports writers that sniffed his jock every day for 15 years that pushed very hard for him...Nuff' said. No, he does NOT belong in the HOF... |
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Post by inger on Jan 14, 2018 22:30:55 GMT -5
And sorry for making so many posts, but for you older fellows, is Dick Allen a HOF? Who would you compare him to, as far as players I would have watched during my lifetime? I mean, dude didn't have a 20+ year career so the counting stats might not be there but his OPS+ was over 150 and he won an MVP EDIT: Same goes for Frank Howard... Sh*t. I wrote you a decent post on this, and the site lost it...I'm too pissed to rewrite it for now. I wouldn't put either one in the HOF...Maybe tomorrow, or later tonight...or whenever I get over my little snit, I'll rewrite it...Damn... |
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Post by inger on Jan 15, 2018 1:03:22 GMT -5
And sorry for making so many posts, but for you older fellows, is Dick Allen a HOF? Who would you compare him to, as far as players I would have watched during my lifetime? I mean, dude didn't have a 20+ year career so the counting stats might not be there but his OPS+ was over 150 and he won an MVP EDIT: Same goes for Frank Howard... Okay, let's try this again... Dick Allen: Here were the problems with Dick Allen. He was very talented, but considered to be a bit of a problem child. First, he spent too much time on the DL in many of his seasons. They were seasons where he was very good when available, but, like any job in baseball or at any other profession, the most important asset an employee can have is his ability to show up for work. It was not uncommon for Allen to miss 30-40 games in a season. Secondly, his value was entirely wrapped up in his very productive bat. He played at 3B, LF, and 1B in his career, not because he was versatile but because in the days before the DH, teams had to find a spot to force a bat into their lineup that wouldn't hurt them much defensively. Next, came Allen's personality and reputation as a man. He made some mistakes, like going to a horse race once and not showing up to play the next day. He had a contentious relationship with most sports writers, was known to hold out for more money on some occasions and just generally be a miserable man for the press to deal with, and sometimes the fans. Allen also got a raw deal a time or two, like the time he was in a fight with team mate Frank Thomas. Thomas was traded the day after the fight, and in racially charged Philadelphia, Allen was viewed by many as a black man who had taken a white man's job away. Years later, the truth came out, and it was revealed that Thomas had a history of making racially charged comments, and that one of them had angered Allen. During a scuffle Thomas struck Allen with a baseball bat. There were witnesses and that led to the trade of Thomas, which had to do with the use of a baseball bat in the fight, and nothing to do with his race. During the settlement of the issue in the clubhouse, it was agreed that Thomas would be traded, but that Allen and the rest of the Phillies team would remain silent about the specifics of the incident. Thomas was under no such gag order was free to relate his "false" version of the fight and portray Allen as the bad guy. So, deserved or not, another black mark went on Allen's character. There were times that controversy seemed to find Allen, and not the other way around, like when he was traded for Curt Flood, who decided to challenge the reserve clause and refused to report to Philadelphia. The trade was scuttled and though Allen had nothing to do with it, there was his name in the press again. Once again, in racially charged Philadelphia, it mattered that these were black players and the the "good old boys" of MLB were being challenged. As a player, Allen was very scary when in the line up and healthy, but his career ended too soon, and he lost too many games during that career. In the end, Dick Allen was a very good player, who I would say needed to stay at his peak another 3 + years to earn his way to the HOF...or just to have stayed healthy in 3-4 of the years when he didn't. Here's something some of you don't know, or have forgotten. Allen had two brothers that played as lesser lights in MLB during his career. Hank Allen and Ron Allen made minor marks. He can Here's something many of you may not know at all: Allen was also a jazz and R&B musician professionally and was the lead singer of a Doo-Wop group that played a lot of the hot spots in Philadelphia. He can be heard here, singing as Rich Allen of the Ebonistics on the recording that got the group the most attention.
EDIT...Not sure why the link is not working...Here is the link...
www.google.com/search?q=dick+allen+ebonistics%27&rlz=1C1RNVH_enUS563US564&oq=dick+allen+ebonistics%27&aqs=chrome..69i57.13015j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 |
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Post by inger on Jan 15, 2018 1:12:05 GMT -5
I decided to give Frank Howard his own post.
Howard was indeed a monster in the late 60's to early 70's. A player who really stood out during that era when pitching dominated baseball, he cranked out 172 HR in a four year period. Howard's problems were that he was a slow and ponderous giant, and that while he hit okay before age 30, it was not until he was 30 that he got himself locked in as a big power hitter and started a late prime that started too late, and ended too soon. Nothing about his career outside of those four great years screamed HOF famer. And like Allen, he was moved from LF to 1B, not because of his versatility, but because his team had to figure out where best to hide him on the field to make room for that huge bat of his. It also didn't help Howard that he was often the only attraction on some very sad Senators ball clubs, so he was a player who might have earned 2 or 3 MVP awards, but didn't get the support to win them that playing on a winning team would have... In the end, players like Howard often wind up with the press being too concerned about what they COULDN'T do, than with what they COULD do, costing tons of votes. If the Hall of Fame was based on a players best 4 years, Howard would be there, front and center. But it's not. I think most of the sports writers look for either a six or seven year peak...Howard couldn't offer that...
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Post by inger on Jan 15, 2018 22:21:53 GMT -5
And that leaves us with Walker. Simply put, in his early career in Montreal, he did a little bit of everything well. Then under the shadow of the steroid era, he moves to the thin air of Colorado and his numbers explode off the page when he's healthy, but he's frequently not healthy. For me he's a very good player who had a couple of great seasons...but even the raw numbers have an issue...Take his 2001 season when he hit 38 HR. That seems like a huge number, right? But in context, with Bonds hitting 73, Sosa 64, Gonzalez 57, Shawn Green and Todd Helton at 49...you see where this goes. The American League also featured 5 players with over 40 HR, led by Alex-Rodriguez with 52...
No one quite knows why Larry Walker became so great at hitting the baseball out of nowhere at the age of 30, and perhaps we never will. Maybe it was just Coors Field. Maybe that's reason enough to hold his numbers suspect, maybe not...In the end, for me, it's the lack of ability to stay on the field. His top seasons in games played were 153,143,143,142,138,137,136,133,131,130. There were seasons in between with 103, 83, and 87. I just can't pull the trigger on him...
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Post by kaybli on Jan 16, 2018 0:02:22 GMT -5
Good reads inger! You're turning into this site's jwild! Very informative!  |
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Post by inger on Jan 16, 2018 12:00:45 GMT -5
Aww, shucks. I'm better than that...LOL...
Did you listen to Rich Allen and the Ebonistics? He had a good voice, though a surprisingly high tenor for a big, athletic fella...
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Post by kaybli on Jan 16, 2018 12:13:57 GMT -5
Aww, shucks. I'm better than that...LOL... Did you listen to Rich Allen and the Ebonistics? He had a good voice, though a surprisingly high tenor for a big, athletic fella... I heard Echos of November. Good voice. |
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Post by sierchio on Jan 16, 2018 16:25:31 GMT -5
Thanks inger!!! You're the man!! I still think Walker is deserving... as he IS the 10th best RF in baseball history based on WAR... (which takes into account playing in Denver...) As per BaseballReference...
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 148 (94), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 58 (44), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Right Field (10th):
72.6 career WAR / 44.6 7yr-peak WAR / 58.6 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 24):
73.2 career WAR / 43.0 7yr-peak WAR / 58.1 JAWS
Allen and Howard though, what you said makes sense, and being as I obviously never saw them, really appreciate your POV...
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Post by inger on Jan 16, 2018 18:30:58 GMT -5
I had a bit of a harder time in not pulling the lever for Walker. The numbers were SO very good for several seasons. With the fact that he had a cannon on his shoulder, and a good rep as a defender, I could probably be swayed. I guess that's why they leave players on the ballot for 15 years. Sometimes they aren't up to snuff with the competition on a few elections and look a bit better later...I would have liked to have seen him get into 150+ games at least a half dozen times...
Here's a bit more perspective on this. Look at 1999. Walker led the league in BA, OBP, and SLG (and of course OPS). He hit 37 HR and knocked in 115. The numbers were Mickey Mantle-silly, if you will. Yet, he finished in 10th place in the MVP voting. All nine of the players that finished ahead of him played in 153 games, with the lone exception of Mike Piazza, who played in 141, almost all at catcher. Walker played in 127 games. That means that for 35 games that season, someone else was in RF for the Rockies. Angel Echevarria, Derrick Gibson, J.R. Phillips...and a few others took the position over. None of them putting up even league average numbers. So, you have a starter with a 164 OPS+, but in the games he's not there, nearly 20% of the games played, the team is bogged down with sub-average offensive contributions, as well as less than Walker's defensive skills.
I hate to have to drop this bomb, but look at the video game numbers at Coors Field in 1999 in comparison to the road marks. Are you kidding me??? (okay, that's gonna be a bitch to read, but go to Baseball Reference if you must...
Good god...this is worse than I thought. I checked Walker's Coors Field lifetime numbers... .381/.462/.710. Taking that into consideration, I can't budge on the HOF at this point...There was a time when we could say that the player had no choice of what ballpark they played in, but that was long ago... His road numbers were .278/.370/.495
Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+
Home 66 58 273 232 72 107 15 2 26 70 9 2 31 17 .461 .531 .879 1.410 204 4 7 0 3 5 3 .422 140 253
Away 61 53 240 206 36 59 11 2 11 45 2 2 26 35 .286 .375 .519 .894 107 8 5 0 3 3 2 .294 55 131
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Post by sierchio on Jan 17, 2018 13:18:08 GMT -5
I think I could hit .300 at Coors Field
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Post by inger on Jan 17, 2018 21:55:53 GMT -5
I think I could hit .300 at Coors Field Good luck slugging .710 though...but then again, Babe Ruth slugged .690 for his whole career!!! Sheesh. Is there any supporting evidence to prove he was human??? |
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Post by sierchio on Jan 18, 2018 21:00:35 GMT -5
I once read he ate bull testicles... the 1920's O.G. PED's.. lol
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