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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 8, 2021 18:42:10 GMT -5
My overall take on Derek Jeter's career is that he is arguably the second-greatest SS in history. Honus Wagner may have that number one slot locked up in perpetuity, and I never see much knowledgeable pushback on that score.
I say arguably because a case can be made for Ernie Banks, but his time at the position was relatively short and he actually played more games at first.
A case might be made for A-Rod, but for reasons that don't need to be re-hashed, that can't be done.
Cal Ripken, Joe Cronin, Arky Vaughn, Alan Trammell -- all had great careers, but I would take Jeter over any of them.
Second to Honus Wagner is a good place to be.
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Post by chiyankee on Sept 8, 2021 19:40:09 GMT -5
I've had to listen to so many idiots say how overrated Jeter is that he's now become underrated.
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Post by chiyankee on Sept 8, 2021 19:58:35 GMT -5
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 8, 2021 20:19:37 GMT -5
I've had to listen to so many idiots say how overrated Jeter is that he's now become underrated. Mostly hardcore Yankee haters or baseball know-nothings. When I hear that, I ask "over-rated compared to what?" I want them to tell me who was better. They never have a good answer. |
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Post by inger on Sept 8, 2021 21:28:13 GMT -5
I've had to listen to so many idiots say how overrated Jeter is that he's now become underrated. Mostly hardcore Yankee haters or baseball know-nothings. When I hear that, I ask "over-rated compared to what?" I want them to tell me who was better. They never have a good answer. Then, I get the ones that say he had no range. He had below average range to his left. He was often able to overcome that with positioning. Those same people should have just tried to get a ball past him in the hole at 3rd… |
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 9, 2021 7:42:05 GMT -5
Jeter was as rangy as anyone coming in on slow rollers or going back on fly balls. He was solid to exciting to his right but was below average to his left, never fully extending his glove arm laying out and hitting the ground with his throwing arm before his body. It seemed like an unconscious, natural movement that he couldn’t overcome and likely no one ever mentioned to him or tried to correct. If they had, Jeter would have worked his butt off to overcome it.
Where Jeter truly excelled defensively was the little things: sweep tags, run downs, nailing the lead runner at third, corralling errant throws to the bag, making off balance throws, using his arm strength to cover for outfielders’ weak arms by reducing the distance for the cut off throw, directing traffic in the infield, and NEVER botching a play at a crucial time. Does anyone recall any defensive mental errors, like we see regularly with Torres: laying back on grounders that produce infield singles, dropping throws to bases, losing the ball on the transfer from the glove hand on routine ground balls, watching a ball hit the ground between himself and another fielder? We saw him play for nearly two decades, and I can recall one dropped fly ball. And, it didn’t lead to a run scored. Jeter just did not extend innings for the opposition.
Was he Ozzie Smith or Mark Belanger defensively? No, but that’s a bar not many have or will reach. I suspect they would have traded some defensive range for Jeter’s total bases and a couple of his eight 200 hit seasons.
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Post by noetsi on Sept 9, 2021 8:13:57 GMT -5
He made no mistakes on the balls he reached. His offense made him a HOF player.
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Post by noetsi on Sept 9, 2021 8:15:31 GMT -5
My overall take on Derek Jeter's career is that he is arguably the second-greatest SS in history. Honus Wagner may have that number one slot locked up in perpetuity, and I never see much knowledgeable pushback on that score. I say arguably because a case can be made for Ernie Banks, but his time at the position was relatively short and he actually played more games at first. A case might be made for A-Rod, but for reasons that don't need to be re-hashed, that can't be done. Cal Ripken, Joe Cronin, Arky Vaughn, Alan Trammell -- all had great careers, but I would take Jeter over any of them. Second to Honus Wagner is a good place to be. Those were great offensive players. They weren't in the league of the great defensive shortstops. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 9, 2021 9:17:25 GMT -5
Jeter was as rangy as anyone coming in on slow rollers or going back on fly balls. He was solid to exciting to his right but was below average to his left, never fully extending his glove arm laying out and hitting the ground with his throwing arm before his body. It seemed like an unconscious, natural movement that he couldn’t overcome and likely no one ever mentioned to him or tried to correct. If they had, Jeter would have worked his butt off to overcome it. Where Jeter truly excelled defensively was the little things: sweep tags, run downs, nailing the lead runner at third, corralling errant throws to the bag, making off balance throws, using his arm strength to cover for outfielders’ weak arms by reducing the distance for the cut off throw, directing traffic in the infield, and NEVER botching a play at a crucial time. Does anyone recall any defensive mental errors, like we see regularly with Torres: laying back on grounders that produce infield singles, dropping throws to bases, losing the ball on the transfer from the glove hand on routine ground balls, watching a ball hit the ground between himself and another fielder? We saw him play for nearly two decades, and I can recall one dropped fly ball. And, it didn’t lead to a run scored. Jeter just did not extend innings for the opposition. Was he Ozzie Smith or Mark Belanger defensively? No, but that’s a bar not many have or will reach. I suspect they would have traded some defensive range for Jeter’s total bases and a couple of his eight 200 hit seasons. You nailed the essence of Jeter. His situational awareness was off the charts. There is no statistic to measure that. Most everyone on this board saw him play at least a thousand games. You'd be hard-pressed to find an instance where he made a careless play. It doesn't even seem like a debatable topic. |
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Post by inger on Sept 9, 2021 9:31:32 GMT -5
My overall take on Derek Jeter's career is that he is arguably the second-greatest SS in history. Honus Wagner may have that number one slot locked up in perpetuity, and I never see much knowledgeable pushback on that score. I say arguably because a case can be made for Ernie Banks, but his time at the position was relatively short and he actually played more games at first. A case might be made for A-Rod, but for reasons that don't need to be re-hashed, that can't be done. Cal Ripken, Joe Cronin, Arky Vaughn, Alan Trammell -- all had great careers, but I would take Jeter over any of them. Second to Honus Wagner is a good place to be. Those were great offensive players. They weren't in the league of the great defensive shortstops. I believe you to be too dependent on Strat-O-Matic’s rating to declare yourself an authority on the subject… |
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 9, 2021 9:47:53 GMT -5
Those were great offensive players. They weren't in the league of the great defensive shortstops. I believe you to be too dependent on Strat-O-Matic’s rating to declare yourself an authority on the subject… Actually, Noetsi must not be paying attention to Strat-O-Matic (SOM). I looked up Derek Jeter’s Hall of Fame SOM card online. Jeter is listed as a 1: the highest fielding rating possible. I guess Noetsi’s description that Jeter “made no mistakes on the balls he reached” counted for something and then some with SOM. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 9, 2021 9:50:44 GMT -5
You mentioned Smith and Belanger for defense, and you'll get no argument from me. I put Omar Vizquel in that company too. And Luis Aparicio was pretty close.
There are hardcore dWAR guys who place Belanger above Ozzie for sustained peak performance. I'm not confident enough in defensive metrics to make a case one way or the other. I saw plenty of both of them and they were amazing. Although Vizquel might actually have made more jaw-dropping plays than anyone.
Old school -- Joe Tinker, Rabbit Maranville, Lou Boudreau -- high on the metric and standard charts and more importantly to me the reliable witness charts. All three graceful magicians who constantly amazed their contemporaries.
Great players. Jeter for the complete package is superior to all of them.
Somewhere I have yellowed notes I took over 50 years ago from some old-timers who had watched Honus Wagner play. You would have thought they were describing a mythical creature. I came to the conclusion that even if he was half of what they said he was, he was one helluva player.
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Post by inger on Sept 9, 2021 10:05:45 GMT -5
I believe you to be too dependent on Strat-O-Matic’s rating to declare yourself an authority on the subject… Actually, Noetsi must not be paying attention to Strat-O-Matic (SOM). I looked up Derek Jeter’s Hall of Fame SOM card online. Jeter is listed as a 1: the highest fielding rating possible. I guess Noetsi’s description that Jeter “made no mistakes on the balls he reached” counted for something and then some with SOM. As a former SOM player myself, I know that “1” is the range rating. Hmmm. I might have expected a 2… |
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 9, 2021 10:10:16 GMT -5
You mentioned Smith and Belanger for defense, and you'll get no argument from me. I put Omar Vizquel in that company too. And Luis Aparicio was pretty close. There are hardcore dWAR guys who place Belanger above Ozzie for sustained peak performance. I'm not confident enough in defensive metrics to make a case one way or the other. I saw plenty of both of them and they were amazing. Although Vizquel might actually have made more jaw-dropping plays than anyone. Old school -- Joe Tinker, Rabbit Maranville, Lou Boudreau -- high on the metric and standard charts and more importantly to me the reliable witness charts. All three graceful magicians who constantly amazed their contemporaries. Great players. Jeter for the complete package is superior to all of them. Somewhere I have yellowed notes I took over 50 years ago from some old-timers who had watched Honus Wagner play. You would have thought they were describing a mythical creature. I came to the conclusion that even if he was half of what they said he was, he was one helluva player. The only reason I didn’t include Omar Vizquel is through some brain wiring failure I can never remember his name. I can see him and his play at shortstop, but his name routinely escapes me. He’s in the top three defensively that I ever saw at the position. And, you are correct about plays that left the mouth agape. Aparicio like Rizzuto were before my time, but I’ve heard recounting of both defensively. I was told that Rizzuto had a knack for getting rid of the ball in whatever unbalanced position he was in, just nabbing the fastest baserunners. To me, that is the art of playing shortstop. Knowing instinctively where you are in space in relationship to the speed of the runner and getting the ball in the baseman’s glove, wherever it may be. |
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Post by inger on Sept 9, 2021 10:12:36 GMT -5
You mentioned Smith and Belanger for defense, and you'll get no argument from me. I put Omar Vizquel in that company too. And Luis Aparicio was pretty close. There are hardcore dWAR guys who place Belanger above Ozzie for sustained peak performance. I'm not confident enough in defensive metrics to make a case one way or the other. I saw plenty of both of them and they were amazing. Although Vizquel might actually have made more jaw-dropping plays than anyone. Old school -- Joe Tinker, Rabbit Maranville, Lou Boudreau -- high on the metric and standard charts and more importantly to me the reliable witness charts. All three graceful magicians who constantly amazed their contemporaries. Great players. Jeter for the complete package is superior to all of them. Somewhere I have yellowed notes I took over 50 years ago from some old-timers who had watched Honus Wagner play. You would have thought they were describing a mythical creature. I came to the conclusion that even if he was half of what they said he was, he was one helluva player. From all I’ve gathered, Honus Wagner was neither beast nor man, but perhaps something in between. He possessed super human strength. Had huge hands (very helpful in the days of no or almost useless gloves). Cat-like reflexes, and like Jeter, was simply a ball player. He understood the game and never let the game come to him. He went out and controlled the game. He kept it at his tempo. If any player in the game was Babe Ruth before there was Babe Ruth, Wagner was the man. Put him up against Ty Cobb one on one and Cobb would leave whimpering… |
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