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Post by rizzuto on Sept 9, 2021 10:13:18 GMT -5
Actually, Noetsi must not be paying attention to Strat-O-Matic (SOM). I looked up Derek Jeter’s Hall of Fame SOM card online. Jeter is listed as a 1: the highest fielding rating possible. I guess Noetsi’s description that Jeter “made no mistakes on the balls he reached” counted for something and then some with SOM. As a former SOM player myself, I know that “1” is the range rating. Hmmm. I might have expected a 2… Perhaps it could have been at one time? I am not a SOM guru, but I read the Hall of Fame cards take the top 7 seasons. Jeter worked in the offseason on his range one year (after being told he needed to do so) and followed with a couple of his best seasons defensively. |
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Post by inger on Sept 9, 2021 10:16:52 GMT -5
You mentioned Smith and Belanger for defense, and you'll get no argument from me. I put Omar Vizquel in that company too. And Luis Aparicio was pretty close. There are hardcore dWAR guys who place Belanger above Ozzie for sustained peak performance. I'm not confident enough in defensive metrics to make a case one way or the other. I saw plenty of both of them and they were amazing. Although Vizquel might actually have made more jaw-dropping plays than anyone. Old school -- Joe Tinker, Rabbit Maranville, Lou Boudreau -- high on the metric and standard charts and more importantly to me the reliable witness charts. All three graceful magicians who constantly amazed their contemporaries. Great players. Jeter for the complete package is superior to all of them. Somewhere I have yellowed notes I took over 50 years ago from some old-timers who had watched Honus Wagner play. You would have thought they were describing a mythical creature. I came to the conclusion that even if he was half of what they said he was, he was one helluva player. The only reason I didn’t include Omar Vizquel is through some brain wiring failure I can never remember his name. I can see him and his play at shortstop, but his name routinely escapes me. He’s in the top three defensively that I ever saw at the position. And, you are correct about plays that left the mouth agape. Aparicio like Rizzuto were before my time, but I’ve heard recounting of both defensively. I was told that Rizzuto had a knack for getting rid of the ball in whatever unbalanced position he was in, just nabbing the fastest baserunners. To me, that is the art of playing shortstop. Knowing instinctively where you are in space in relationship to the speed of the runner and getting the ball in the baseman’s glove, wherever it may be. And to think, Rizzuto’s hometown Brooklyn Dodgers rejected him because he was “too small”… |
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Post by inger on Sept 9, 2021 10:22:09 GMT -5
As a former SOM player myself, I know that “1” is the range rating. Hmmm. I might have expected a 2… Perhaps it could have been at one time? I am not a SOM guru, but I read the Hall of Fame cards take the top 7 seasons. Jeter worked in the offseason on his range one year (after being told he needed to do so) and followed with a couple of his best seasons defensively. As players aged, their D ratings changed. The worst rating was a four. I would think Jeter may have tumbled to a 3 at the end of his career… Those ratings were accompanied by a number that represented their fielding percentage. Catchers and outfielders also had a rating for throwing… |
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Post by noetsi on Sept 9, 2021 10:28:30 GMT -5
I did not base my comments on Jeter on stratomatic. But on reading other's comments on him particularly on his lack of range. 1 is the best rating for a defensive player in that game. There is also arm strength and error ratings, but arm strength mainly applies to outfielders.
We should play stratomatic sometime. This is a perfect forum to do it in.
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 9, 2021 10:30:59 GMT -5
You mentioned Smith and Belanger for defense, and you'll get no argument from me. I put Omar Vizquel in that company too. And Luis Aparicio was pretty close. There are hardcore dWAR guys who place Belanger above Ozzie for sustained peak performance. I'm not confident enough in defensive metrics to make a case one way or the other. I saw plenty of both of them and they were amazing. Although Vizquel might actually have made more jaw-dropping plays than anyone. Old school -- Joe Tinker, Rabbit Maranville, Lou Boudreau -- high on the metric and standard charts and more importantly to me the reliable witness charts. All three graceful magicians who constantly amazed their contemporaries. Great players. Jeter for the complete package is superior to all of them. Somewhere I have yellowed notes I took over 50 years ago from some old-timers who had watched Honus Wagner play. You would have thought they were describing a mythical creature. I came to the conclusion that even if he was half of what they said he was, he was one helluva player. The only reason I didn’t include Omar Vizquel is through some brain wiring failure I can never remember his name. I can see him and his play at shortstop, but his name routinely escapes me. He’s in the top three defensively that I ever saw at the position. And, you are correct about plays that left the mouth agape. Aparicio like Rizzuto were before my time, but I’ve heard recounting of both defensively. I was told that Rizzuto had a knack for getting rid of the ball in whatever unbalanced position he was in, just nabbing the fastest baserunners. To me, that is the art of playing shortstop. Knowing instinctively where you are in space in relationship to the speed of the runner and getting the ball in the baseman’s glove, wherever it may be. For sure your namesake is in that company too Rizz. Incredible instincts. There are some kinescopes on YouTube of him playing but not enough to reveal much. I've seen films of some of his acrobatic plays. He was wonderful, and such a good guy. |
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 9, 2021 10:31:47 GMT -5
The only reason I didn’t include Omar Vizquel is through some brain wiring failure I can never remember his name. I can see him and his play at shortstop, but his name routinely escapes me. He’s in the top three defensively that I ever saw at the position. And, you are correct about plays that left the mouth agape. Aparicio like Rizzuto were before my time, but I’ve heard recounting of both defensively. I was told that Rizzuto had a knack for getting rid of the ball in whatever unbalanced position he was in, just nabbing the fastest baserunners. To me, that is the art of playing shortstop. Knowing instinctively where you are in space in relationship to the speed of the runner and getting the ball in the baseman’s glove, wherever it may be. And to think, Rizzuto’s hometown Brooklyn Dodgers rejected him because he was “too small”… Ironically, by none other than Dodgers’ manager Casey Stengel, who told him to "Go get a shoeshine box." Casey evidently changed his mind as the manager of the Yankees. |
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Post by inger on Sept 9, 2021 10:35:25 GMT -5
Are we at all short-changing Trammell or Dave Concepcion? They may have been a notch below when it came to making the impossible play, but both were extremely smooth, and added more than most contemporaries on offense.
I’m happy to see Ripken receive few plaudits here. I didn’t think of him as a great SS for more than maybe 2-3 years…He was more a product of hype than reality and an ego machine that dominated the franchise…
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Post by inger on Sept 9, 2021 10:37:05 GMT -5
And to think, Rizzuto’s hometown Brooklyn Dodgers rejected him because he was “too small”… Ironically, by none other than Dodgers’ manager Casey Stengel, who told him to "Go get a shoeshine box." Casey evidently changed his mind as the manager of the Yankees. It’s a wonder if Casey’s biting wit didn’t get his ass kicked a few hundred times… |
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 9, 2021 10:45:21 GMT -5
Are we at all short-changing Trammell or Dave Concepcion? They may have been a notch below when it came to making the impossible play, but both were extremely smooth, and added more than most contemporaries on offense. I’m happy to see Ripken receive few plaudits here. I didn’t think of him as a great SS for more than maybe 2-3 years…He was more a product of hype than reality and an ego machine that dominated the franchise… I didn’t see enough of Trammell game to game to judge (not in the Yankees division) with authority. I don’t think he touches Ozzie, Belanger and Omar. Concepcion has some wonderful range numbers, if I recall, and paired with Joe Morgan was as stout as can be up the middle defensively. Trammell and Whitaker sort of go together in my mind. Concepcion (5) stopped winning Gold Gloves once Ozzie (13) came on the scene in the National League. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 9, 2021 11:04:35 GMT -5
You mentioned Smith and Belanger for defense, and you'll get no argument from me. I put Omar Vizquel in that company too. And Luis Aparicio was pretty close. There are hardcore dWAR guys who place Belanger above Ozzie for sustained peak performance. I'm not confident enough in defensive metrics to make a case one way or the other. I saw plenty of both of them and they were amazing. Although Vizquel might actually have made more jaw-dropping plays than anyone. Old school -- Joe Tinker, Rabbit Maranville, Lou Boudreau -- high on the metric and standard charts and more importantly to me the reliable witness charts. All three graceful magicians who constantly amazed their contemporaries. Great players. Jeter for the complete package is superior to all of them. Somewhere I have yellowed notes I took over 50 years ago from some old-timers who had watched Honus Wagner play. You would have thought they were describing a mythical creature. I came to the conclusion that even if he was half of what they said he was, he was one helluva player. From all I’ve gathered, Honus Wagner was neither beast nor man, but perhaps something in between. He possessed super human strength. Had huge hands (very helpful in the days of no or almost useless gloves). Cat-like reflexes, and like Jeter, was simply a ball player. He understood the game and never let the game come to him. He went out and controlled the game. He kept it at his tempo. If any player in the game was Babe Ruth before there was Babe Ruth, Wagner was the man. Put him up against Ty Cobb one on one and Cobb would leave whimpering… Former Pirate Manager Danny Murtaugh addressed one of our local baseball banquets back in the mid-70s. He was a hilarious story teller. Anyway, he was playing for the Pirates in 1951 when Honus Wagner was a coach. At that point Wagner would have been in his late 70s. He said that not only could Wagner still smash the ball sharply for fielding practice, but he could still scoop up grounders and threw so hard that he stung the players' hands. There are youtube videos of Wagner at age 59 batting and fielding as a Pirates coach. He was the real deal. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 9, 2021 11:17:40 GMT -5
Are we at all short-changing Trammell or Dave Concepcion? They may have been a notch below when it came to making the impossible play, but both were extremely smooth, and added more than most contemporaries on offense. I’m happy to see Ripken receive few plaudits here. I didn’t think of him as a great SS for more than maybe 2-3 years…He was more a product of hype than reality and an ego machine that dominated the franchise… I didn’t see enough of Trammell game to game to judge (not in the Yankees division) with authority. I don’t think he touches Ozzie, Belanger and Omar. Concepcion has some wonderful range numbers, if I recall, and paired with Joe Morgan was as stout as can be up the middle defensively. Trammell and Whitaker sort of go together in my mind. Concepcion (5) stopped winning Gold Gloves once Ozzie (13) came on the scene in the National League. My memory of Trammell was that he was more consistent and steady than spectacular. A fine offensive SS to be sure. Concepcion definitely is part of the conversation. I felt like I was watching him in the post-season every year. Yep, his wide range is what I most recall as well. You know Tony Kubek had great range as well, and a strong arm. Yeah, I know the pebble and the bad bounce to the throat in the 1960 World Series. But he and Richardson were another smooth as silk duo. Kubek was tall --6'3" I believe -- and he used his height to great advantage in swallowing up balls deep in the hole. His spinal injury really curtailed his career. |
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Post by rizzuto on Sept 9, 2021 12:34:16 GMT -5
I didn’t see enough of Trammell game to game to judge (not in the Yankees division) with authority. I don’t think he touches Ozzie, Belanger and Omar. Concepcion has some wonderful range numbers, if I recall, and paired with Joe Morgan was as stout as can be up the middle defensively. Trammell and Whitaker sort of go together in my mind. Concepcion (5) stopped winning Gold Gloves once Ozzie (13) came on the scene in the National League. My memory of Trammell was that he was more consistent and steady than spectacular. A fine offensive SS to be sure. Concepcion definitely is part of the conversation. I felt like I was watching him in the post-season every year. Yep, his wide range is what I most recall as well. You know Tony Kubek had great range as well, and a strong arm. Yeah, I know the pebble and the bad bounce to the throat in the 1960 World Series. But he and Richardson were another smooth as silk duo. Kubek was tall --6'3" I believe -- and he used his height to great advantage in swallowing up balls deep in the hole. His spinal injury really curtailed his career. My friend Joe said Kubek and Richardson turned double plays as well as anyone he ever saw, and that’s saying something because he was as knowledgeable a fan as anybody I’ve ever known. Born and raised in California, Joe became a Yankees fan after seeing a picture of Joe DiMaggio and his son Joe on the cover of Sport Magazine in 1946, when he was eight years old. He had that picture framed in his home.   |
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Post by inger on Sept 9, 2021 12:41:00 GMT -5
My memory of Trammell was that he was more consistent and steady than spectacular. A fine offensive SS to be sure. Concepcion definitely is part of the conversation. I felt like I was watching him in the post-season every year. Yep, his wide range is what I most recall as well. You know Tony Kubek had great range as well, and a strong arm. Yeah, I know the pebble and the bad bounce to the throat in the 1960 World Series. But he and Richardson were another smooth as silk duo. Kubek was tall --6'3" I believe -- and he used his height to great advantage in swallowing up balls deep in the hole. His spinal injury really curtailed his career. My friend Joe said Kubek and Richardson turned double plays as well as anyone he ever saw, and that’s saying something because he was as knowledgeable a fan as anybody I’ve ever known. Born and raised in California, Joe became a Yankees fan after seeing a picture of Joe DiMaggio and his son Joe on the cover of Sport Magazine in 1946, when he was eight years old. He had that picture framed in his home. The early retirement of both of those men was an additional shock to the system the Yankees had to overcome with their injured superstars and failing prospects. Sounds a bit familiar, huh? Then we add in tgat CBS refused to invest in the product and we think of today’s spendthrift ways. Hurry up, Yankees. The rest are gaining on you… |
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Post by noetsi on Sept 9, 2021 13:04:45 GMT -5
You wonder how good a shortstop Arod would have been had he stayed there.
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 9, 2021 13:20:09 GMT -5
My memory of Trammell was that he was more consistent and steady than spectacular. A fine offensive SS to be sure. Concepcion definitely is part of the conversation. I felt like I was watching him in the post-season every year. Yep, his wide range is what I most recall as well. You know Tony Kubek had great range as well, and a strong arm. Yeah, I know the pebble and the bad bounce to the throat in the 1960 World Series. But he and Richardson were another smooth as silk duo. Kubek was tall --6'3" I believe -- and he used his height to great advantage in swallowing up balls deep in the hole. His spinal injury really curtailed his career. My friend Joe said Kubek and Richardson turned double plays as well as anyone he ever saw, and that’s saying something because he was as knowledgeable a fan as anybody I’ve ever known. Born and raised in California, Joe became a Yankees fan after seeing a picture of Joe DiMaggio and his son Joe on the cover of Sport Magazine in 1946, when he was eight years old. He had that picture framed in his home. They were outstanding. With Clete Boyer at third at that same time, not many balls were getting through the infield. One of the reasons that squad was winning pennants almost every year. |
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