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Post by rizzuto on Mar 14, 2024 15:47:28 GMT -5
For what it's worth, Nick Pollack at Pitcher List just wrote up Thorpe's most recent spring training start:
Drew Thorpe (SDP) – 4.0 IP, 0 ER, 1 Hits, 2 BBs, 1 Ks. He sat 88/89 mph on his heater. Wait, what? Yeah. It’s a legit changeup, don’t get me wrong, and he has a cutter he targets inside to LHB with a sweeper to RHB, but hot dang, I can’t buy into a prospect arm who sits sub 90 mph, even if that changeup is Wacha/Estrada-esque.
Now, Pollack is speaking as someone who analyzes starting pitching from the perspective of fantasy league players who play in 12- and 15-team mixed leagues, so the value of a major league quality #4 or #5 starter means far less to him, but it does indicate he doesn't think Thorpe's ceiling is very high. I have no idea if Thorpe will be any good or not but the guys who make these projections are often wrong. Some kids work harder than others and improve. Maybe he can use a good sinker and command to establish himself as a quality pitcher even if it's a back end guy. One of the guys you reference from time to time said Wells wasn't a major league catcher, hopefully from what we've seen in a small sample size, he was wrong. I think the bigger point for me is reading the posts that suggest we need to trade all our prospects for every big name on the market. It's just not practical. IT's too expensive from a salary cap perspective to keep adding high priced players to the roster through trades or as FAs. In today's game, no one makes baseball trades, it's often small market teams unloading big contracts for prospects. We have a team that has a payroll of close to $300mm. We've potentially lost our best SP and panic has set in. What does that say about depth or roster construction? I'm looking for a more balanced approach. We do need some young players to establish themselves so we can get some production from players who aren't making $20mm per. While some fans seemingly think the LT is just a speed bump that we can mostly ignore, it is a real thing and it does influence the decisions we make. The emergence of Volpe and Wells can hopefully mitigate some of the bigger contracts but IMO, we need to develop more home grown talent to balance the big amount of money we pay out through free agency and trades. I mean, when was the last time we developed a home grown quality starting pitcher? So my post initiated partly as a reaction from reading for about the 50th time how stupid the FO was for not trading Jones for a SP. None of us know how good Jones might be, but he seems to have a bright future. Soto is likely a rental so there may be a spot for him. Burnes would have been a 1 year rental. I've often been critical of Cash but even with the injury to Cole, I understand why he would not want to give up a prospect like Jones for a 1 year rental. . More like 500th. Like a rude coo-coo clock. One trick pony. |
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Post by posadafan24 on Mar 14, 2024 15:49:32 GMT -5
I think they paid a steep price They gave a bunch of top prospects for for a guy thats like monty , especially since he is a 2 year rental .
He's younger than Monty. Monty played for better teams, but Cease has a better winning % than Monty. Monty never finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting. You call him a 2 year rental. Burnes would likely have been a 1 year rental. Even if you think that Cease is a "very good number 3 starter" If the Padres "prospect hugged" and didn't make that trade...Wouldn't they be even closer to wasting Machado's, Bogaerts', Tatis', Kim's, King's, Musgrove's "prime years" than they would be without a "very good number 3 starter"?
Cease pitched in a weak division . Monty has pitched in tougher divisions like the al east and al west. I also didnt say they got fleeced i only said they paid a steep price for a guy thats not a lot better than monty . And again cy young voting and winning a cy young means you had one above avg year not that you are top of a rotation pitcher . And i gave you proof of that with rick porcello |
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Post by posadafan24 on Mar 14, 2024 15:52:30 GMT -5
I have no idea if Thorpe will be any good or not but the guys who make these projections are often wrong. Some kids work harder than others and improve. Maybe he can use a good sinker and command to establish himself as a quality pitcher even if it's a back end guy. One of the guys you reference from time to time said Wells wasn't a major league catcher, hopefully from what we've seen in a small sample size, he was wrong. I think the bigger point for me is reading the posts that suggest we need to trade all our prospects for every big name on the market. It's just not practical. IT's too expensive from a salary cap perspective to keep adding high priced players to the roster through trades or as FAs. In today's game, no one makes baseball trades, it's often small market teams unloading big contracts for prospects. We have a team that has a payroll of close to $300mm. We've potentially lost our best SP and panic has set in. What does that say about depth or roster construction? I'm looking for a more balanced approach. We do need some young players to establish themselves so we can get some production from players who aren't making $20mm per. While some fans seemingly think the LT is just a speed bump that we can mostly ignore, it is a real thing and it does influence the decisions we make. The emergence of Volpe and Wells can hopefully mitigate some of the bigger contracts but IMO, we need to develop more home grown talent to balance the big amount of money we pay out through free agency and trades. I mean, when was the last time we developed a home grown quality starting pitcher? So my post initiated partly as a reaction from reading for about the 50th time how stupid the FO was for not trading Jones for a SP. None of us know how good Jones might be, but he seems to have a bright future. Soto is likely a rental so there may be a spot for him. Burnes would have been a 1 year rental. I've often been critical of Cash but even with the injury to Cole, I understand why he would not want to give up a prospect like Jones for a 1 year rental. . More like 500th. Like a rude coo-coo clock. One trick pony. Develop young players , develop young players . The yankees have a lousy track record of that over the last 20 years. So wouldnt it be better to trade some top prospects than hold on to so many ? I would think so |
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Post by inger on Mar 14, 2024 16:37:39 GMT -5
As far as Yamamoto goes, the Yankees made him a great offer. From what I heard they offered him a 10 year contract at 30 million per season. In a classy move, Yankees also didn't issue #18 last season so that it would be available for Yamamoto should he have chosen to sign with them. Cashman also few to Japan, which isn't exactly around the corner from NYC to see Yamamoto pitch. Offering a Pitcher that hasn't thrown a pitch in MLB a 10 year contract at 30 million per season isn't going "half assed" to try to sign him. As for Cease, he has top of the rotation stuff. As for his ERA being over 4.00 for 2 seasons. 1 of Cease's seasons where his ERA was over 4.00 was the ridiculous Covid season. Pettitte's ERA was over 4.00 for 9 seasons. Cease's career ERA is almost the same as Pettitte's. Pettitte 3.85. Cease 3.83. I'm not comparing Cease to Pettitte, but it's not fair to judge a pitcher only by his ERA. Cease had a 3.71 FIP in 2023. He was a bit unlucky in his ERA, which means he’s likely in line for a correction… |
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Post by kaybli on Mar 14, 2024 16:41:09 GMT -5
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Post by inger on Mar 14, 2024 16:47:45 GMT -5
I have no idea if Thorpe will be any good or not but the guys who make these projections are often wrong. Some kids work harder than others and improve. Maybe he can use a good sinker and command to establish himself as a quality pitcher even if it's a back end guy. One of the guys you reference from time to time said Wells wasn't a major league catcher, hopefully from what we've seen in a small sample size, he was wrong. I think the bigger point for me is reading the posts that suggest we need to trade all our prospects for every big name on the market. It's just not practical. IT's too expensive from a salary cap perspective to keep adding high priced players to the roster through trades or as FAs. In today's game, no one makes baseball trades, it's often small market teams unloading big contracts for prospects. We have a team that has a payroll of close to $300mm. We've potentially lost our best SP and panic has set in. What does that say about depth or roster construction? I'm looking for a more balanced approach. We do need some young players to establish themselves so we can get some production from players who aren't making $20mm per. While some fans seemingly think the LT is just a speed bump that we can mostly ignore, it is a real thing and it does influence the decisions we make. The emergence of Volpe and Wells can hopefully mitigate some of the bigger contracts but IMO, we need to develop more home grown talent to balance the big amount of money we pay out through free agency and trades. I mean, when was the last time we developed a home grown quality starting pitcher? So my post initiated partly as a reaction from reading for about the 50th time how stupid the FO was for not trading Jones for a SP. None of us know how good Jones might be, but he seems to have a bright future. Soto is likely a rental so there may be a spot for him. Burnes would have been a 1 year rental. I've often been critical of Cash but even with the injury to Cole, I understand why he would not want to give up a prospect like Jones for a 1 year rental. . More like 500th. Like a rude coo-coo clock. One trick pony. l Like a cuckoo clock that cuckoos constantly because it likes its own noise. Never, ever accepts the point of view of others and survives here despite being kicked off other forums. It thrives on attention and gets far too much of it here…Getting its jollies by arguing with no desire at all to be a decent citizen… |
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Post by qwik3457bb on Mar 14, 2024 16:58:42 GMT -5
I have no idea if Thorpe will be any good or not but the guys who make these projections are often wrong. Some kids work harder than others and improve. Maybe he can use a good sinker and command to establish himself as a quality pitcher even if it's a back end guy. One of the guys you reference from time to time said Wells wasn't a major league catcher, hopefully from what we've seen in a small sample size, he was wrong. I think the bigger point for me is reading the posts that suggest we need to trade all our prospects for every big name on the market. It's just not practical. IT's too expensive from a salary cap perspective to keep adding high priced players to the roster through trades or as FAs. In today's game, no one makes baseball trades, it's often small market teams unloading big contracts for prospects. We have a team that has a payroll of close to $300mm. We've potentially lost our best SP and panic has set in. What does that say about depth or roster construction? I'm looking for a more balanced approach. We do need some young players to establish themselves so we can get some production from players who aren't making $20mm per. While some fans seemingly think the LT is just a speed bump that we can mostly ignore, it is a real thing and it does influence the decisions we make. The emergence of Volpe and Wells can hopefully mitigate some of the bigger contracts but IMO, we need to develop more home grown talent to balance the big amount of money we pay out through free agency and trades. I mean, when was the last time we developed a home grown quality starting pitcher? So my post initiated partly as a reaction from reading for about the 50th time how stupid the FO was for not trading Jones for a SP. None of us know how good Jones might be, but he seems to have a bright future. Soto is likely a rental so there may be a spot for him. Burnes would have been a 1 year rental. I've often been critical of Cash but even with the injury to Cole, I understand why he would not want to give up a prospect like Jones for a 1 year rental. .
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For the most part, I agree with you about trading prospects for high priced veterans at the moment. Not just because the system is very low on pitching prospect depth at the moment, but because I think that to placate the fans, Hal and Cashman made a fundamental strategic error: they assessed this team as being close to a title winner, and then announced that they were going "all-in" without really going all-in. They've played it half-way, making enough improvements in key areas to sell tickets, but not enough to even lock up a playoff spot much less a title.
I understand the rationale: both Judge and Cole are in their early 30's, they're both MVP candidate players, and will shortly begin their decline, so the organization feels the need to strike now before those two contracts become the millstones they're going to be by about, say 2027. But this team still has multiple huge question marks even before the Cole injury. The names of the rotation look good on paper, but which of them can be counted on to provide elite pitching, now that Cole's status is up in the air for the entire season?
We HOPE Rodon can come back to be close to what he was in 2021 and 2022
Ditto for Cortes.
We hope Schmidt still has room to improve, but until he shows otherwise, his problem is still the same as it was yesterday, a large repertoire of pitches, none of them truly elite in both stuff and location. It seems like almost every at bat last season, he missed down the middle, waist-high, or both at least once and sometimes more than once. It's now a race against time with him to see if he can gain true command before his next serious arm injury.
We hope that Stroman's high ground ball percentage can keep him in the park, and overcome his low K percentage to make him a viable #3 starter in the brutal AL East.
The bullpen is iffy. Behind Holmes, who's an OK closer, they have guys who get hurt every season in Loaisiga and Kahnle, and then what? Hamilton looked great last year, but it's one year. Ferguson should be able to do a fair approximation of Wandy Peralta. No one knows what Marinaccio is right now, what with his awful control. Poteet and Morris seem to have excellent stuff, but can they command at the big league level? And Jeff Weaver is Jeff Weaver, your basic #6 starter/long man slag-arm.
The OF is vastly improved with Soto, Verdugo, and to a lesser extent, Grisham. So much depends on Rizzo and Lemahieu bouncing back significantly, but they're both in their mid-30's, and the odds of that aren't very good.
I will say this, if both Wells and Volpe come through as solid regulars (2-3 WAR would be good enough), then the odds of the Yanks making the playoffs jump up a lot.
Trading for Soto was acceptable if they felt they have a legit chance of retaining him. He can be the tentpole, giving the team time to develop Jones, Wells, Dominguez, Arias, Warren, Hampton, Volpe and maybe Peraza as well. If they lose Soto at the end of the season, then the entire decision-making approach to this season was worse than futile; it will actually hurt the team over the next 2-3 years.
"One who knows others is clever, but one who knows himself is enlightened."
--Lao-Tzu, Chapeter 33, Tao Te Ching
Right now, Yankees management looks neither clever nor enlightened.
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Post by Max on Mar 14, 2024 17:17:09 GMT -5
He's younger than Monty. Monty played for better teams, but Cease has a better winning % than Monty. Monty never finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting. You call him a 2 year rental. Burnes would likely have been a 1 year rental. Even if you think that Cease is a "very good number 3 starter" If the Padres "prospect hugged" and didn't make that trade...Wouldn't they be even closer to wasting Machado's, Bogaerts', Tatis', Kim's, King's, Musgrove's "prime years" than they would be without a "very good number 3 starter"?
Cease pitched in a weak division . Monty has pitched in tougher divisions like the al east and al west. I also didnt say they got fleeced i only said they paid a steep price for a guy thats not a lot better than monty . And again cy young voting and winning a cy young means you had one above avg year not that you are top of a rotation pitcher . And i gave you proof of that with rick porcello
I already addressed the differences in Cease and Porcello in another thread. What's it tell you about about Cease's stuff when his swing and miss ratio is right up there with 2 MLB Aces?
I see you ignored the question and the part in the post that said...You call him a 2 year rental. Burnes would likely have been a 1 year rental. Even if you think that Cease is a "very good number 3 starter" If the Padres "prospect hugged" and didn't make that trade...Wouldn't they be even closer to wasting Machado's, Bogaerts', Tatis', Kim's, King's, Musgrove's "prime years" than they would be without a "very good number 3 starter"?
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Post by Max on Mar 14, 2024 17:31:45 GMT -5
More like 500th. Like a rude coo-coo clock. One trick pony. Develop young players , develop young players . The yankees have a lousy track record of that over the last 20 years. So wouldnt it be better to trade some top prospects than hold on to so many ? I would think so Can you please explain...What trade value would those prospects have if the Yankees had a poor track record of developing prospects? |
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Post by posadafan24 on Mar 14, 2024 17:41:25 GMT -5
Cease pitched in a weak division . Monty has pitched in tougher divisions like the al east and al west. I also didnt say they got fleeced i only said they paid a steep price for a guy thats not a lot better than monty . And again cy young voting and winning a cy young means you had one above avg year not that you are top of a rotation pitcher . And i gave you proof of that with rick porcello
I already addressed the differences in Cease and Porcello in another thread. What's it tell you about about Cease's stuff when his swing and miss ratio is right up there with 2 MLB Aces?
I see you ignored the question and the part in the post that said...You call him a 2 year rental. Burnes would likely have been a 1 year rental. Even if you think that Cease is a "very good number 3 starter" If the Padres "prospect hugged" and didn't make that trade...Wouldn't they be even closer to wasting Machado's, Bogaerts', Tatis', Kim's, King's, Musgrove's "prime years" than they would be without a "very good number 3 starter"?
. The padres went all in 2 or 3 years ago when they traded for soto and picked up snell . Unlike the yankees who havent gone all in since the 08 -09 off season so thats not a good comparison . And again cease is not a ace or top of the rotation pitcher , it takes more than strikeouts to do that . He is too hittable to be a top of the rotation starter . He is more like monty than like a guy like burnes or snell. I used porcello as an example because winning young award means you had one above avg to great year not that the pitcher is a bonified ace or top of the rotation pitcher . |
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Post by posadafan24 on Mar 14, 2024 17:47:31 GMT -5
Develop young players , develop young players . The yankees have a lousy track record of that over the last 20 years. So wouldnt it be better to trade some top prospects than hold on to so many ? I would think so Can you please explain...What trade value would those prospects have if the Yankees had a poor track record of developing prospects? they had enough value at one time to get guys like cliff lee, burnes , castillo or cole. But then not long after they refused to trade for lee , and cole they flamed out . Now why is that ? |
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Post by Max on Mar 14, 2024 18:09:38 GMT -5
I already addressed the differences in Cease and Porcello in another thread. What's it tell you about about Cease's stuff when his swing and miss ratio is right up there with 2 MLB Aces?
I see you ignored the question and the part in the post that said...You call him a 2 year rental. Burnes would likely have been a 1 year rental. Even if you think that Cease is a "very good number 3 starter" If the Padres "prospect hugged" and didn't make that trade...Wouldn't they be even closer to wasting Machado's, Bogaerts', Tatis', Kim's, King's, Musgrove's "prime years" than they would be without a "very good number 3 starter"?
. The padres went all in 2 or 3 years ago when they traded for soto and picked up snell . Unlike the yankees who havent gone all in since the 08 -09 off season so thats not a good comparison . And again cease is not a ace or top of the rotation pitcher , it takes more than strikeouts to do that . He is too hittable to be a top of the rotation starter . He is more like monty than like a guy like burnes or snell. I used porcello as an example because winning young award means you had one above avg to great year not that the pitcher is a bonified ace or top of the rotation pitcher . Cease has a good hits to innings pitched ratio, and a swing and miss ratio that's up there with 2 MLB Aces. How's that translate into Cease being too hittable?
Let me ask again...What's it tell you about about Cease's stuff when his swing and miss ratio is right up there with 2 MLB Aces?
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Post by posadafan24 on Mar 14, 2024 18:12:15 GMT -5
. The padres went all in 2 or 3 years ago when they traded for soto and picked up snell . Unlike the yankees who havent gone all in since the 08 -09 off season so thats not a good comparison . And again cease is not a ace or top of the rotation pitcher , it takes more than strikeouts to do that . He is too hittable to be a top of the rotation starter . He is more like monty than like a guy like burnes or snell. I used porcello as an example because winning young award means you had one above avg to great year not that the pitcher is a bonified ace or top of the rotation pitcher . Cease has a good hits to innings pitched ratio, and a swing and miss ratio that's up there with 2 MLB Aces. How's that translate into Cease being too hittable?
Let me ask again...What's it tell you about about Cease's stuff when his swing and miss ratio is right up there with 2 MLB Aces?
. It tells me that he can strike out guys but as we saw last season , it takes more than strike outs to be a top of the rotation starter . |
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Post by Max on Mar 14, 2024 18:13:46 GMT -5
Can you please explain...What trade value would those prospects have if the Yankees had a poor track record of developing prospects? they had enough value at one time to get guys like cliff lee, burnes , castillo or cole. But then not long after they refused to trade for lee , and cole they flamed out . Now why is that ? How do you know that the teams that traded those players didn't get better value than they would have received if they traded with the Yankees? |
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Post by Max on Mar 14, 2024 18:16:17 GMT -5
Cease has a good hits to innings pitched ratio, and a swing and miss ratio that's up there with 2 MLB Aces. How's that translate into Cease being too hittable?
Let me ask again...What's it tell you about about Cease's stuff when his swing and miss ratio is right up there with 2 MLB Aces?
. It tells me that he can strike out guys but as we saw last season , it takes more than strike outs to be a top of the rotation starter . That's all it tells you? And, I also didn't just say strikeouts, Cease also has a good hits to innings pitched ratio. |
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