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Post by posadafan24 on Mar 14, 2024 19:02:14 GMT -5
they had enough value at one time to get guys like cliff lee, burnes , castillo or cole. But then not long after they refused to trade for lee , and cole they flamed out . Now why is that ? How do you know that the teams that traded those players didn't get better value than they would have received if they traded with the Yankees? What kind of question is that?! Pittsburg wanted frazier and andujar for cole , cashman said no and both frazier and andujar flamed out . Seattle wanted nunez or nove and cashman said no and then nunez flamed out and nova didnt end up being anything special . Point is those prospects had enough value to make other teams want them . But Cashman refused both trades and paid dearly for it , lee beat the yankees in the alcs later that season and cole beat the yankees with houston in the playoffs later that season . |
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Post by Max on Mar 15, 2024 10:02:12 GMT -5
How do you know that the teams that traded those players didn't get better value than they would have received if they traded with the Yankees? What kind of question is that?! Pittsburg wanted frazier and andujar for cole , cashman said no and both frazier and andujar flamed out . Seattle wanted nunez or nove and cashman said no and then nunez flamed out and nova didnt end up being anything special . Point is those prospects had enough value to make other teams want them . But Cashman refused both trades and paid dearly for it , lee beat the yankees in the alcs later that season and cole beat the yankees with houston in the playoffs later that season . It's a legitimate question, that's what kind of question it is. Maybe those teams did ask for those players, but in the end those teams received better offers from other teams and traded for better prospects/players than they would have received from the Yankees. The Pirates received Musgrove, plus, for Cole. Musgrove by himself tops Frazier and Andujar.
Seattle needed a 1Bman and received Smoak, plus, for Lee. That trade was better fit for Seattle than Nunez and Nova would have been, because as you said "Nunez flamed out and Nova didn't end up being anything special." For Burnes, the Brewers received a prospect that's rated higher than all the Yankee prospects except for Dominguez, plus they relieved a pitching prospect that's just about ready to pitch in MLB.
For Castillo, the Reds received Seattle's #2, #9, plus 2 other prospects. That sounds a lot like trading for Castillo would have cost the Yankees at least both Volpe and Dominguez.
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Post by posadafan24 on Mar 15, 2024 10:16:38 GMT -5
What kind of question is that?! Pittsburg wanted frazier and andujar for cole , cashman said no and both frazier and andujar flamed out . Seattle wanted nunez or nove and cashman said no and then nunez flamed out and nova didnt end up being anything special . Point is those prospects had enough value to make other teams want them . But Cashman refused both trades and paid dearly for it , lee beat the yankees in the alcs later that season and cole beat the yankees with houston in the playoffs later that season . It's a legitimate question, that's what kind of question it is. Maybe those teams did ask for those players, but in the end those teams received better offers from other teams and traded for better prospects/players than they would have received from the Yankees. The Pirates received Musgrove, plus, for Cole. Musgrove by himself tops Frazier and Andujar.
Seattle needed a 1Bman and received Smoak, plus,for Lee. That trade was better fit for Seattle than Nunez and Nova would have been, because as you said " Nunez flamed out and Nova didn't end up being anything special." For Burnes, the Brewers received a prospect that's rated higher than all the Yankee prospects except for Dominguez, plus they relieved a pitching prospect that's just about ready to pitch in MLB.
For Castillo, the Reds received Seattle's #2, #9, plus 2 other prospects. That sounds a lot like trading for Castillo would have cost the Yankees at least both Volpe and Dominguez.
Smoak flamed out too . But my point is that the yanks prospects at one time had enough value to make trades for guys like cole and lee. But cashman failed to strike while the iron was hot and paid for it dearly . As for the castillo trade , with dominguez getting hurt i dont think trading fir castillo would have been a terrible one . They could have signed a fa back in 21 for ss |
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Post by 1955nyyfan on Mar 15, 2024 10:17:17 GMT -5
I have no idea if Thorpe will be any good or not but the guys who make these projections are often wrong. Some kids work harder than others and improve. Maybe he can use a good sinker and command to establish himself as a quality pitcher even if it's a back end guy. One of the guys you reference from time to time said Wells wasn't a major league catcher, hopefully from what we've seen in a small sample size, he was wrong. I think the bigger point for me is reading the posts that suggest we need to trade all our prospects for every big name on the market. It's just not practical. IT's too expensive from a salary cap perspective to keep adding high priced players to the roster through trades or as FAs. In today's game, no one makes baseball trades, it's often small market teams unloading big contracts for prospects. We have a team that has a payroll of close to $300mm. We've potentially lost our best SP and panic has set in. What does that say about depth or roster construction? I'm looking for a more balanced approach. We do need some young players to establish themselves so we can get some production from players who aren't making $20mm per. While some fans seemingly think the LT is just a speed bump that we can mostly ignore, it is a real thing and it does influence the decisions we make. The emergence of Volpe and Wells can hopefully mitigate some of the bigger contracts but IMO, we need to develop more home grown talent to balance the big amount of money we pay out through free agency and trades. I mean, when was the last time we developed a home grown quality starting pitcher? So my post initiated partly as a reaction from reading for about the 50th time how stupid the FO was for not trading Jones for a SP. None of us know how good Jones might be, but he seems to have a bright future. Soto is likely a rental so there may be a spot for him. Burnes would have been a 1 year rental. I've often been critical of Cash but even with the injury to Cole, I understand why he would not want to give up a prospect like Jones for a 1 year rental. .
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For the most part, I agree with you about trading prospects for high priced veterans at the moment. Not just because the system is very low on pitching prospect depth at the moment, but because I think that to placate the fans, Hal and Cashman made a fundamental strategic error: they assessed this team as being close to a title winner, and then announced that they were going "all-in" without really going all-in. They've played it half-way, making enough improvements in key areas to sell tickets, but not enough to even lock up a playoff spot much less a title.
I understand the rationale: both Judge and Cole are in their early 30's, they're both MVP candidate players, and will shortly begin their decline, so the organization feels the need to strike now before those two contracts become the millstones they're going to be by about, say 2027. But this team still has multiple huge question marks even before the Cole injury. The names of the rotation look good on paper, but which of them can be counted on to provide elite pitching, now that Cole's status is up in the air for the entire season?
We HOPE Rodon can come back to be close to what he was in 2021 and 2022
Ditto for Cortes.
We hope Schmidt still has room to improve, but until he shows otherwise, his problem is still the same as it was yesterday, a large repertoire of pitches, none of them truly elite in both stuff and location. It seems like almost every at bat last season, he missed down the middle, waist-high, or both at least once and sometimes more than once. It's now a race against time with him to see if he can gain true command before his next serious arm injury.
We hope that Stroman's high ground ball percentage can keep him in the park, and overcome his low K percentage to make him a viable #3 starter in the brutal AL East.
The bullpen is iffy. Behind Holmes, who's an OK closer, they have guys who get hurt every season in Loaisiga and Kahnle, and then what? Hamilton looked great last year, but it's one year. Ferguson should be able to do a fair approximation of Wandy Peralta. No one knows what Marinaccio is right now, what with his awful control. Poteet and Morris seem to have excellent stuff, but can they command at the big league level? And Jeff Weaver is Jeff Weaver, your basic #6 starter/long man slag-arm.
The OF is vastly improved with Soto, Verdugo, and to a lesser extent, Grisham. So much depends on Rizzo and Lemahieu bouncing back significantly, but they're both in their mid-30's, and the odds of that aren't very good.
I will say this, if both Wells and Volpe come through as solid regulars (2-3 WAR would be good enough), then the odds of the Yanks making the playoffs jump up a lot.
Trading for Soto was acceptable if they felt they have a legit chance of retaining him. He can be the tentpole, giving the team time to develop Jones, Wells, Dominguez, Arias, Warren, Hampton, Volpe and maybe Peraza as well. If they lose Soto at the end of the season, then the entire decision-making approach to this season was worse than futile; it will actually hurt the team over the next 2-3 years.
"One who knows others is clever, but one who knows himself is enlightened."
--Lao-Tzu, Chapeter 33, Tao Te Ching
Right now, Yankees management looks neither clever nor enlightened.
Certainly I don't have any inside information but I do think the Yankees felt they were going to get Yamamoto. When he didn't sign with us I don't think there was a reasonable plan B. I agree with you on Soto, hope he has a good year and enjoys himself playing here. In the end, it will come down to money and I'd say it's 50/50 he resigns with us. If rumors are true that the Mets will make a big run at him, despite the bad optics, I'm not sure Hal has the stomach to sign the kind of check it will take to retain him. More likely he will use the talking point that we really like Dominguez and Jones. |
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Post by bomberhojoe on Mar 15, 2024 10:35:08 GMT -5
What kind of question is that?! Pittsburg wanted frazier and andujar for cole , cashman said no and both frazier and andujar flamed out . Seattle wanted nunez or nove and cashman said no and then nunez flamed out and nova didnt end up being anything special . Point is those prospects had enough value to make other teams want them . But Cashman refused both trades and paid dearly for it , lee beat the yankees in the alcs later that season and cole beat the yankees with houston in the playoffs later that season . It's a legitimate question, that's what kind of question it is. Maybe those teams did ask for those players, but in the end those teams received better offers from other teams and traded for better prospects/players than they would have received from the Yankees. The Pirates received Musgrove, plus, for Cole. Musgrove by himself tops Frazier and Andujar.
Seattle needed a 1Bman and received Smoak, plus, for Lee. That trade was better fit for Seattle than Nunez and Nova would have been, because as you said "Nunez flamed out and Nova didn't end up being anything special." For Burnes, the Brewers received a prospect that's rated higher than all the Yankee prospects except for Dominguez, plus they relieved a pitching prospect that's just about ready to pitch in MLB.
For Castillo, the Reds received Seattle's #2, #9, plus 2 other prospects. That sounds a lot like trading for Castillo would have cost the Yankees at least both Volpe and Dominguez.
I was wrong about Nova. I thought he had the potential to be real good. He was apparently a good clubhouse guy, I remember hearing somewhere that Nova was a SuperSport.   |
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Post by Max on Mar 15, 2024 10:43:45 GMT -5
LOL! Joe, that Nova doesn't look anything like the Nova my Aunt in her late 60's used to drive. Soupy was always one of my favorites.
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Post by Max on Mar 15, 2024 10:58:15 GMT -5
Posada 24 are you cherry picking again? You know, like when you mentioned the 1996 postseason then pivoted to game 5 when Pettitte's post season ERA showed that really wasn't a good postseason for him. Instead of cherry picking again...How about looking at Cease's career stats?
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Post by posadafan24 on Mar 15, 2024 11:02:26 GMT -5
Posada 24 are you cherry picking again? You know, like when you mentioned the 1996 postseason then pivoted to game 5 when Pettitte's post season ERA showed that really wasn't a good postseason for him. Instead of cherry picking again...How about looking at Cease's career stats? I did and guess what? Outside of strike outs, monty actually has better overall career numbers than cease . How about that ? Btw i never said cease was a bad pitcher just that i dont believe he is a top of the rotation starter . |
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Post by Max on Mar 15, 2024 11:57:23 GMT -5
Qimqam, the year after Stanton won the MVP he was still one of the most feared hitters in MLB. Then, Stanton got injured, he was still able to have another pretty good season for the Yankees, but he kept getting hurt. So far, that's not the case with Cease, Cease has been durable.
Cease doesn't have to finish 2nd in the Cy Young for him to still have top of the rotation stuff. Besides, you compared him to Schmidt. I would be 1 happy Yankee fan if Schmidt starts pitching like Cease. But so far, that's not the case, not even close. I would say that Cease is a better version of Pablo Lopez who is another pitcher with top of the rotation stuff with the potential to be an Ace.
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Post by Max on Mar 15, 2024 12:15:08 GMT -5
Posada 24 are you cherry picking again? You know, like when you mentioned the 1996 postseason then pivoted to game 5 when Pettitte's post season ERA showed that really wasn't a good postseason for him. Instead of cherry picking again...How about looking at Cease's career stats? I did and guess what? Outside of strike outs, monty actually has better overall career numbers than cease . How about that ? Btw i never said cease was a bad pitcher just that i dont believe he is a top of the rotation starter . I guess you're not counting winning % either. You said Cease was "very good number 3 starter." I said Cease has top of the rotation stuff. Is there that big of a difference between those 2 opinions? Can you name a #3 starter that has K rate and swing and miss ratio that Cease has? |
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Post by ypaterson on Mar 15, 2024 12:22:19 GMT -5
Qimqam, the year after Stanton won the MVP he was still one of the most feared hitters in MLB. Then, Stanton got injured, he was still able to have another pretty good season for the Yankees, but he kept getting hurt. So far, that's not the case with Cease, Cease has been durable. Cease doesn't have to finish 2nd in the Cy Young for him to still have top of the rotation stuff. Besides, you compared his record to Schmidt's. I would be 1 happy Yankee fan if Schmidt starts pitching like Cease. But so far, that's not the case. Does great "stuff" always lead to great results ? Since he came up with the Dodgers most people think Nate Eovaldi has had great stuff. Yet only in a couple seasons of a long career has he had a lot of success. On the other end, few folks have ever spoken of the stuff of Marcus Stroman. Yet their career records are almost identical. Sings and misses are nice but so is the ability to get a ground ball that starts a DP. I guess what I am asking is: How important is great stuff ? Is there "other stuff" we should be thinking about when making a trade ? |
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Post by qimqam on Mar 15, 2024 12:31:50 GMT -5
Qimqam, the year after Stanton won the MVP he was still one of the most feared hitters in MLB. Then, Stanton got injured, he was still able to have another pretty good season for the Yankees, but he kept getting hurt. So far, that's not the case with Cease, Cease has been durable. Cease doesn't have to finish 2nd in the Cy Young for him to still have top of the rotation stuff. Besides, you compared his record to Schmidt's. I would be 1 happy Yankee fan if Schmidt starts pitching like Cease. But so far, that's not the case. The Year after Cease was 2nd in the Cy Young he put up almost identical numbers to Schmidt ... and Cease was completely healthy Not saying he's not better than Schmidt just saying there' no way I trade top prospects for a guy coming off starter 5 numbers 3 of 5 seasons ... Cease has had a WHIP over 1.4 |
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Post by Max on Mar 15, 2024 12:47:40 GMT -5
Qimqam, the year after Stanton won the MVP he was still one of the most feared hitters in MLB. Then, Stanton got injured, he was still able to have another pretty good season for the Yankees, but he kept getting hurt. So far, that's not the case with Cease, Cease has been durable. Cease doesn't have to finish 2nd in the Cy Young for him to still have top of the rotation stuff. Besides, you compared his record to Schmidt's. I would be 1 happy Yankee fan if Schmidt starts pitching like Cease. But so far, that's not the case. Does great "stuff" always lead to great results ? Since he came up with the Dodgers most people think Nate Eovaldi has had great stuff. Yet only in a couple seasons of a long career has he had a lot of success. On the other end, few folks have ever spoken of the stuff of Marcus Stroman. Yet their career records are almost identical. Sings and misses are nice but so is the ability to get a ground ball that starts a DP. I guess what I am asking is: How important is great stuff ? Is there "other stuff" we should be thinking about when making a trade ? Having top of the rotation stuff is one thing, utilizing it to reach the level of an Ace or #2 starter is another. Eovaldi has spent time on the IR. In my opinion, except for about 2 or 3 seasons his hits to innings pitched is nothing to brag about. He can however be dominate at times.
In my opinion, a pitcher having good/great stuff is important. Other stuff to look at is a pitcher's potential for improvement, cost, wear and tear, and past stats.
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Post by posadafan24 on Mar 15, 2024 12:54:50 GMT -5
I did and guess what? Outside of strike outs, monty actually has better overall career numbers than cease . How about that ? Btw i never said cease was a bad pitcher just that i dont believe he is a top of the rotation starter . I guess you're not counting winning % either. You said Cease was "very good number 3 starter." I said Cease has top of the rotation stuff. Is there that big of a difference between those 2 opinions? Can you name a #3 starter that has K rate and swing and miss ratio that Cease has? You must have been convinced that german was an ace after he won 18 games a few years ago . Wins and losses dont mean much because it can easily be affected by run support , errors , etc . Btw i already explained to you that there is more to an ace than just strike outs . |
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Post by Max on Mar 15, 2024 12:56:06 GMT -5
Qimqam, the year after Stanton won the MVP he was still one of the most feared hitters in MLB. Then, Stanton got injured, he was still able to have another pretty good season for the Yankees, but he kept getting hurt. So far, that's not the case with Cease, Cease has been durable. Cease doesn't have to finish 2nd in the Cy Young for him to still have top of the rotation stuff. Besides, you compared his record to Schmidt's. I would be 1 happy Yankee fan if Schmidt starts pitching like Cease. But so far, that's not the case. The Year after Cease was 2nd in the Cy Young he put up almost identical numbers to Schmidt ... and Cease was completely healthy Not saying he's not better than Schmidt just saying there' no way I trade top prospects for a guy coming off starter 5 numbers 3 of 5 seasons ... Cease has had a WHIP over 1.4 Are there any cherries left on that poor cherry tree? What's this "year after" business? If you're going to compare pitchers like you did wouldn't the fair way to do so is to look at their career numbers? His trade value was higher in the past, but I said a trade for Cease wasn't going to be cheap, and it wasn't. |
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