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Post by desousa on Sept 3, 2018 9:55:43 GMT -5
I had Kiki Cuyler's baseball card when I was a kid, but didn't know that much about him. I looked him up in Baseball Reference and couldn't believe the Pirates traded him after the 27'season. Why would they trade this guy? He's pretty good. Turns out, he sat out much of the 27' season with a contract dispute. Was even benched during the 27 series. Buccos traded him to the Cubs for Sparky Adams, a middle infielder with a lifetime .286 average and OF Pete Scott, who would be out of the majors after the 28' season. Thanks for the lists inger. Love reading them. Might even do one myself. baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/cuyler-kiki |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 3, 2018 10:49:20 GMT -5
Hey inger....good list and nice work....I am just going to post some random thoughts about the Cubs....and it will be a train of thought posting....
Steve Stone....he won the CY one year with the Cubs...and then was the broadcaster with Harry Caray for years....I still laugh at this when I think of it, and maybe nobody else in the world was listening to the Cubs TV broadcast that day, because Harry was in the hospital, and the Cubs had invited Skip Caray to sit in for his Dad...it was a sweltering, very, very, hot day in Chicago...the Cubs booth had underseat heaters to take the chill off for Harry in broadcasting early and late season games...Skip and Steve commented nearly every inning about how ungodly hot it was...finally about the 3rd inning, Skip said something like "Man it's hot!...I'm getting out of here"...and Stone began laughing and confessed he had turned on Skips heater...I sat in my chair and laughed to tears...
Charlie Grimm was a good 1B...so was Phil Cavaretta….Phil lost some war years, so his career was not as good as it might have been...
The Cubs had the young Greg Maddux and traded him away....I don't remember who they got in return...also traded away Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio, only to have Brock be a huge star, and Broglio to crash...
Since you didn't list OF backups I am going to suggest two legitimate ones, and one only for his quirky antics in the hitters box...….
Hank Sauer was a power hitter, good for about 30 homers a season for a number of years..Andy Pafko was a good defender, and decent hitter...he was traded to the Dodgers, where most probably remember him....a good player....Hal Jeffcoat belongs on no all-time list except one of unusual hitting mechanics...and pre-pitch antics...
The Cubs had a revolving manager system for awhile, where each of the coaches would be "manager" for about a week...it didn't work, but then no one could win with the Cubs of those days...they had Leo Durocher for years...maybe the best ever when he had a competitive team...Leo gave up and went through the motions the last years...
I would add a backup 3B to the scrub list simply because he had a cool name....Ransom Jackson...he was just OK as a player, which fit the Cubs perfectly in those years...
another player who enjoyed some wacky fun, but at the same time was pretty decent was Moe Drabowsky...there are some stories circulating about him, I bet....
Sorry: forgot to comment on Cuyler....yeah, he was a good player...the writers portrayed him in a negative light because he was quarrelsome...with his teammates, the other teams, with the owners...I can't think of any personal nugget I could share...
your list keeps giving as I re-read...I see you mentioned Maddux and Pafko….Glenn Beckert….a career cut short...did Sutcliffe start out with the Cubs?...Kerry Woods...Andre Dawson...there was a quite good 3B that I think had most of his career with the Dodgers, RH hitter....the mind wants to say Bill Mattox, or something like that....did he start out with the Cubs?
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Post by inger on Sept 3, 2018 12:02:17 GMT -5
I had Kiki Cuyler's baseball card when I was a kid, but didn't know that much about him. I looked him up in Baseball Reference and couldn't believe the Pirates traded him after the 27'season. Why would they trade this guy? He's pretty good. Turns out, he sat out much of the 27' season with a contract dispute. Was even benched during the 27 series. Buccos traded him to the Cubs for Sparky Adams, a middle infielder with a lifetime .286 average and OF Pete Scott, who would be out of the majors after the 28' season. Thanks for the lists inger. Love reading them. Might even do one myself. baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/cuyler-kikiHi desousa! Thanks for your comments and encouragement. I'd be very pleased to read any team you chose to work up. Cuyler's situation in Pittsburgh must have been pretty ugly. I had read that he also had a "dispute with the manager" in 1927, but nothing more about the nature of the dispute... |
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Post by inger on Sept 3, 2018 12:19:48 GMT -5
Hey inger....good list and nice work....I am just going to post some random thoughts about the Cubs....and it will be a train of thought posting.... Steve Stone....he won the CY one year with the Cubs...and then was the broadcaster with Harry Caray for years....I still laugh at this when I think of it, and maybe nobody else in the world was listening to the Cubs TV broadcast that day, because Harry was in the hospital, and the Cubs had invited Skip Caray to sit in for his Dad...it was a sweltering, very, very, hot day in Chicago...the Cubs booth had underseat heaters to take the chill off for Harry in broadcasting early and late season games...Skip and Steve commented nearly every inning about how ungodly hot it was...finally about the 3rd inning, Skip said something like "Man it's hot!...I'm getting out of here"...and Stone began laughing and confessed he had turned on Skips heater...I sat in my chair and laughed to tears... Charlie Grimm was a good 1B...so was Phil Cavaretta….Phil lost some war years, so his career was not as good as it might have been... The Cubs had the young Greg Maddux and traded him away....I don't remember who they got in return...also traded away Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio, only to have Brock be a huge star, and Broglio to crash... Since you didn't list OF backups I am going to suggest two legitimate ones, and one only for his quirky antics in the hitters box...…. Hank Sauer was a power hitter, good for about 30 homers a season for a number of years..Andy Pafko was a good defender, and decent hitter...he was traded to the Dodgers, where most probably remember him....a good player....Hal Jeffcoat belongs on no all-time list except one of unusual hitting mechanics...and pre-pitch antics... The Cubs had a revolving manager system for awhile, where each of the coaches would be "manager" for about a week...it didn't work, but then no one could win with the Cubs of those days...they had Leo Durocher for years...maybe the best ever when he had a competitive team...Leo gave up and went through the motions the last years... I would add a backup 3B to the scrub list simply because he had a cool name....Ransom Jackson...he was just OK as a player, which fit the Cubs perfectly in those years... another player who enjoyed some wacky fun, but at the same time was pretty decent was Moe Drabowsky...there are some stories circulating about him, I bet.... Sorry: forgot to comment on Cuyler....yeah, he was a good player...the writers portrayed him in a negative light because he was quarrelsome...with his teammates, the other teams, with the owners...I can't think of any personal nugget I could share... your list keeps giving as I re-read...I see you mentioned Maddux and Pafko….Glenn Beckert….a career cut short...did Sutcliffe start out with the Cubs?...Kerry Woods...Andre Dawson...there was a quite good 3B that I think had most of his career with the Dodgers, RH hitter....the mind wants to say Bill Mattox, or something like that....did he start out with the Cubs? This was a great post from you, Utah. "Train of thought" posts are perfect as you reminisce about the things you recall...You did a much better job with this Cubs outfield than I did. How did I miss Hawk Dawson? I'll have to demote Pafko to AAA and utilize Dawson as the back up CF. If we can't keep Hack Wilson sober, he may even take over in CF on a regular basis. There is certainly room for Hank Sauer at AAA, he's very deserving. I dismissed both Grimm and Caveretta after having considered them, but they were borderline choices for me. I remember that season that Stone won the Cy Young Award with 25 wins. He decided to pretty much abandon all of his other pitches in favor of his curveball. By the end of the season, his shoulder was shot and his career was effectively over. He said upon retirement that he would do it exactly the same way again. He was a mediocre pitcher who had that one great season he could treasure forever. The seat heater story was a funny one. We had a used Subaru with seat heaters in it a few years back and I pulled that same trick on Ruthie on a nice summer day. Drabowsky was such an interesting character that I was hoping he could be added to the bullpen, just for the entertainment value. As it turns out, he started his career as a poor starting pitcher in Chicago with the Cubs. It was much later in his lengthy career when he excelled for three seasons in the Orioles bullpen and set a relief record for the World Series with 11K s in a game...The Orioles got him at just the right time in his career, I suppose. His lifetime ERA+ was 101, but in his 4 (total) years in Baltimore it was 140+. His lifetime record in Baltimore was 21-11 vs. 67-94 with all of his other teams. We may see Mr. Drabowsky later...He also had several decent to good seasons with KC...Maybe we'll see him twice... Okay, so my apologies for stinking at the Cubs OF...But that's why I ask you specifically for assistance, Utah... I was hoping you could help upgrade the rosters. I'll work harder when I get to the south side of town and start on the White Sox... |
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Post by desousa on Sept 3, 2018 12:36:26 GMT -5
Pittsburgh Pirates All Time Team
Starting Pitchers: Babe Adams, Ed Morris, Wilbur Cooper, Sam Leever, Deacon Phillippe/AAA Bob Friend, Jessie Tannehill, Lefty Leifield, John Candelaria
Bullpen: Kent Tekulve (closer) Roy Face (set up), Al McBean, Dave Guisti, Tony Watson, Ramon Hernandez, Rod Scurry
Catcher: Jason Kendall, Manny Sanguillen/AAA Tony Pena, Fred Carroll
First: Willie Stargell, Jake Bleckley/AAA Donn Clendenon, Gus Suhr
Second: Bill Mazeroski, Rennie Stennett/AAA Neil Walker, Johnny Ray
Third: Pie Traynor, Bill Madlock/AAA Aramis Ramirez Richie Hebner
SS: Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan/AAA Dick Groat, Glenn Wright
LF: Paul Waner
CF: Max Carey
RF: Roberto Clemente
Reserve OF: Ralph Kiner, Barry Bonds /AAA Lloyd Waner, Dave Parker, Ginger Beaumont
DH/PH Smokey Burgess
Notes: The outfield position was definitely the hardest to pick. I chose Max Carey at CF for speed and he was switch hitter. Bonds best years were with the Giants, so I tabbed Waner to play in LF. Clemente was one of the best right fielders I've ever seen, so he plays there. Ginger Beaumont was a pretty good player around the turn of the 20th century. I took Parker over Giles because he played more seasons with the Bucs. Kiner and Bonds were no brainers.
Pitching was tough because compared to a lot of franchises, the Pirates pitching has not been all that great. All five starters pitched before the 30's. Ed Morris hurled for the Pittsburgh Allegheny's. As far as the bullpen, not a lot to pick from. Tekulve over Face for closer, because Face can go multiple innings as a set up.
Catcher has not been a big position for the Pirates. Kendall had more good seasons with the bat than did Pena, but the latter was better defensively.
The starting infield was not difficult to choose. Wagner and Vaughan make up a pretty good SS position.
Always loved Smokey Burgess, so had to make him my pinch hitter.
Hard to figure where to rank the Pirates in the battle of the Original 16. My best guess is top ten, but bottom half.
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Post by utahyank on Sept 3, 2018 12:57:53 GMT -5
Pittsburgh Pirates All Time Team Starting Pitchers: Babe Adams, Ed Morris, Wilbur Cooper, Sam Leever, Deacon Phillippe/AAA Bob Friend, Jessie Tannehill, Lefty Leifield, John Candelaria Bullpen: Kent Tekulve (closer) Roy Face (set up), Al McBean, Dave Guisti, Tony Watson, Ramon Hernandez, Rod Scurry Catcher: Jason Kendall, Tony Pena/AAA Manny Sanguillen, Fred Carroll First: Willie Stargell, Jake Bleckley/AAA Donn Clendenon, Gus Suhr Second: Bill Mazeroski, Rennie Stennett/AAA Neil Walker, Johnny Ray Third: Pie Traynor, Bill Madlock/AAA Aramis Ramirez Richie Hebner SS: Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan/AAA Dick Groat, Glenn Wright LF: Paul Waner CF: Max Carey RF: Roberto Clemente Reserve OF: Ralph Kiner, Barry Bonds /AAA Lloyd Waner, Dave Parker, Ginger Beaumont DH/PH Smokey Burgess Notes: The outfield position was definitely the hardest to pick. I chose Max Carey at CF for speed and he was switch hitter. Bonds best years were with the Giants, so I tabbed Waner to play in LF. Clemente was one of the best right fielders I've ever seen, so he plays there. Ginger Beaumont was a pretty good player around the turn of the 20th century. I took Parker over Giles because he played more seasons with the Bucs. Kiner and Bonds were no brainers. Pitching was tough because compared to a lot of franchises, the Pirates pitching has not been all that great. All five starters pitched before the 30's. Ed Morris hurled for the Pittsburgh Allegheny's. As far as the bullpen, not a lot to pick from. Tekulve over Face for closer, because Face can go multiple innings as a set up. Catcher has not been a big position for the Pirates. Kendall had more good seasons with the bat than did Pena, but the latter was better defensively. The starting infield was not difficult to choose. Wagner and Vaughan make up a pretty good SS position. Always loved Smokey Burgess, so had to make him my pinch hitter. Hard to figure where to rank the Pirates in the battle of the Original 16. My best guess is top ten, but bottom half. nice list....this is a team with some brilliant stars over the years...but a lot of underperformance as a team, it seems.....that OF is very strong....and we have an all-timer playing now for the Yankees at 2B...  ….two of the best SS anyone has ever had... Pitching was not an overall strength, but Vernon Law was very good...also a big lefthander Bob Veale....not a criticism, but I would have Friend and Law as starters, simply because I don't know the old guys...thanks for the list... |
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Post by inger on Sept 3, 2018 13:37:18 GMT -5
Nice, desousa! I want to sit down and digest this a bit more later, but there are some terrific players on this team with some nice nostalgic touches. A nice mixof the old and new. Like my Cubs team, you struggled to find modern starting pitchers, though you found some nice relievers. I love the daring selection of the wild but effective Rod Scurry as a tough lefty who was the original blue print for Mitch Williams who came a few years later (not with the Pirates, of course...but remember him?).
I must have had 1,000 Donn Clendenon baseball cards. Well, maybe six or eight, but that was a lot relative to my collection...
I’m curious about Manny Sanguillen. I remember him as being very good, very nimble...how close were you to putting him on the MLB roster?...
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 3, 2018 13:47:28 GMT -5
Hello gentlemen -- look what the cat dragged in. I stumbled across this forum a little while back, and just observed for a bit to get the lay of the land. Then I saw speculation that maybe I had gone to that great stadium in the sky, and I sure didn't want anybody to think that -- I'm alive and well and all that good stuff. Although I won't be able to post as often as back in the day, a thread like this made me want to come out and play, plus I missed all of you guys. No greetings necessary, just act like I have been here all along and stepped out of the room for a few minutes to check on a souffle I had in the oven. As if I knew how to make a souffle. Anyway, I will add a few thoughts on the teams here and put up one of my own. Back in a flash.
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 3, 2018 14:00:24 GMT -5
On the Pirates squad -- Great job desousa. Like Utah, I also thought of Vernon "Deacon" Law for the pitching staff. He and Friend were nearly exact contemporaries. It seemed as if Law's best years were better than Friend's, but overall they came out in close to the same place in terms of WHIP and ERA+, although Law had a much better W-L record. He must have gotten better run support, I dunno.
Bill Madlock is such a strange case. Without looking it up, I really doubt any eligible player has won four batting titles without getting any serious HOF consideration. My recollection is that he was adequate at best defensively, with fair power for his day. He seemed to get in his share of scuffles, but he also had a humorous side -- I can remember him being one of the Philly Phanatic's top playmates, and his participation in the bubble gum blowing contest Joe Garagiola had. Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan are certainly in the running for the two greatest shortstops any one team has had. Mazeroski, for all of his lightweight hitting (yeah, there was that one horrific moment) was a magician at second and could turn the double play as well as anyone I ever saw.
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 3, 2018 14:10:48 GMT -5
Inger -- also a great post on the Cubs team, and thanks for making this thread. I do wish the likes of Jwild and Banfoulballs and Grandforks, to name just three history-minded posters, were around to comment. As for the mystery of Kiki Cuyler -- Utah touched on the situation about how he got negative press and was considered somewhat of a management problem. But his problems were with abrasive types like Donie Bush and Rogers Hornsby -- everybody had trouble with Rogers Hornsby. Not too long ago I read a bio on another of his managers, the great Joe McCarthy, and Marse Joe had nothing but good things to say about him. I would take his assessment over most any other manager there ever was. The only Kiki anecdote I remember hearing is that he was considered to be a very good singer who was in high demand at public functions. I know that when he broke into the majors, he was considered to be a phenom who could rank with the likes of Cobb and Speaker.
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Post by inger on Sept 3, 2018 14:22:14 GMT -5
Odd story, but the first time I ever heard of Kiki Cuyler was when the Beaver swiped a ball out of Ward’s den to replace a ball lost in a game. Ward had several signatures on the ball, including those of Cuyler and Lou Gehrig. The boys attempted to sneak another ball into the den with fake signatures Ward spotted the autograph of “Kiki Gehrig” while showing the ball to the bald-headed neighbor (was he Fred Rutherford, Lumpy’s dad)? I’m. It’s that’s right.
There. I didn’t greet you, but it’s nice to have you here, as always!!!
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Post by desousa on Sept 3, 2018 14:33:12 GMT -5
Pittsburgh Pirates All Time Team Starting Pitchers: Babe Adams, Ed Morris, Wilbur Cooper, Sam Leever, Deacon Phillippe/AAA Bob Friend, Jessie Tannehill, Lefty Leifield, John Candelaria Bullpen: Kent Tekulve (closer) Roy Face (set up), Al McBean, Dave Guisti, Tony Watson, Ramon Hernandez, Rod Scurry Catcher: Jason Kendall, Tony Pena/AAA Manny Sanguillen, Fred Carroll First: Willie Stargell, Jake Bleckley/AAA Donn Clendenon, Gus Suhr Second: Bill Mazeroski, Rennie Stennett/AAA Neil Walker, Johnny Ray Third: Pie Traynor, Bill Madlock/AAA Aramis Ramirez Richie Hebner SS: Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan/AAA Dick Groat, Glenn Wright LF: Paul Waner CF: Max Carey RF: Roberto Clemente Reserve OF: Ralph Kiner, Barry Bonds /AAA Lloyd Waner, Dave Parker, Ginger Beaumont DH/PH Smokey Burgess Notes: The outfield position was definitely the hardest to pick. I chose Max Carey at CF for speed and he was switch hitter. Bonds best years were with the Giants, so I tabbed Waner to play in LF. Clemente was one of the best right fielders I've ever seen, so he plays there. Ginger Beaumont was a pretty good player around the turn of the 20th century. I took Parker over Giles because he played more seasons with the Bucs. Kiner and Bonds were no brainers. Pitching was tough because compared to a lot of franchises, the Pirates pitching has not been all that great. All five starters pitched before the 30's. Ed Morris hurled for the Pittsburgh Allegheny's. As far as the bullpen, not a lot to pick from. Tekulve over Face for closer, because Face can go multiple innings as a set up. Catcher has not been a big position for the Pirates. Kendall had more good seasons with the bat than did Pena, but the latter was better defensively. The starting infield was not difficult to choose. Wagner and Vaughan make up a pretty good SS position. Always loved Smokey Burgess, so had to make him my pinch hitter. Hard to figure where to rank the Pirates in the battle of the Original 16. My best guess is top ten, but bottom half. nice list....this is a team with some brilliant stars over the years...but a lot of underperformance as a team, it seems.....that OF is very strong....and we have an all-timer playing now for the Yankees at 2B... ….two of the best SS anyone has ever had... Pitching was not an overall strength, but Vernon Law was very good...also a big lefthander Bob Veale....not a criticism, but I would have Friend and Law as starters, simply because I don't know the old guys...thanks for the list... I went back and forth between Friend, Veale and Law. I eventually dropped Veale because he was a starter only 7 seasons with the Pirates. It may make more sense to drop the Candy Man and pick Law, but they're very close in my mind. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 3, 2018 14:36:35 GMT -5
I wanted to submit my entry for the Philadelphia/Kansas City/Oakland Athletics, a franchise which has such a quirky history -- four very separate and distinct dynasties, in between which there was a lot of bad baseball. For the pitchers, I did not limit myself only to bona fide relievers to fill relief roles, since the age of the closer only takes in about half of the history of the game, at least in the American League. Also I did not attempt to balance out lefty/righty as you would if you were putting together a real team for a 162 game schedule. I figured these guys were good enough, they could handle what you put up against them.
First Base -- Jimmie Foxx/Jason Giambi
Second Base -- Eddie Collins/Max Bishop
Shortstop -- Bert Campeneris/Jack Barry
Third Base -- Home Run Baker/Sal Bando
OF -- Reggie Jackson, Al Simmons, Rickey Henderson/Mark McGwire, Bob Johnson
C -- Mickey Cochrane/Terry Steinbach
Pitchers -- Lefty Grove, Rube Waddell, Eddie Plank, Tim Hudson, Catfish Hunter, Vida Blue, Chief Bender, Eddie Rommel, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley.
I almost put Barry Zito on here -- his record with Oakland was really solid. It was between him and Rommel, and Rommel just outpointed him with longer-term steady performance. I also wanted a spot for Joe Rudi and Gene Tenace, but couldn't get them to make the cut. I thought the starting outfield was pretty easy to come up with. There is of course the issue with Giambi and McGwire, as there will be with others. Ultimately I decided, not without reluctance, to include them, but if anyone wants to make an argument that they don't deserve it, I think you can make that argument with good reason.
Bando and Steinbach, who I did see, and Bishop, who I did not, are rather under-rated talents in my book. A clubhouse with Reggie Jackson, Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane and Lefty Grove could be turbulent, to say the least. Throw in some skewed personalities like Waddell and Henderson and maybe Eckersley, and you would need a flotilla of reporters to keep up with the drama.
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Post by desousa on Sept 3, 2018 14:42:00 GMT -5
Nice, desousa! I want to sit down and digest this a bit more later, but there are some terrific players on this team with some nice nostalgic touches. A nice mixof the old and new. Like my Cubs team, you struggled to find modern starting pitchers, though you found some nice relievers. I love the daring selection of the wild but effective Rod Scurry as a tough lefty who was the original blue print for Mitch Williams who came a few years later (not with the Pirates, of course...but remember him?). I must have had 1,000 Donn Clendenon baseball cards. Well, maybe six or eight, but that was a lot relative to my collection... I’m curious about Manny Sanguillen. I remember him as being very good, very nimble...how close were you to putting him on the MLB roster?... The bullpen was the hardest to pick. They've had some good relievers over the years, but they didn't last long. Old Yankee farmhand Mark Melancon may have been the closer if he had been with the Pirates more than 4 seasons. I really had a tough time with Pena/Sanguillen, and at second glance, I think I made a mistake. Sanguillen should be the starter. I'll change my pick. I was at a game in Pittsburgh last season and got my picture taken with Manny at his BBQ joint at the stadium. He was very friendly, but could hardly walk. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 3, 2018 14:42:39 GMT -5
Odd story, but the first time I ever heard of Kiki Cuyler was when the Beaver swiped a ball out of Ward’s den to replace a ball lost in a game. Ward had several signatures on the ball, including those of Cuyler and Lou Gehrig. The boys attempted to sneak another ball into the den with fake signatures Ward spotted the autograph of “Kiki Gehrig” while showing the ball to the bald-headed neighbor (was he Fred Rutherford, Lumpy’s dad)? I’m. It’s that’s right. There. I didn’t greet you, but it’s nice to have you here, as always!!! Hey there Inger -- right back atcha. Oh yeah, Richard Deacon was Fred Rutherford, father of Clarence "Lumpy" Rutherford. I have some recollection of that as well. I also remember Ward talking about seeing Augie Galan play. You could learn so much from "Leave It To Beaver." TV trivia -- Richard Deacon was the first actor to play in two recurring roles on two different shows. Besides being Fred on "Beaver," he was more or less simultaneously Mel Cooley, a suck-up assistant to Alan Brady (Carl Reiner) on "The Dick Van Dyke Show." |
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….two of the best SS anyone has ever had...