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Post by inger on Sept 4, 2018 19:32:36 GMT -5
I am so happy to see Richie Ashburn get the starting nod in CF. His OBP skills, speed skills, and unbelievable ball-hawking make him one of the least recognized true greats of the game!
There has to be a reality to his ability to nab so many balls out of the air in the OF beyond having lead-footed corner outfielders flanking him...His fielding numbers are simply off the charts...
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Post by utahyank on Sept 4, 2018 19:37:23 GMT -5
Okay, I will put up my all-time team for the Philadelphia Phillies, who other than the Yankees are the team I know most about through the accident of geography. Feel free to lob grenades at these choices. Unlike the Athletics, the Phillies team is skewed much more heavily toward recent generations. That's because they stunk for most of their history. First Base -- Dick Allen/Ryan Howard Second Base -- Chase Utley/Tony Taylor Shortstop -- Jimmy Rollins/Larry Bowa Third Base -- Mike Schmidt/Scott Rolen Catcher -- Carlos Ruiz/Stan Lopata Outfield -- Chuck Klein, Richie Ashburn, Ed Delahanty/Sherry Magee, Gavvy Cravath Pitchers -- Grover Cleveland Alexander, Robin Roberts, Steve Carlton, Jim Bunning, Cole Hamels, Curt Schilling, Chris Short, Curt Simmons, Tug McGraw, Jim Konstanty. It was almost a coin flip between Lopata and Darren Daulton at backup catcher. Andy Seminick was also in the running. Del Ennis and Gary Maddox and Greg Luzinski get honorable mention in the OF. Backup at second is relatively weak. Going with Inger's five-year rule (which I agree with BTW) eliminated the likes of Dave Cash and Manny Trillo. Granny Hamner was excellent defensively, but couldn't hit a lick. Tony Taylor was one of the most beloved Phillies ever; you had to be there, I guess, but I wanted him on the team. I can remember once in the late 1970s going to visit the burned-out and overgrown site of Shibe Park/Connie Mack Stadium in a bad area of North Philly. Tony Taylor had just been there, walking through the weeds and rubble and no doubt seeing it as it once was. Seems he dropped by every now and then. For a team as historically bad as the Phillies, they have four no-doubt HOFers among the starting pitchers. Only two bona fide relievers here, McGraw and Konstanty. Not many people recall (Utah probably does) that Konstanty gave the Yanks some effective performances at the end of his career in the mid-50s. wow at this list....the first read I am somewhat in awe that the Phils have had that much talent wear that uniform....I will have other comments, but most of relate well to our native geography where we were born....I first heard about a high school kid in my native Nebraska while I was serving in the Pacific about 1946...a friend sent a clipping from a newspaper about this player who was tearing up baseball back there....of course that was Richie Ashburn....and while I never really met him, he was only one handshake away through mutual friends...I'm glad to see he made the all-time centerfielder....and then, down the road in Nebraska about 80 miles I'm guessing, was the home of Pete Alexander....about 20 years ago I visited St. Paul, Nebraska because I was traveling near there....I was appalled that there was no signage in the town or outside it indicating this was Alexander's home....I drove into town, and went to a business and asked why there was no recognition...he made a call to the small town's mayor and I went to his insurance business and pleaded Old Pete's case....the mayor sounded receptive, and said he would bring it up the next meeting....I hope they did something...heck a $50 sign would be better than nothing.... Most of you probably know that Pete was an alcoholic, and died an ignominious death...with not even enough money left to bury him....The Cardinals, to their credit, buried him and erected a brick monument to him... |
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Post by kaybli on Sept 4, 2018 19:58:12 GMT -5
I'm glad you enjoyed the Yankee nightmare team pipps! I looked up Andy Hawkins on baseball reference, those ERA's man, what a mess! Hope you're doing well! I will be going to the Yankees wild card game (as long as they hold on to homefield advantage. You won't see my ass in Oakland LOL.) How do you feel about this year's team?
Kaybli, you are fortunate you just missed the Yanks of the late 80s and early 90s. Padres territory. The Stump Merrill team had as its main starters guys like Jeff Johnson and Wade Taylor and Scott Kamienicki and Chuck Cary and Dave Eiland. On its worst day, today's team would have beaten those guys nine out of ten games. Little did we know that salvation was just a few years away (thank you for all eternity Stick Michael.) About this year's team -- sure, frustrated with the sloppy (even stupid) play and the erratic starting pitching. But I still think, as confused as they can look, that they have the capacity to get hot again and make some trouble in the post-season. I love the energy of the young guys and it took Aaron Judge about two weeks to become one of my all-time favorite Yankees. This is so much more fun than watching exorbitantly-paid old guys on cruise control. And I say that as an old guy on cruise control! I agree pipps! Despite the recent stumbles, this year has been so much fun! I'm greatly appreciative of watching winning baseball compared to so many other teams who are rebuilding. I am also very lucky to have just missed the late 80s and early 90s Yankees. I'm sure I would have added some players from there to my all time suck team if I did. And there's nothing wrong with being an old guy on cruise control! I'm sure you've worked hard many years and deserve it!
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Post by inger on Sept 4, 2018 20:48:31 GMT -5
I once watched a movie about Pete Alexander. Boy, he sure looked a lot like Ronald Reagan 🤔 ...
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Post by inger on Sept 4, 2018 22:43:10 GMT -5
Okay, I will put up my all-time team for the Philadelphia Phillies, who other than the Yankees are the team I know most about through the accident of geography. Feel free to lob grenades at these choices. Unlike the Athletics, the Phillies team is skewed much more heavily toward recent generations. That's because they stunk for most of their history. First Base -- Dick Allen/Ryan Howard Second Base -- Chase Utley/Tony Taylor Shortstop -- Jimmy Rollins/Larry Bowa Third Base -- Mike Schmidt/Scott Rolen Catcher -- Carlos Ruiz/Stan Lopata Outfield -- Chuck Klein, Richie Ashburn, Ed Delahanty/Sherry Magee, Gavvy Cravath Pitchers -- Grover Cleveland Alexander, Robin Roberts, Steve Carlton, Jim Bunning, Cole Hamels, Curt Schilling, Chris Short, Curt Simmoniis, Tug McGraw, Jim Konstanty. It was almost a coin flip between Lopata and Darren Daulton at backup catcher. Andy Seminick was also in the running. Del Ennis and Gary Maddox and Greg Luzinski get honorable mention in the OF. Backup at second is relatively weak. Going with Inger's five-year rule (which I agree with BTW) eliminated the likes of Dave Cash and Manny Trillo. Granny Hamner was excellent defensively, but couldn't hit a lick. Tony Taylor was one of the most beloved Phillies ever; you had to be there, I guess, but I wanted him on the team. I can remember once in the late 1970s going to visit the burned-out and overgrown site of Shibe Park/Connie Mack Stadium in a bad area of North Philly. Tony Taylor had just been there, walking through the weeds and rubble and no doubt seeing it as it once was. Seems he dropped by every now and then. For a team as historically bad as the Phillies, they have four no-doubt HOFers among the starting pitchers. Only two bona fide relievers here, McGraw and Konstanty. Not many people recall (Utah probably does) that Konstanty gave the Yanks some effective performances at the end of his career in the mid-50s. wow at this list....the first read I am somewhat in awe that the Phils have had that much talent wear that uniform....I will have other comments, but most of relate well to our native geography where we were born....I first heard about a high school kid in my native Nebraska while I was serving in the Pacific about 1946...a friend sent a clipping from a newspaper about this player who was tearing up baseball back there....of course that was Richie Ashburn....and while I never really met him, he was only one handshake away through mutual friends...I'm glad to see he made the all-time centerfielder....and then, down the road in Nebraska about 80 miles I'm guessing, was the home of Pete Alexander....about 20 years ago I visited St. Paul, Nebraska because I was traveling near there....I was appalled that there was no signage in the town or outside it indicating this was Alexander's home....I drove into town, and went to a business and asked why there was no recognition...he made a call to the small town's mayor and I went to his insurance business and pleaded Old Pete's case....the mayor sounded receptive, and said he would bring it up the next meeting....I hope they did something...heck a $50 sign would be better than nothing.... Most of you probably know that Pete was an alcoholic, and died an ignominious death...with not even enough money left to bury him....The Cardinals, to their credit, buried him and erected a brick monument to him... [ Sad. We had an ex-MLB player that was one of the town drunks when I was growing up. He only went 0 for 4 in his MLB career, and was really pretty nice to us kids, but that town drunk stigma is hard to erase... |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 4, 2018 23:48:48 GMT -5
about 1980 a cocky guy from Philly entered our extended family through marriage...a guy who knew everything about everything...and of course baseball was one of the things he knew everything about, especially he knew all about the Phils...we had already established that I was a Yankee fan, and he was coarse in responding to that.....and, I want you to know he irritated me...…….
he really irritated me, and since he was so much about money, I broke convention and bet him I could name the starting lineup for the 1950 Phils (the only time they had made the World Series) more accurately than he could...by that time I had maneuvered him before his wife and others such that he could not back down from what he had agreed would be a $50 bet....we put up the money with my sister-in-law, and each of us wrote the names of the starters at each position on a paper that we gave to her....
At that time I could have done a nearly perfect job of naming the lineups for both teams in the starting game of the WS from about 1936 onward...not perfectly because of an injury or whimsical start perhaps, but very probably would have won any such bet, unless it was against a real expert....the 1950 Phils I knew like a glove....Harold the Schmuck had no chance....one of my baseball reference books was the "authority, and I have to admit I enjoyed taking Harold's money....
Reflecting on that....the 2B for that team was Mike Goliat..I think he only played a couple years...George Sisler's son Dick was the RF, in another interesting tidbit...
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Post by inger on Sept 4, 2018 23:54:06 GMT -5
Great story. I know you’re not at all prone to braggery (braggartry?) so I know this had to have been a great opportunity to overcome an irritant...TOUCHDOWN...
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Post by utahyank on Sept 5, 2018 0:01:11 GMT -5
Great story. I know you’re not at all prone to braggery (braggartry?) so I know this had to have been a great opportunity to overcome an irritant...TOUCHDOWN... sorry if that sounded braggadocio.....I was afraid it might, so I apologize....it was just a story that came out, because he was such a puffed-up jerk....not at all like the usual people from that area, I'm sure....and I found I was still irritated about it....  |
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Post by inger on Sept 5, 2018 0:10:53 GMT -5
Great story. I know you’re not at all prone to braggery (braggartry?) so I know this had to have been a great opportunity to overcome an irritant...TOUCHDOWN... sorry if that sounded braggadocio.....I was afraid it might, so I apologize....it was just a story that came out, because he was such a puffed-up jerk....not at all like the usual people from that area, I'm sure....and I found I was still irritated about it.... Nah, you were fine. We’ve all had experiences, and if we’re sharing true experiences, there’s nothing wrong with that...I like to learn from others and let others learn from my mistakes... (: |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 5, 2018 0:22:58 GMT -5
sorry if that sounded braggadocio.....I was afraid it might, so I apologize....it was just a story that came out, because he was such a puffed-up jerk....not at all like the usual people from that area, I'm sure....and I found I was still irritated about it.... Nah, you were fine. We’ve all had experiences, and if we’re sharing true experiences, there’s nothing wrong with that...I like to learn from others and let others learn from my mistakes... (: ...I'll admit it was not one of my finer times....I took advantage of him....I thought at the worst I would tie him, because I remembered Goliat, and thought he might not.....almost makes me want to mail him back the money, except I don't know his address now since he passed a number of years ago....I do feel worse about it than I ever have.... |
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Post by inger on Sept 5, 2018 1:51:18 GMT -5
Nah, you were fine. We’ve all had experiences, and if we’re sharing true experiences, there’s nothing wrong with that...I like to learn from others and let others learn from my mistakes... (: ...I'll admit it was not one of my finer times....I took advantage of him....I thought at the worst I would tie him, because I remembered Goliat, and thought he might not.....almost makes me want to mail him back the money, except I don't know his address now since he passed a number of years ago....I do feel worse about it than I ever have.... You're viewing this through the wrong prism. It's garbage, and you have to dispose of any garbage that exists in your mind. You gave the man a fine professional lesson that was worth much much more than you charged him. Fifty dollars? Ptooey! Think how many times he may have kept his mouth shut in the future when someone may have wanted to nail him for hundreds of dollars, ever thousands. The lesson to be learn is that no matter how much you think you know there is always someone that knows more. He may or may not be in the same room with you, and he may or may not want to speak up and make a fool of you, but someone does know more. With all of the expertise you had on that subject, for instance, you probably didn't know the bat boys name...but someone, somewhere did... Take out the garbage, utah. Remember that happy ending that day, and your newly humbled relative. Think of the silence that you and the rest of the family may have gotten to enjoy through humbling him. Even if it was just once... |
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Post by desousa on Sept 5, 2018 5:22:20 GMT -5
Okay, I will put up my all-time team for the Philadelphia Phillies, who other than the Yankees are the team I know most about through the accident of geography. Feel free to lob grenades at these choices. Unlike the Athletics, the Phillies team is skewed much more heavily toward recent generations. That's because they stunk for most of their history. First Base -- Dick Allen/Ryan Howard Second Base -- Chase Utley/Tony Taylor Shortstop -- Jimmy Rollins/Larry Bowa Third Base -- Mike Schmidt/Scott Rolen Catcher -- Carlos Ruiz/Stan Lopata Outfield -- Chuck Klein, Richie Ashburn, Ed Delahanty/Sherry Magee, Gavvy Cravath Pitchers -- Grover Cleveland Alexander, Robin Roberts, Steve Carlton, Jim Bunning, Cole Hamels, Curt Schilling, Chris Short, Curt Simmons, Tug McGraw, Jim Konstanty. It was almost a coin flip between Lopata and Darren Daulton at backup catcher. Andy Seminick was also in the running. Del Ennis and Gary Maddox and Greg Luzinski get honorable mention in the OF. Backup at second is relatively weak. Going with Inger's five-year rule (which I agree with BTW) eliminated the likes of Dave Cash and Manny Trillo. Granny Hamner was excellent defensively, but couldn't hit a lick. Tony Taylor was one of the most beloved Phillies ever; you had to be there, I guess, but I wanted him on the team. I can remember once in the late 1970s going to visit the burned-out and overgrown site of Shibe Park/Connie Mack Stadium in a bad area of North Philly. Tony Taylor had just been there, walking through the weeds and rubble and no doubt seeing it as it once was. Seems he dropped by every now and then. For a team as historically bad as the Phillies, they have four no-doubt HOFers among the starting pitchers. Only two bona fide relievers here, McGraw and Konstanty. Not many people recall (Utah probably does) that Konstanty gave the Yanks some effective performances at the end of his career in the mid-50s. Happy to see you give Gavvy Cravath a little love. He was a home run hitter before the Babe showed up. Also, Ed Delahanty, Sam Thompson and Billy Hamilton might have been one of the best hitting OF's of all time. Sure, it was the 1890's, but still pretty good. Thanks for the list, pipps. |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 5, 2018 10:42:34 GMT -5
...I'll admit it was not one of my finer times....I took advantage of him....I thought at the worst I would tie him, because I remembered Goliat, and thought he might not.....almost makes me want to mail him back the money, except I don't know his address now since he passed a number of years ago....I do feel worse about it than I ever have.... You're viewing this through the wrong prism. It's garbage, and you have to dispose of any garbage that exists in your mind. You gave the man a fine professional lesson that was worth much much more than you charged him. Fifty dollars? Ptooey! Think how many times he may have kept his mouth shut in the future when someone may have wanted to nail him for hundreds of dollars, ever thousands. The lesson to be learn is that no matter how much you think you know there is always someone that knows more. He may or may not be in the same room with you, and he may or may not want to speak up and make a fool of you, but someone does know more. With all of the expertise you had on that subject, for instance, you probably didn't know the bat boys name...but someone, somewhere did... Take out the garbage, utah. Remember that happy ending that day, and your newly humbled relative. Think of the silence that you and the rest of the family may have gotten to enjoy through humbling him. Even if it was just once... thanks inger….I was surprised how cathartic it was to write that...I have been resentful for years, but last night I was able to forgive him, and face my own culpability in that affair...it was a clash of personalities, and certainly not a shining moment for me....enough of this...back to the Phillies... |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 5, 2018 12:08:30 GMT -5
Okay, I will put up my all-time team for the Philadelphia Phillies, who other than the Yankees are the team I know most about through the accident of geography. Feel free to lob grenades at these choices. Unlike the Athletics, the Phillies team is skewed much more heavily toward recent generations. That's because they stunk for most of their history. First Base -- Dick Allen/Ryan Howard Second Base -- Chase Utley/Tony Taylor Shortstop -- Jimmy Rollins/Larry Bowa Third Base -- Mike Schmidt/Scott Rolen Catcher -- Carlos Ruiz/Stan Lopata Outfield -- Chuck Klein, Richie Ashburn, Ed Delahanty/Sherry Magee, Gavvy Cravath Pitchers -- Grover Cleveland Alexander, Robin Roberts, Steve Carlton, Jim Bunning, Cole Hamels, Curt Schilling, Chris Short, Curt Simmons, Tug McGraw, Jim Konstanty. It was almost a coin flip between Lopata and Darren Daulton at backup catcher. Andy Seminick was also in the running. Del Ennis and Gary Maddox and Greg Luzinski get honorable mention in the OF. Backup at second is relatively weak. Going with Inger's five-year rule (which I agree with BTW) eliminated the likes of Dave Cash and Manny Trillo. Granny Hamner was excellent defensively, but couldn't hit a lick. Tony Taylor was one of the most beloved Phillies ever; you had to be there, I guess, but I wanted him on the team. I can remember once in the late 1970s going to visit the burned-out and overgrown site of Shibe Park/Connie Mack Stadium in a bad area of North Philly. Tony Taylor had just been there, walking through the weeds and rubble and no doubt seeing it as it once was. Seems he dropped by every now and then. For a team as historically bad as the Phillies, they have four no-doubt HOFers among the starting pitchers. Only two bona fide relievers here, McGraw and Konstanty. Not many people recall (Utah probably does) that Konstanty gave the Yanks some effective performances at the end of his career in the mid-50s. Happy to see you give Gavvy Cravath a little love. He was a home run hitter before the Babe showed up. Also, Ed Delahanty, Sam Thompson and Billy Hamilton might have been one of the best hitting OF's of all time. Sure, it was the 1890's, but still pretty good. Thanks for the list, pipps. Thanks for reviewing it, desousa. I tip my topper to you for your knowledge of baseball history. I certainly considered Sam Thompson and Billy Hamilton. If anything is a close call, I tend to shy away from players who played pretty much their entire careers in the 19th century because of how different the game was. No disrespect at all for those guys, I just find them a wee bit harder to judge because of things like no overhand pitching until 1893 and greater disparity between the very best and very worst players. Delahanty came around the bend into the 20th a bit more than those guys, and seemed to have been more of a legend in his time than they were, although they were clearly great players. It may well be that either of them is more deserving than, say, Chuck Klein, who got some serious stat-padding in the tiny Baker Bowl where he played his home games for the Phillies. It's all subjective and I am perfectly happy to have alternatives suggested. One thing I remember about Sam Thompson is that after he was dug out of years of obscurity to be elected to the HOF, he went in the same day as Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford, with their huge gallery up from NYC. So lost in the shuffle again. Had Gavvy Cravath started his career about ten or fifteen years later, he might have put up Jimmie Foxx-type power numbers. He led the league in HRs six times and is a seriously under-rated player. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 5, 2018 12:21:13 GMT -5
Okay, I will put up my all-time team for the Philadelphia Phillies, who other than the Yankees are the team I know most about through the accident of geography. Feel free to lob grenades at these choices. Unlike the Athletics, the Phillies team is skewed much more heavily toward recent generations. That's because they stunk for most of their history. First Base -- Dick Allen/Ryan Howard Second Base -- Chase Utley/Tony Taylor Shortstop -- Jimmy Rollins/Larry Bowa Third Base -- Mike Schmidt/Scott Rolen Catcher -- Carlos Ruiz/Stan Lopata Outfield -- Chuck Klein, Richie Ashburn, Ed Delahanty/Sherry Magee, Gavvy Cravath Pitchers -- Grover Cleveland Alexander, Robin Roberts, Steve Carlton, Jim Bunning, Cole Hamels, Curt Schilling, Chris Short, Curt Simmons, Tug McGraw, Jim Konstanty. It was almost a coin flip between Lopata and Darren Daulton at backup catcher. Andy Seminick was also in the running. Del Ennis and Gary Maddox and Greg Luzinski get honorable mention in the OF. Backup at second is relatively weak. Going with Inger's five-year rule (which I agree with BTW) eliminated the likes of Dave Cash and Manny Trillo. Granny Hamner was excellent defensively, but couldn't hit a lick. Tony Taylor was one of the most beloved Phillies ever; you had to be there, I guess, but I wanted him on the team. I can remember once in the late 1970s going to visit the burned-out and overgrown site of Shibe Park/Connie Mack Stadium in a bad area of North Philly. Tony Taylor had just been there, walking through the weeds and rubble and no doubt seeing it as it once was. Seems he dropped by every now and then. For a team as historically bad as the Phillies, they have four no-doubt HOFers among the starting pitchers. Only two bona fide relievers here, McGraw and Konstanty. Not many people recall (Utah probably does) that Konstanty gave the Yanks some effective performances at the end of his career in the mid-50s. wow at this list....the first read I am somewhat in awe that the Phils have had that much talent wear that uniform....I will have other comments, but most of relate well to our native geography where we were born....I first heard about a high school kid in my native Nebraska while I was serving in the Pacific about 1946...a friend sent a clipping from a newspaper about this player who was tearing up baseball back there....of course that was Richie Ashburn....and while I never really met him, he was only one handshake away through mutual friends...I'm glad to see he made the all-time centerfielder....and then, down the road in Nebraska about 80 miles I'm guessing, was the home of Pete Alexander....about 20 years ago I visited St. Paul, Nebraska because I was traveling near there....I was appalled that there was no signage in the town or outside it indicating this was Alexander's home....I drove into town, and went to a business and asked why there was no recognition...he made a call to the small town's mayor and I went to his insurance business and pleaded Old Pete's case....the mayor sounded receptive, and said he would bring it up the next meeting....I hope they did something...heck a $50 sign would be better than nothing.... Most of you probably know that Pete was an alcoholic, and died an ignominious death...with not even enough money left to bury him....The Cardinals, to their credit, buried him and erected a brick monument to him... Utah -- good for you for sticking up for Old Pete. Yes, he was an alcoholic, like his father and grandfather, and also an epileptic, which added to his battles. Of course he is known for being tied with Christy Mathewson for most wins by a NL pitcher. There are serious students of the game who rank him above Matty overall. I know he wound up doing things like playing on a King David team. BTW, there really isn't much in Factoryville, PA to commemorate Matty, although there is an exhibit at the local community college. Thanks for putting in a word for one of the game's all-time greats. |
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