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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 5, 2018 12:39:09 GMT -5
I am so happy to see Richie Ashburn get the starting nod in CF. His OBP skills, speed skills, and unbelievable ball-hawking make him one of the least recognized true greats of the game! There has to be a reality to his ability to nab so many balls out of the air in the OF beyond having lead-footed corner outfielders flanking him...His fielding numbers are simply off the charts... Inger -- Richie Ashburn and Stan Musial are my two favorite non-Yankees. I am old enough to remember his amazing flycatching ability. I do believe he could cover more ground than his more-or-less contemporary Willie Mays. No, he was not as great a player as Willie, nobody in their right mind -- or me either -- would make that claim. But Whitey Ashburn was under-rated even in his day -- you know, "Willie, Mickey and the Duke" -- they never added a line "and Putt Putt too." But he did manage to squeeze in a couple of batting titles among that tough competition, was always up there in stolen bases, and could hit foul balls in a way that would be prized in our era of pitch counts. He could rack up 10 or 15 pitches as a leadoff hitter no problem. It would help against a pitcher like Chris Sale or Justin Verlander whose innings you wanted to shorten. There used to be claims that one of the reasons he had such astounding putout numbers was because he was positioned next to a statue like Del Ennis. But obviously there was more to it than that. Richie was also an incisive and witty broadcaster for many years with the Phillies, I believe it was 35 years. The lines who showed up at his funeral were like something you would expect for The Babe. |
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Post by utahyank on Sept 5, 2018 12:42:58 GMT -5
Back to the Pirates for a moment, if I may....my mind is greatly diminished over the last 3 decades, but I remember a big stir about the O'Brien twins...in the early 50's I think...they never lived up to expectations, and the Pirates of that era were pretty woeful...there was a "first" associated with Bob Bailey that I can't state for certain...I know he got a very large bonus...large at that time...he surely wasn't the first bonus baby...Rick Monday was the "first" draft pick, I think...and of course, Ron Bloomberg the first DH....Bailey hung around a few years, and was decent if not the star they projected....someone probably remembers the deal with Bailey...
Did Dale Long get a mention, or am I confusing him with someone else?....
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Post by inger on Sept 5, 2018 13:52:37 GMT -5
Bob Bailey was an accomplished high school starvthe became one of the last of the bonus babies when he was signed for 175K.
Oddly, I remember that he was featured as Bob “Boom-Boom”
Bailey in my Weekly Reader in elementary school. Since I recall scoffing at the nickname because Bailey had just completed his fourth full season and had hit a whopping career high of 13 HR, I can pinpoint that to the 1967 school year, since Bailey connected 13 times in 1966. I couldn’t understand why he had that nickname, nor the adulation to be featured in that article.
Bailey did later top 20 HR four times after he wound up with the Expos with a high of 28, so he did have the rights to perhaps at least one “Boom”, if not two.
Just 189 HR in his MLB career. The remarkable part of his career was in that he appeared in 17 seasons. We. An take so much for granted as humans that we wind up glossing over a 17-year career without having the appreciation of how hard it was to maintain a skill set that long in the sport for that long and being one of what is still a select few to have hit as many HR as 189. When you think of how many players have tried and failed to reach that degree of success it was still a remarkable career.
Bob Bailey passed away fairly recently. Was it this past winter, or the winter of ‘17. Either way, .thanks for igniting that 51-year old memory of boyhood, Utah...I can now remember him as “Boom-Boom” Bailey...again...This time with more respect...
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 5, 2018 14:28:46 GMT -5
Back to the Pirates for a moment, if I may....my mind is greatly diminished over the last 3 decades, but I remember a big stir about the O'Brien twins...in the early 50's I think...they never lived up to expectations, and the Pirates of that era were pretty woeful...there was a "first" associated with Bob Bailey that I can't state for certain...I know he got a very large bonus...large at that time...he surely wasn't the first bonus baby...Rick Monday was the "first" draft pick, I think...and of course, Ron Bloomberg the first DH....Bailey hung around a few years, and was decent if not the star they projected....someone probably remembers the deal with Bailey... Did Dale Long get a mention, or am I confusing him with someone else?.... I remember the O'Brien twins, Eddie and Johnny, from my early baseball card days. Weak-hitting, good glove middle IFers who were known for their basketball accomplishments in college. Seattle U, if memory serves, just before another hoopster with some skills played there, guy named Elgin Baylor. Let's save him for winter discussions. I remember Dick Groat's baseball card also touted his basketball prowess at Duke. Inger, I recall Bob Bailey being called "Beetle" Bailey, based of course on the comic strip character. He was a highly-regarded third baseman when he came up with the Pirates and did become one of the early stars of the new Montreal Expos franchise. He had some good years with the Expos. I remember watching a game at Parc Jarry in Montreal in the early 1970s and Bailey, like "Le Grande Orange" Rusty Staub, was a fan favorite. Dale Long was of course best known for his consecutive game HR streak set with the Pirates. I think he was the first to homer in eight straight games? Whatever it was that Mattingly did later and I think Junior Griffey as well, and then the one that just ended at seven with Kendrys Morales. Long contributed a bit to the great Yankee teams of the early 1960s. The HR streak is I am sure the main thing I remember about him. And he had a flat-top, but that wasn't unusual in his day. Utah is right about Rick Monday being the first ever draft pick. I was thinking it was Rick Reichardt of the Angels, but what happened was that the bidding war for Reichardt upset the owners and they decided a draft was a nice way to put an end to this nonsense of big payouts. Little did they know...... Random baseball card Pirates for me -- Dick Hoak, Vinegar Bend Mizell, Rocky Nelson, Bill Virdon, Bob Skinner, Hal Smith, Alvin Orlando McBean, Elroy Face, Harvey "Kitten" Haddix, Gino Cimoli, Ducky Schofield, Roman Mejias, Joe Gibbon. |
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Post by inger on Sept 5, 2018 17:02:00 GMT -5
I missed Vinegar Bend by a season or two, but had all those other guys, though I’m not sure if I had the Pirates version of Haddix. I know I had him as an Oriole...I recall a slight resemblance to Don Knotts. I could imagine him looking for his fastball on a bad day, somewhat like Knotts searches for his bullet...
I could picture a Don Mossi / Harvey Haddix meeting as two guys that would appear as unlikely MLB pitchers...
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Post by utahyank on Sept 5, 2018 18:22:04 GMT -5
Back to the Pirates for a moment, if I may....my mind is greatly diminished over the last 3 decades, but I remember a big stir about the O'Brien twins...in the early 50's I think...they never lived up to expectations, and the Pirates of that era were pretty woeful...there was a "first" associated with Bob Bailey that I can't state for certain...I know he got a very large bonus...large at that time...he surely wasn't the first bonus baby...Rick Monday was the "first" draft pick, I think...and of course, Ron Bloomberg the first DH....Bailey hung around a few years, and was decent if not the star they projected....someone probably remembers the deal with Bailey... Did Dale Long get a mention, or am I confusing him with someone else?.... I remember the O'Brien twins, Eddie and Johnny, from my early baseball card days. Weak-hitting, good glove middle IFers who were known for their basketball accomplishments in college. Seattle U, if memory serves, just before another hoopster with some skills played there, guy named Elgin Baylor. Let's save him for winter discussions. I remember Dick Groat's baseball card also touted his basketball prowess at Duke. Inger, I recall Bob Bailey being called "Beetle" Bailey, based of course on the comic strip character. He was a highly-regarded third baseman when he came up with the Pirates and did become one of the early stars of the new Montreal Expos franchise. He had some good years with the Expos. I remember watching a game at Parc Jarry in Montreal in the early 1970s and Bailey, like "Le Grande Orange" Rusty Staub, was a fan favorite. Dale Long was of course best known for his consecutive game HR streak set with the Pirates. I think he was the first to homer in eight straight games? Whatever it was that Mattingly did later and I think Junior Griffey as well, and then the one that just ended at seven with Kendrys Morales. Long contributed a bit to the great Yankee teams of the early 1960s. The HR streak is I am sure the main thing I remember about him. And he had a flat-top, but that wasn't unusual in his day. Utah is right about Rick Monday being the first ever draft pick. I was thinking it was Rick Reichardt of the Angels, but what happened was that the bidding war for Reichardt upset the owners and they decided a draft was a nice way to put an end to this nonsense of big payouts. Little did they know...... Random baseball card Pirates for me -- Dick Hoak, Vinegar Bend Mizell, Rocky Nelson, Bill Virdon, Bob Skinner, Hal Smith, Alvin Orlando McBean, Elroy Face, Harvey "Kitten" Haddix, Gino Cimoli, Ducky Schofield, Roman Mejias, Joe Gibbon.
It is fun to muse through these names....Mizell...one of the greatest nicknames...Hal Smith..ouch….I haven't gotten over that homer yet...Face with the splitfinger called a forkball then...was it Dick Hoak?...why does my brain say Don Hoak….probably me...Haddix was good... |
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Post by inger on Sept 5, 2018 18:33:10 GMT -5
I think Don Hoak is correct...
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Post by utahyank on Sept 5, 2018 18:33:44 GMT -5
I am so happy to see Richie Ashburn get the starting nod in CF. His OBP skills, speed skills, and unbelievable ball-hawking make him one of the least recognized true greats of the game! There has to be a reality to his ability to nab so many balls out of the air in the OF beyond having lead-footed corner outfielders flanking him...His fielding numbers are simply off the charts... Inger -- Richie Ashburn and Stan Musial are my two favorite non-Yankees. I am old enough to remember his amazing flycatching ability. I do believe he could cover more ground than his more-or-less contemporary Willie Mays. No, he was not as great a player as Willie, nobody in their right mind -- or me either -- would make that claim. But Whitey Ashburn was under-rated even in his day -- you know, "Willie, Mickey and the Duke" -- they never added a line "and Putt Putt too." But he did manage to squeeze in a couple of batting titles among that tough competition, was always up there in stolen bases, and could hit foul balls in a way that would be prized in our era of pitch counts. He could rack up 10 or 15 pitches as a leadoff hitter no problem. It would help against a pitcher like Chris Sale or Justin Verlander whose innings you wanted to shorten. There used to be claims that one of the reasons he had such astounding putout numbers was because he was positioned next to a statue like Del Ennis. But obviously there was more to it than that. Richie was also an incisive and witty broadcaster for many years with the Phillies, I believe it was 35 years. The lines who showed up at his funeral were like something you would expect for The Babe. speaking of OF statues, pipp….did you ever see Sid Gordon with the Boston Braves? ...worst LF I ever saw as best I can recall... |
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Post by inger on Sept 5, 2018 20:03:41 GMT -5
Worse than Curt Blefary?...
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Post by utahyank on Sept 5, 2018 20:30:53 GMT -5
Worse than Curt Blefary?... are you saying that I just didn't see enough of Blefary?  ……….yeah, I think so...Curt is not on my mental list of maybe 5....there were those who couldn't run and those who couldn't throw....Leon Wagner had a chicken-flapping arm from LF that could barely get the ball in to the SS....Fergosi would go out to shallow LF to make a play at the plate...it seemed the NL in the late 30's through about 1950 or so had some slow guys stationed in LF...Ennis with the Phils...Sauer with the Cubs...Kiner with the Pirates...and Gordon with the Braves...if those four had a footrace, I think Kiner would win, and Gordon would be last.... |
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Post by inger on Sept 5, 2018 20:48:20 GMT -5
I also recall the horrendous throwing arm of Don Baylor even when he was young. I recall one particular play when he was an Oriole when he dug the ball out from the spot it ran away from him and and picked it up and threw, and the throw went backwards and he had to go back and get it again. It’s the only throw I ever saw go backwards in a MLB game.
Lonnie Smith was also comically bad in that he had warp speed, but would often kick, fumble, juggle, misthrow, slip, dive and miss, drop, just about any way to fail at damage control was his standard of operation...The Cardinals would have been better off to have a giant fly-back screen in LF than Smith.
Lou Brock was similarly error prone in LF, but not quite to the extent Smith was...
The Orioles has another guy that I always felt was the laziest OF I had ever seen, Sam Bowen. I never saw him run at top speed, it was like his throttle had a governor on it...He played a lot like late-career fat Andruw Jones, but when he was in his twenties...
Oh, and back to Blefary...Frank Robinson nicknamed him clank, which he said was the sound his glove made when it made contact with the ball...
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Post by utahyank on Sept 6, 2018 15:32:54 GMT -5
wow at this list....the first read I am somewhat in awe that the Phils have had that much talent wear that uniform....I will have other comments, but most of relate well to our native geography where we were born....I first heard about a high school kid in my native Nebraska while I was serving in the Pacific about 1946...a friend sent a clipping from a newspaper about this player who was tearing up baseball back there....of course that was Richie Ashburn....and while I never really met him, he was only one handshake away through mutual friends...I'm glad to see he made the all-time centerfielder....and then, down the road in Nebraska about 80 miles I'm guessing, was the home of Pete Alexander....about 20 years ago I visited St. Paul, Nebraska because I was traveling near there....I was appalled that there was no signage in the town or outside it indicating this was Alexander's home....I drove into town, and went to a business and asked why there was no recognition...he made a call to the small town's mayor and I went to his insurance business and pleaded Old Pete's case....the mayor sounded receptive, and said he would bring it up the next meeting....I hope they did something...heck a $50 sign would be better than nothing.... Most of you probably know that Pete was an alcoholic, and died an ignominious death...with not even enough money left to bury him....The Cardinals, to their credit, buried him and erected a brick monument to him... Utah -- good for you for sticking up for Old Pete. Yes, he was an alcoholic, like his father and grandfather, and also an epileptic, which added to his battles. Of course he is known for being tied with Christy Mathewson for most wins by a NL pitcher. wound up doing things like playing on a King David team. BTW, there There are serious students of the game who rank him above Matty overall. I know hereally isn't much in Factoryville, PA to commemorate Matty, although there is an exhibit at the local community college. Thanks for putting in a word for one of the game's all-time greats. yeah....a little strange that they both ended up with 373 wins...I suppose such a case could be made, since I think Pete pitched most of his games for lesser teams than Mathewson's Giants...certainly he needs to be in the top echelon of pitchers....personally, I don't consider Cy Young in the elite group despite all the wins... |
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Post by desousa on Sept 6, 2018 16:06:25 GMT -5
Utah -- good for you for sticking up for Old Pete. Yes, he was an alcoholic, like his father and grandfather, and also an epileptic, which added to his battles. Of course he is known for being tied with Christy Mathewson for most wins by a NL pitcher. wound up doing things like playing on a King David team. BTW, there There are serious students of the game who rank him above Matty overall. I know hereally isn't much in Factoryville, PA to commemorate Matty, although there is an exhibit at the local community college. Thanks for putting in a word for one of the game's all-time greats. yeah....a little strange that they both ended up with 373 wins...I suppose such a case could be made, since I think Pete pitched most of his games for lesser teams than Mathewson's Giants...certainly he needs to be in the top echelon of pitchers....personally, I don't consider Cy Young in the elite group despite all the wins... I agree about Cy Young, he was good and lasted a long time. If I was going to start a top ten list, I'd think about him, but would quickly move on. Petey and Matty are a different matter. You would have to give them both consideration. But from that era, Walter Johnson would have been the man if it hadn't been a guy named Addie Joss. If you don't know much about him, check out his numbers. Died at age 31, he might have been on a track to be the greatest ever. www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jossad01.shtml |
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Post by inger on Sept 6, 2018 16:47:38 GMT -5
I guess it’s time to speak up here. I’ve been guilty of this, and now I see others are following me and heading down the same path to what I believe is a trap.
All those wins, all those innings pitched, those low ERAs of many of those old time pitchers are stunning. They were however achieved by people who were performing an entirely different act in a sport that was played much differently than it is today, and even fifty years ago.
How do we sort through all of this to see who really is/was the best of the best as MLB pitchers? My suggestion is that we all look at the most reliable comparative stat available. I went to BR, and looked up the all time leaders in adjusted ERA +.
If you are dead certain that the old time pitchers deserve recognition, you will find that some do. It may not be the same ones you think, though.
The list is also dotted with relievers. If I knew how to post it on my cell phone, I would do that right now. I’m quite sure I can copy and paste it after I get home. Given that we haven’t completed very many rosters yet, it may behoove us all to review this list when reviewing our already created rosters, as well as before forging forward. And yes. I will agree with anyone who says that the old-timer’s numbers were hurt by pitching a large pct. of complete games on smaller starting staffs. For that reason. I would still give the old-time hurlers some extra credit when the numbers are close.
BTW: Desousa, Addie Joss is 13th overall on this list. He shows quite well...
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Post by pippsheadache on Sept 6, 2018 20:15:01 GMT -5
I think Don Hoak is correct... Mea maxima culpa -- I thought about that a few hours after I wrote it. Don Hoak is indeed correct. He was married to a 50s pop singer named Jill Corey, I believe. There was a Dick Hoak -- he was a running back for the Steelers in the early 60s. As The Beatles said, "I Should Have Known Better." |
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……….yeah, I think so...Curt is not on my mental list of maybe 5....there were those who couldn't run and those who couldn't throw....Leon Wagner had a chicken-flapping arm from LF that could barely get the ball in to the SS....Fergosi would go out to shallow LF to make a play at the plate...it seemed the NL in the late 30's through about 1950 or so had some slow guys stationed in LF...Ennis with the Phils...Sauer with the Cubs...Kiner with the Pirates...and Gordon with the Braves...if those four had a footrace, I think Kiner would win, and Gordon would be last....