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Post by kaybli on Jul 14, 2019 12:12:43 GMT -5
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Post by desousa on Jul 14, 2019 12:30:29 GMT -5
I think I just heard a mic drop. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jul 14, 2019 12:40:20 GMT -5
I have no doubt you picked the top five, Inger. I don't think the gap between one and five is all that great.
The eye test for me would put Cano as the best I personally saw. But I don't know that he would be the most valuable from a team standpoint.
Randolph was so steady, such an important team leader, so patient at the plate. McDougald was amazingly versatile, so skilled defensively at three positions. At least with the glove, he was much like LeMahieu IMO.
I never saw Gordon or Lazzeri. From any accounts I have heard of him, Gordon was invariably described as acrobatic or spectacular defensively. Joe McCarthy claimed that Gordon was the greatest all-around player he ever managed. Now I find it hard to believe that a guy who managed Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Lazzeri, Ted Williams among others could literally mean that, but it does give some idea of the esteem he earned.
People talk about Lazzeri's bat more than his glove, but anything I have heard from the many I knew who saw him suggests that at the very least he was quite capable. For his era he had unusual power for a second basemen, finishing in the top six in home runs four times. For the record, Gordon held the single-season AL HR title for a second basemen until Brett Boone hit 36 in 2001. And wasn't that chemically enhanced? My recollection is that it was.
Gun to my head I might take Gordon. But any one of them would do just fine.
BTW, Richardson was an outstanding defensive second basemen. Smooth as silk, never made a stupid play. When he came up, the questions were entirely about his ability to hit. But his defense was so good that the Yankees were comfortable letting Billy Martin go, Jerry Coleman retire and Gil McDougald be a full-time multi-position guy.
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Post by utahyank on Jul 14, 2019 12:45:57 GMT -5
I don’t think any of us ever saw Lazzeri play... Utah, what, if anything can you tell us about the defensive play of Lazzeri from tales you heard around the hot stove as a boy? Did anyone here (Utah on the spot again) get to see Gordon or McDougald play enough to speak to their defensive abilities? Hear any tales from dad or grandpa?... I recall some of the old time threads when we had guys like Grandforks and banfoulballs around where it seems to me that they both raved about the defensive play of both men... Gordon was smooth at 2B...really good at being in the middle of a dp turn...of course, Rizzuto always gave the perfect feed...he and Phil were good together.....he was quite good laterally to his glove side, and I remember him getting to some grounders in the hole that some other 2B of that time would not...I think that he would grade out well....some thought Doerr was a bit better, but given the whole package on both sides of the ball, I would rather have Gordon... Gil MacDougald was a touch below defensively, I thought, but certainly adequate....he was not as smooth around 2B as Joe was, but was decent there....I thought he was best at 3B, and it's possible being moved hurt him a bit defensively... I didn't get to see Lazzeri play...unfortunately, I don't recall Mr. Clarence Mitchell saying anything about him, or any of the Cleveland people that I got some good information from...I think he was good defensively, but he would have had to be really good (Alomar-like) to be better than Gordon, and I suspect the defensive edge goes to Joe... |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 12:55:23 GMT -5
lol, he just missed the cut. Yeah. We might have to see how well he matches up in left field... 👀 |
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Post by noetsi on Jul 14, 2019 15:12:53 GMT -5
My preference is for Randolph of those I have seen since the seventies. Cano certainly was a great player.
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 15:17:49 GMT -5
My preference is for Randolph of those I have seen since the seventies. Cano certainly was a great player. Noetsi, I think you are lost in the seventies Noetsi, the music she ain’t what she used to be You don’t understand what they’re saying You’ve given it every chance Noetsi, all you wanna do is dance... |
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Post by noetsi on Jul 14, 2019 15:18:41 GMT -5
I much prefer sixties music. I like fast uptempo music.
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 16:54:34 GMT -5
Moving on, Offensive WAR per season:
Cano 4.77
Lazzeri 4.20
Gordon 3.82
Randolph 3.41
McDougald 3.11
Randolph probably suffered the most by playing the longest, thereby regressing at the end of his career. Clarke would have scored 1.40 and Richardson even lower, which really knocked them out of consideration. They would have needed all-world defense to overcome that.
Finally, total WAR per season numbers, offense and defense combined :
Gordon 5.97
Cano 5.53
Randolph 4.71
Lazzeri 4.64
McDougald 4.51
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Post by chiyankee on Jul 14, 2019 18:28:47 GMT -5
I much prefer sixties music. I like fast uptempo music. inger never misses a chance to quote some Billy Joel. |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 18:54:21 GMT -5
I much prefer sixties music. I like fast uptempo music. inger never misses a chance to quote some Billy Joel. If I grow cold I won’t get sold I’ll be put on the back On the discount rack Like another can Of beans... |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 18:57:47 GMT -5
I much prefer sixties music. I like fast uptempo music. inger never misses a chance to quote some Billy Joel. Russ worked me over pretty bad in the game thread today. Laura might be a more appropriate song to quote: Here I am Acting like a ....... fool... |
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Post by chiyankee on Jul 14, 2019 19:07:15 GMT -5
inger never misses a chance to quote some Billy Joel. Russ worked me over pretty bad in the game thread today. Laura might be a more appropriate song to quote: Here I am Acting like a ....... fool... A rare cuser from Billy. I like that you usually quote the lesser known Joel albums, like Turnstiles & Streetlife Serenade. |
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Post by rizzuto on Jul 14, 2019 19:18:16 GMT -5
And there's always a place for the angry young man
With his fist in the air and his head in the sand
And he's never been able to learn from mistakes
So he can't understand why his heart always breaks
But his honor is pure and his courage as well
And he's fair and he's true and he's boring as hell
And he'll go to the grave as an angry old man
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Post by pippsheadache on Jul 14, 2019 19:37:32 GMT -5
I have read many times how much Gil McDougald was affected by the Herb Score incident, and I believe that this is reflected in his numbers. The seven seasons he played prior to his line drive essentially ending Score's career, only once did his OBP drop below .360. In the three years he played after it, his best OBP was .337. And he was only in his early thirties when he retired.
The others on this list had little or no decline phase with the Yankees. Cano of course left at his peak. Lazzeri had one subpar season and was dumped, in part because Joe Gordon was ready to go.
Gordon had one injury-ravished season in 1946 and was promptly traded to Cleveland. Likewise, Willie Randolph had a bad season and was traded. Only McDougald, in large part because of his versatility, was kept around through a multi-year decline phase, and that obviously detracted from his average annual stats.
I remember jwild and banfoulballs were, like me, part of the Gil McDougald Appreciation Society. Probably because we were all about the same age and watching him with very similar reactions.
Having said that, Lazzeri and Gordon are, deservedly, in the Hall of Fame, albeit not in the Ruth/Gehrig wing. Cano probably would be, but the PED issue very much clouds his legacy. Neither Randolph nor McDougald are in the Hall, nor should they be.
But as we noted before, any one of these guys could start on a championship team.
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