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Post by pippsheadache on Jul 15, 2019 7:46:08 GMT -5
If memory serves, Grandforks was doing a Top Ten Yankees at each position exercise. Some exhaustive research went into that one. A lot of people entered the fray. Hard to believe it was 13 years ago.
Lazzeri was more or less the consensus choice for decades. At some point after Gordon was voted into the HOF, assorted Sabrmetricians began looking at newly-developed metrics and suddenly Gordon started showing up in the debate.
Although Gordon played on some great Yankee teams, I think Lazzeri's association with Ruth and Gehrig and the early DiMaggio might have helped in his evaluation. Not that he needed help. He was a great player in his own right. But of course we're splitting hairs here.
As taciturn as Lazzeri was, he was a preeminent practical joker. One of his best-known stunts was pulled against my father's old favorite Indian Bob Johnson of the Philadelphia A's. Lazzeri had doctored a baseball, soaking it in water and making it a soggy mess. He managed to sneak it into a lopsided meaningless game and got the pitcher to lob a meatball to Johnson, who as the story goes took a mighty swing only to have the ball go nowhere.
I think the ploy was discovered immediately, but everyone got a laugh out of it. We could probably put that in the category of things that couldn't happen today. Sheesh, they wouldn't even let Wells wear that Babe Ruth cap he tried to get away with.
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Post by inger on Jul 15, 2019 9:07:25 GMT -5
Today, to soak a baseball you’d probably have to soak the entire umpire and his equipment bag. Not a bad idea...
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Post by rizzuto on Jul 15, 2019 10:49:48 GMT -5
Here’s another tidbit from the grand forks thread on the old board:
“Randolph (#3) will be tough to pass. While Cano will probably hit for a higher average, I'm not convinced he will ever match Randolph's OBP numbers (especially if they are adjusted for era). Randolph finished in the top-10 in walks eight times. Cano's career high for walks is 18. Randolph usually reached that number by May. Cano has more power, but Randolph had more speed and was a better fielder.”
We must remember that at the time of this post, Cano had only two seasons as a Yankee and MLB player. GF also made a good point about Lazzeri finishing in the top six in home runs four times.
I miss GF and Ban, just happy we finally have Pipps back in the fold. Kind of like Bobby Murcer coming back to the Yankees.
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Post by rizzuto on Jul 15, 2019 11:06:10 GMT -5
Another post from the past from the same old thread. This time from “huske”:
“I liked Willie also...agree he was a better fielder than Cano, but the improvement in fielding between his rookie and 2nd year for Cano was very large...he could be comparable to Willie in a couple more years. As for hitting...you almost have to rub your eyes..and he is doing this at 22/23 years of age. An age when even the good players are usually reaching AA or AAA.
Perhaps Snuffy was better than I gave him credit for.....he always seemed to make an out when a hit was needed...but I was much younger then...and, yes, the war years, and then for one or two years after, the level of play was down. 1946 for sure...maybe part of 47...I did like his nickname,”
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Post by utahyank on Jul 15, 2019 12:56:31 GMT -5
just to add to the conversation....I have been thinking about the description of Gordon as acrobatic...he certainly was very athletic and smooth in all his play around 2B...his turns of the double play were things of beauty, and could have been called acrobatic, I suppose....we shouldn't miss this...Rizzuto made every 2B better...he made Priddy better...he made Sternweiss better...he made Coleman better...Phil had a gift of timing on his feed to the 2B that seemed exceptional...in those days a runner from first tried to get in the way or take the infielder out in a slide...Phil never hung a 2B out to dry that I ever saw...I remember a round-table discussion over some beverages, and a couple of RS guys were arguing that Doerr was better than Gordon, and if he played with Rizzuto the RS would be better than the Yankees...
This is not to say that Gordon was not good...he was very good...I thought that watching shortly after the war, and the trade to Cleveland, that he made Boudreau better in that he was always in position where he should be to take the throw, or give the feed...
Willie was a good player...but he did not approach the top spot from the point of his offense....Cano is close, mostly from his offense...Gordon was better defensively...Gordon never failed to hustle...
I have always thought it was probably Lazzeri and then Gordon a close second...for awhile I thought Cano might be the best, but I don't think so now.....so for me it's Tony and Joe in either order...
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Post by noetsi on Jul 15, 2019 13:27:55 GMT -5
I think its hard to compare across eras. Players stress different things, pitchers are different etc. Many years ago I read a Sports Illustrated review of stealing in different eras, they had to do a lot to make them comparable.
Hitting, for example, has declined over time, most notably recently because of the emphasis on home runs. Players except higher strike out numbers to hit a home run, more of those would be hits in the past. Its even more difficult in defensive stats where qualitative factors are more important.
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Post by pippsheadache on Jul 15, 2019 13:39:26 GMT -5
Here’s another tidbit from the grand forks thread on the old board: “Randolph (#3) will be tough to pass. While Cano will probably hit for a higher average, I'm not convinced he will ever match Randolph's OBP numbers (especially if they are adjusted for era). Randolph finished in the top-10 in walks eight times. Cano's career high for walks is 18. Randolph usually reached that number by May. Cano has more power, but Randolph had more speed and was a better fielder.” We must remember that at the time of this post, Cano had only two seasons as a Yankee and MLB player. GF also made a good point about Lazzeri finishing in the top six in home runs four times. I miss GF and Ban, just happy we finally have Pipps back in the fold. Kind of like Bobby Murcer coming back to the Yankees. Nice to see something from the archives, Rizz. Maybe we should have an oldies thread. Then again, maybe not. I'm sure we've all made brilliant statements that in retrospect maybe lose some of their perspicacity. I too greatly miss the insights and discussions generated by some of those long-dormant posters. And being compared to Bobby Murcer returning to the fold is flattering, but far too kind. Maybe a more cold-eyed return comparison would be Sterling Hitchcock or Karim Garcia or Mike Stanley. Did you know that Luis Polonia had three separate stints with the Yankees? Talk about a piece of gum stuck on the bottom of your shoe. I really miss Bobby's sunny disposition in the broadcast booth. I was so happy when he returned to the Yankees after his exile in San Francisco (and Chicago too? Or was that later? Too lazy to look it up right now.) When he came up, he was one of the most highly-regarded prospects the Yankees had maybe since Mantle. Maybe because they were both Oklahoma boys. He had a really solid career although there were always faint rumblings that he should have been even better. Not from me. I always wanted him up there in a key situation. A class act in every way. His performance in the Thurman Munson game still gives me chills. Sorry for moving the thread off-topic. The mention of Bobby Murcer just brought back a lot of fond memories. One of many Bronx Bombers who left too soon. |
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Post by inger on Jul 15, 2019 13:41:34 GMT -5
Here’s another tidbit from the grand forks thread on the old board: “Randolph (#3) will be tough to pass. While Cano will probably hit for a higher average, I'm not convinced he will ever match Randolph's OBP numbers (especially if they are adjusted for era). Randolph finished in the top-10 in walks eight times. Cano's career high for walks is 18. Randolph usually reached that number by May. Cano has more power, but Randolph had more speed and was a better fielder.” We must remember that at the time of this post, Cano had only two seasons as a Yankee and MLB player. GF also made a good point about Lazzeri finishing in the top six in home runs four times. I miss GF and Ban, just happy we finally have Pipps back in the fold. Kind of like Bobby Murcer coming back to the Yankees. Nice to see something from the archives, Rizz. Maybe we should have an oldies thread. Then again, maybe not. I'm sure we've all made brilliant statements that in retrospect maybe lose some of their perspicacity. I too greatly miss the insights and discussions generated by some of those long-dormant posters. And being compared to Bobby Murcer returning to the fold is flattering, but far too kind. Maybe a more cold-eyed return comparison would be Sterling Hitchcock or Karim Garcia or Mike Stanley. Did you know that Luis Polonia had three separate stints with the Yankees? Talk about a piece of gum stuck on the bottom of your shoe. I really miss Bobby's sunny disposition in the broadcast booth. I was so happy when he returned to the Yankees after his exile in San Francisco (and Chicago too? Or was that later? Too lazy to look it up right now.) When he came up, he was one of the most highly-regarded prospects the Yankees had maybe since Mantle. Maybe because they were both Oklahoma boys. He had a really solid career although there were always faint rumblings that he should have been even better. Not from me. I always wanted him up there in a key situation. A class act in every way. His performance in the Thurman Munson game still gives me chills. Sorry for moving the thread off-topic. The mention of Bobby Murcer just brought back a lot of fond memories. One of many Bronx Bombers who left too soon. Nothing is off topic in this thread... |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jul 15, 2019 13:43:04 GMT -5
You are most generous, Inger.
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Post by pippsheadache on Jul 16, 2019 12:00:19 GMT -5
As this thread appears to be winding down, I wanted to throw out the names of other Yankee second basemen over the years who haven't been mentioned. Mostly for good reason. Some who gave us some decent to good years, like Steve Sax, Mariano Duncan, Chuck Knoblauch and Alfonso Soriano.
Then there was Homer Bush, Mark Bellhorn, Stephen Drew, Pedro Gonzalez, Fritz Brickell, Pat Kelly, Luis Vizcaino, Miguel Cairo, Luis Sojo, George Zeber, Bryan Little and World Series star Brian Doyle.
One second base oddity was Rey Sanchez, who had two very forgettable stints eight years apart, 1997 and 2005. Marty Perez, who was mostly an Atlanta Brave, played one game for the Yankees in 1977, going two for four. That team was so good even a .500 hitter couldn't crack the lineup.
Many more out there I know, but there's a brief bumpy walk down memory lane.
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Post by inger on Jul 16, 2019 18:14:01 GMT -5
As this thread appears to be winding down, I wanted to throw out the names of other Yankee second basemen over the years who haven't been mentioned. Mostly for good reason. Some who gave us some decent to good years, like Steve Sax, Mariano Duncan, Chuck Knoblauch and Alfonso Soriano. Then there was Homer Bush, Mark Bellhorn, Stephen Drew, Pedro Gonzalez, Fritz Brickell, Pat Kelly, Luis Vizcaino, Miguel Cairo, Luis Sojo, George Zeber, Bryan Little and World Series star Brian Doyle. One second base oddity was Rey Sanchez, who had two very forgettable stints eight years apart, 1997 and 2005. Marty Perez, who was mostly an Atlanta Brave, played one game for the Yankees in 1977, going two for four. That team was so good even a .500 hitter couldn't crack the lineup. Many more out there I know, but there's a brief bumpy walk down memory lane. . Warning to all: If you wish to vote for Zeber you will need to wrote his name on the ballot. The funny thing about this subject “winding down” is that there seems to be at best a split decision here. Perhaps I should send this to a poll...Sometimes I think I’ve made a decision on which man should be dubbed, then I find myself reconsidering. The remarks made by all who participated have been appreciated, and it’s difficult for me to find criticism with any of my final three, not to mention feeling a bit bad about the admonishment and elimination of Cano... We’ve been fortunate to be Yankee fans, that’s for certain... |
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Post by inger on Jul 16, 2019 18:39:07 GMT -5
I did add a poll. It’s at the top of the page. Participation appreciated! Thanks!!!
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Post by inger on Jul 16, 2019 21:23:48 GMT -5
I just did it. I voted. In the end I took the more overall effective player in Gordon vs. the longer-tenured players. I believe the evidence of Gordon’s defensive skill set to be strongest, and combined with his offensive skill set being similar in OPS+ to Cano and Lazzeri, Gordon won me over. I also feel that had he not served his country he would have been a great Yankee 2B for the last three of his years in NY. Who knows? He may never have been traded away if he had those three additional years and may have easily solidified himself in the position so firmly that we wouldn’t have even needed to think about it.
Keep the votes coming and please feel free to explain your votes. I find that interesting...
Man, I would have loved to have been able to to choose Willie. I just couldn’t do it, Willie. Sorry...
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Post by inger on Jul 16, 2019 23:21:22 GMT -5
First three votes went to Gordon, but Lazzeri is closing fast and it’s now 3-2. Make sure to vote for your candidate lest others decide for you!
I do know I wouldn’t have wanted to engage Lazzeri in a fist fight. Tough hombre...About 51% of me chose Gordon, perhaps 47% of me chose Lazzeri. The other 2% was split between Randolph and Cano. Split personalities come in handy at times...
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Post by utahyank on Jul 16, 2019 23:27:20 GMT -5
I consider it a virtual tossup between Lazzeri and Gordon, and finally cast the vote for Joe because the more I thought about his play at 2B, the better he seemed....I had never heard Lazzeri described as slow afoot, but Gordon certainly was not....however the vote comes out among those two, it will not be unmerited...
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