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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 19:53:45 GMT -5
So, as far as these 5 2B go, that’s about all I’ve got. I’d say it comes down to how important longevity is, how much you value defense vs. offense. Maybe it’s all about your perception or hero worship.
It seems to me that the best combination of offense and defense was Joe Gordon. He was the shortest-tenured. No one that I’ve ever conversed with and no article I’ve ever read knocks his defense. O’ve Pretty much always read things about the way Utah saw it. His eye-witness account is helpful to substantiate those reports.
I always thought I’d pick Lazzeri if all the facts were reviewed. My reading about him says he was a tough little dude that likes to fight. In fact, he preferred to box at an early age, but sort of fell into baseball. Like Mantle, he became strong at labor, in his case working in the steel mills. I’ve read anything from that he was a below average fielder to adequate with a few accounts calling him a good fielder. By most accounts he was acrobatic and could make some impressive plays. Perhaps he lacked a bit of touch, but it appears he provided plenty of pop to make up for it with his powerful shoulders providing the pop and intimidating runners that might think twice about sliding into him.
When Randolph played he struck me more as steady than flashy, though he was pretty rangy in his early years. I always knew he was good at getting on base and served his role in the # 2 hole of the batting order well the way the game was played in those days. He bunted. He made contact, hit behind the runner in hit and run situations like he was taught. An uncomplaining and hard-working player that I was pleased to see at 2B every day.
Cano appeared to be the all-time second baseman, hands down if you didn’t believe the defensive metrics. I didn’t. I believed. Perhaps he was the best. If you don’t mind knowing he cheated, if you can live with the fact that he appeared lazy at times, maybe he’s your guy. He smiled all the way to the bank. He wanted to lead his team, and when the players in NY didn’t pay him he respect he wanted he left. Maybe the players knew he was using, and made them disrespect him. Maybe it was because they could see that he had a bit of dog in him. All that makes him fall short for me.
Finally, that leaves McDougald. I’m sort of glad the numbers show him to be very good, but not the best. He played more 2B than SS or 3B, but still that was less than 600 games at the position. I stretched the rules a bit to give him a fair look. He deserved that. Someone mentioned earlier that he was a DJ LeMahieu-type. That’s a fine compliment to both players. Those are guys that are simply baseball players. They do their jobs. They don’t need accolades.
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 20:04:29 GMT -5
Russ worked me over pretty bad in the game thread today. Laura might be a more appropriate song to quote: Here I am Acting like a ....... fool... A rare cuser from Billy. I like that you usually quote the lesser known Joel albums, like Turnstiles & Streetlife Serenade. Billy was definitely channeling John Lennon on that song as you can tell by the musical arrangement and the slow tempo delivery. I think he was proud to be able to fit “the word” into that song also in honor of Lennon. Joel went through many phases in his career. Depressive, even suicidal? Got it! Upbeat? Got it? Beatles? Got ‘em. Influenced by (and even performing with) Ray Charles? Got it! Blue eyed soul influenced by The Righteous Brothers and Joe Cocker? It’s there. New love, lost love? Got it. Sixties throwback? Yep. Mass appeal? Joel would argue that he never cared, he was just fortunate that what he was doing at the time happened to be what the people wanted to hear... Sex, drugs, and rock and roll all in one song with Captain Jack... Oh well. I guess that post belonged in the music thread... But as an artiste, I must post what I must post when and where I must post it... (: |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 20:14:25 GMT -5
Russ worked me over pretty bad in the game thread today. Laura might be a more appropriate song to quote: Here I am Acting like a ....... fool... A rare cuser from Billy. I like that you usually quote the lesser known Joel albums, like Turnstiles & Streetlife Serenade. Thanks, Chi. I would imagine that you’ve become a fan of many of Neil Young’s deeper tracks that many don’t know well. Though I still enjoy the top hits Joel produced, I usually find myself hankering for those “other songs” that filled his albums and live performances. Many of those verses will get stuck in my head when I face longer drives (more rare than that used to be, but still frequent enough to Colorado Springs where there is about a 45 minute traffic gap that doesn’t require heavy concentration with a nice 75 MPH limit that I cruise at 79 MPH. I feel like a change up running up the road... (: |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 20:21:14 GMT -5
And there's always a place for the angry young man With his fist in the air and his head in the sand And he's never been able to learn from mistakes So he can't understand why his heart always breaks But his honor is pure and his courage as well And he's fair and he's true and he's boring as hell And he'll go to the grave as an angry old man Very nice, but I think you might have been a half octave off at the end. Let’s try it again... That’s a hard song to find a place to take a breath on, that’s for sure... Thanks for joining in to honor Billy the Kid... Out of Wheeling West Virginia Rode a boy With a six pack In his hand And his daring Life of crime Made him a legend In his time East and west Of the Rio Grande I get to cross the Rio Grande on occasion out here. I get a kick out of it, and usually think of this song when I do... |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 20:49:26 GMT -5
So, as far as these 5 2B go, that’s about all I’ve got. I’d say it comes down to how important longevity is, how much you value defense vs. offense. Maybe it’s all about your perception or hero worship. It seems to me that the best combination of offense and defense was Joe Gordon. He was the shortest-tenured. No one that I’ve ever conversed with and no article I’ve ever read knocks his defense. O’ve Pretty much always read things about the way Utah saw it. His eye-witness account is helpful to substantiate those reports. I always thought I’d pick Lazzeri if all the facts were reviewed. My reading about him says he was a tough little dude that likes to fight. In fact, he preferred to box at an early age, but sort of fell into baseball. Like Mantle, he became strong at labor, in his case working in the steel mills. I’ve read anything from that he was a below average fielder to adequate with a few accounts calling him a good fielder. By most accounts he was acrobatic and could make some impressive plays. Perhaps he lacked a bit of touch, but it appears he provided plenty of pop to make up for it with his powerful shoulders providing the pop and intimidating runners that might think twice about sliding into him. When Randolph played he struck me more as steady than flashy, though he was pretty rangy in his early years. I always knew he was good at getting on base and served his role in the # 2 hole of the batting order well the way the game was played in those days. He bunted. He made contact, hit behind the runner in hit and run situations like he was taught. An uncomplaining and hard-working player that I was pleased to see at 2B every day. Cano appeared to be the all-time second baseman, hands down if you didn’t believe the defensive metrics. I didn’t. I believed. Perhaps he was the best. If you don’t mind knowing he cheated, if you can live with the fact that he appeared lazy at times, maybe he’s your guy. He smiled all the way to the bank. He wanted to lead his team, and when the players in NY didn’t pay him he respect he wanted he left. Maybe the players knew he was using, and made them disrespect him. Maybe it was because they could see that he had a bit of dog in him. All that makes him fall short for me. Finally, that leaves McDougald. I’m sort of glad the numbers show him to be very good, but not the best. He played more 2B than SS or 3B, but still that was less than 600 games at the position. I stretched the rules a bit to give him a fair look. He deserved that. Someone mentioned earlier that he was a DJ LeMahieu-type. That’s a fine compliment to both players. Those are guys that are simply baseball players. They do their jobs. They don’t need accolades. I forgot to add (or subtract if you wish) that Lazzeri is said to have been uncharacteristically slow afoot for a second baseman. More catcher-like, in fact. He hit a lot of triples, but with the huge dimensions at Yankee Stadium they may have been HRs lost in Death Valley that were reduced to triples. He also stole a few bases, but even Ruth and Gehrig ran in those days, oft caught on the back end of busted hit and runs. Even with the Yankee power, they still tried to manufacture runs after murderers row had already batted. That’s the way baseball was played back then... |
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Post by chiyankee on Jul 14, 2019 21:09:02 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time ranking all these great 2B. I never saw Lazzeri, Gordon, MacDougald or Richardson play but it seems like I did after reading all the great posts in this thread.
I'm going to have to think about this some more.
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Post by kaybli on Jul 14, 2019 21:19:25 GMT -5
Congrats on 10,000 posts inger!
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Post by Renfield on Jul 14, 2019 21:35:14 GMT -5
kaybli with an Oscar winning photoshop montage!
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 22:02:22 GMT -5
kaybli with an Oscar winning photoshop montage! Lol. Ain’t that the truth. It’s unintentional, but it seems I was the first to that mark of 10,000. I don’t watch my post count. Obviously, I need something else to do. I hope some of you find the posts amusing at times, informative at others, and of course completely banal and bonkers, and stupid and happy and sad and... Mostly it’s an outlet for the artistic side I never got to live out. Thanks for putting up with me... |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 22:14:35 GMT -5
Kaybli, that first photo was from the cover of “Greenhouse Grower” magazine. It’s a trade magazine with a paid circulation of zero that lives strictly on advertising. The fellow behind the rim of my sombrero is probably the only friend I left behind in management when I tore them a new one (politely and professionally of course) on the way out the door.
It was quite a proud moment in some ways because I was able to outmaneuver some rich little millionaire boys (not pictured) that thought everyone would do only what they said because they were the owners. In the end I made sure they felt more pain than I did. How funny it is when people think you can’t survive without them.
If you’ve never had a “Take this job and shove it” experience, I will assure you that if carefully planned and executed it’s a wonderful thing to behold as the jaws tighten and then drop. When I think about it, I’ve had about three of those in my life...suppose maybe I was a bad employee? Nah, just reached my limit a few times. I think that’s why the employers were always so caught off guard...I’m very patient and compliant, until I’m not...
#Happy now, the best revenge..,
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Post by kaybli on Jul 14, 2019 22:16:11 GMT -5
kaybli with an Oscar winning photoshop montage! Lol. Ain’t that the truth. It’s unintentional, but it seems I was the first to that mark of 10,000. I don’t watch my post count. Obviously, I need something else to do. I hope some of you find the posts amusing at times, informative at others, and of course completely banal and bonkers, and stupid and happy and sad and... Mostly it’s an outlet for the artistic side I never got to live out. Thanks for putting up with me... You're the best inger! Funny and knowledgeable at the same time! |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 22:17:50 GMT -5
I think I liked the pink pants and the awards acceptance the best. Hated the tubby Prince Fielder body the most... Funniest was the rock breaking...Jwild waiting with the bat with that weird grin was the creepiest, but still hilarious...
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 22:33:05 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time ranking all these great 2B. I never saw Lazzeri, Gordon, MacDougald or Richardson play but it seems like I did after reading all the great posts in this thread. I'm going to have to think about this some more. Chi, I think that may be the nicest thing I could read about this exercise. I too, am struggling with what the correct answer is. Each of the top 5 has merits that would make them candidates to be the best on most teams. I’ve at least decided that, in spite of his ability, I can eliminate McDouglad. I don’t like to, but less than 600 games is not enough in this packet of players. McDougald is certainly the strongest candidate I can think of for the best utility player ever to grace an MLB uniform. I know that technically a case could be made for my arch enemy of all time, the hated Pete Rose, but that’s another discussion that perhaps we’ve already had and might need to have again with a deeper look... My lean right now is to Joe Gordon...I’m thinking that perhaps I should do more research into player peaks as well to help break this logjam. I never thought WAR to be that great of a way to measure players, but it does allow for offensive and defensive measurement to be combined, and I find that I like WAR per season much more than Carter WAR as a measurement device. Then we get into how long the peak years lasted, how many peak years required for the peak, and blah, blah, blah. Is it too much, guys?... |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 23:28:48 GMT -5
Okay. So I’m casually watching the Red Sox in extras vs. the Dodgers, which is just now going to the twelfth as the Sox leave the bases loaded. If you’re not watching, JBJ made an awful doofus base running play that might have cost them the game, though the Dodgers made the last out at home in the top of the inning.
In the mean time, I’m perusing baseball reference and I doing a quick and dirty look at player peak seasons. They didn’t make much difference here, since most of these guys had long Uankee peaks that included most of their seasons.
Only one player was help much, that being Gordon who had a six year peak die to military service with his return year, which was by far his worst in NY being eliminated. To me that seemed quite fair because the NEXT year, in Cleveland, once Gordon had his game back together he returned to his former skill level...
All of Gordon, Lazzeri, and Cano averaged between 91 and 99 RBI in their peak years. Lazzeri had an 11-year peak, which is very long, and Cano has all 9 Yankee years included as peak years. That left Gordon with only a 6 year peak, but military service, not lack of skill stopping the peak. Gordon and Cano both averaged mid twenties HR per season. Lazzeri’s average of 14 per season must be taken into context of the times. Gordon’s OPS crept up much closer to Cano at 125 by eliminating that one awful season.
The outlier is Randolph, who had the longest peak at 12 years. Randolph only averaged 5 HR per year, but he also averaged 20 SB and scored about 100 runs per year with his top-rated (among this group OBP)...
I don’t think peak performance seasons have changed my thoughts much. In looking at the fielding I did see that Randolph in particular showed a much higher range factor in his early years, up to age 27. Bit he was still quite good as time went on. He was the player who missed the most games in that 12 year stretch, averaging a group low 132, but he lost about 58 games in the strike of 1994, which cost him
almost 5 games per average season...
I don’t know much more than I did except that Gordon was likely the best in the short run...
You really can’t pick a bad player, and Randolph holds up very well against his more powerful fellow Yankees...
I believe that Cano should now be dropped. It’s simply because in a contest that is very close, I have a difficult time justifying allowing a player that used PEDs and proved not to hustle nor have leadership qualities to be declared the winner..,
That would leave us with Lazzeri. Gordon, and Randolph, but only if the great majority here agree. In my personal “ballot” that’s where I am...
Dodgers leading 6-4 in the 12th..,Still batting, now 7-4 with 2 out and first and third. Kill the Red Sox! This can take them back to 10.5 behind...
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Post by inger on Jul 15, 2019 0:17:32 GMT -5
Here’s something juicy for you guys that have been around and we’re on Scout in 2006 & 2007. I Googled Grandforks Best Yankee second basemen and up pops a thread where he posted a list the showed a top three of Lazzeri, Gordon, and Randolph, in that order. It’s a top ten list, and that was pre-Cano ranking. He mentioned in a follow-up post that Gordon would have been his choice if he hadn’t been traded to Cleveland.
If you Google Grandforks greatest second basemen, you’ll find a thread on Scout where he lists Gordon (the only Yankee on the list) as the number eight second baseman in MLB history, but comments that he doesn’t know if he’s giving Lazzeri enough credit for playing at the pre-renovated Yankee Stadium. That post was from October of 2006, showing that the choice is very close and Grandforks changed his mind somewhere along the way. Grandforks was one of the sources that had said that Lazzeri was an excellent fielder. I don’t know where he learned that.
In any event, there you have an opinion (or two) from a respected poster. I have no idea what, if any methodology was applied. It was good to hear from Grandforks again, though. I hope he’s well...
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