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Post by inger on Jul 13, 2019 23:44:02 GMT -5
This subject came up on a recent thread and I became more and more curious and interested in it. I decided to put in some light research time on it today.
In so doing, I have looked at 9 different candidates. I’ll start the thread off by naming the players I took a look at and have disqualified from contention.
Del Ennis was a good player from the pre-Ruth era that only played for the Yankees for three years.
Stuffy McInnis posted up a couple of terrific seasons during WW2, but his peak didn’t last long.
Alfonso Soriano posted some terrific speed and power numbers for the position, but was a noticeably poor fielder at the position that only played there three seasons for the Yankees.
Bobby Richardson. Because he played 2B for a dozen years for the Yankees with a sterling defensive reputation, many All-Star appearances, and some great World Series heroics, I have him a real close look before dismissing him. The numbers, offensive and defensive, are simply not there to support him.
My following posts will give a comparison of the five finalists I have chosen for comparison. Those finalists, in alphabetical order are:
Robinson Cano*
Joe Gordon
Tony Lazzeri
Gil MacDougald**
Willie Randolph
* Yes. I was tempted to disqualify Cano based on his known PED usage. I decided to go ahead with a comparison despite that flaw.
**I had to stretch the standards to include MacDougald because he moved around the infield so much. He played in the Yankee infield for ten seasons, and I have little doubt that he could have played any of the positions regularly for the entire time.
Naturally, everyone’s comments will be appreciated...
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Post by utahyank on Jul 14, 2019 0:27:40 GMT -5
Del Ennis was an outfielder with the Phils….was there another player earlier with the same name?
Gordon should not be penalized for only playing 7 years or so with the Yankees...he was legitimate, and could not control WWII or being traded in what was at the time major stars changing teams...
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Post by rizzuto on Jul 14, 2019 1:31:52 GMT -5
Over the past 117 years, 34 players have most commonly played the position of second base for the New York Yankees. Those with the most years at the position are
Randolph-13
Lazzeri-12
Richardson-9
Cano-9
Gordon-7
Clarke-7
Williams-5
Ward-5
Stirnweiss-4
Kelly-4
In future years, we may have to add Gleyber Torres* or maybe even (should the Yankees not resign Gregorious) DJ LeMahieu to the list. Obviously, there are two Hall of Famers on that list: Joe Gordon (.825 OPS) and Tony Lazzeri (.847 OPS). Cano’s numbers (.860) with the Yankees shall always be clouded by his association with Arod and Melky, as well as his own PED suspension. But, I suspect that even without steroids his numbers would/should/could have been comparable to Gordon and possibly Lazzeri...but that is a Bob Beamon leap of speciousness from me, to which many may actually agree. Alas, we shall never know. And, Cano may eventually make the Hall of Fame......but...
I have to go with the Hall of Famer Tony Lazzeri, who also played third and shortstop with those itty, bitty, pancake gloves. Another point, Lazzeri, Gordon, and Randolph were all punished by the old Yankee Stadium dimensions for right handed hitters. Gotta go with Poosh em up Tony!
*I have a feeling that Gleyber - barring injury- shall ultimately force me to change my vote.
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Post by desousa on Jul 14, 2019 5:57:54 GMT -5
I agree about Gleyber. Hard to believe he's only 22.
If you consider offensive WAR, the highest 2nd baseman are Lazzeri 48.6 (12 seasons), Randolph 44.3 (13 seasons), Cano 43 (9 seasons) and Gordon 28.6 (7 seasons). Of those 4, Randolph had the best defensive WAR at 17, Gordon 15, Cano 6.8 and Lazzeri 5.2. I would have to go with Randolph for his play as the most consistent on both sides of the ball.
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 7:35:23 GMT -5
Del Ennis was an outfielder with the Phils….was there another player earlier with the same name? Gordon should not be penalized for only playing 7 years or so with the Yankees...he was legitimate, and could not control WWII or being traded in what was at the time major stars changing teams... Oh, shoot! Del Pratt. Thanks for catching that, Utah. It was getting late, which was why I decided not to go any further than that opening post... |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 8:08:04 GMT -5
OPS+, in order
Cano-125
Lazzeri-121
Gordon-120
McDougald-111
Randolph-105
I was surprised to see that Cano had such a small advantage over the group. At .309, he was the only career (Yankee career) .300 hitter with Lazzeri next at .293. Gordon’s .271 is the lowest BA, but he and Lazzeri ties for second in SLG for the five men at .467. Trailing only the .504 of the cheating Cano.
At the same time. Cano had the lowest OBP of the group at .355 with Lazzeri and Randolph stop the group with .380 and .374.
Of course I’m not going to stop at offense alone since I’m big on D, but my feeling here is that while Cano is truly the most productive offensively, it’s not by enough to ignore how he achieved his numbers to separate him from Lazzeri or Gordon as hitters.
For those who feel as though players should not be penalized for PED use, instead perhaps we can take the tactic of suggesting a “what if” that Lazzeri and Gordon had played in Cano’s era and had the same advantage of using the drugs.
One thing quite forgettable about Lazzeri, whose career high in HR was only 18, is that he played just as baseball was emerging from the deadball era and he was third in the league in HR twice, and a legit member of Murderer’s Row.
We have three legitimate stand outs on the offensive side of the ball (using the word legitimately a bit loosely for Cano).
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 8:10:08 GMT -5
I agree about Gleyber. Hard to believe he's only 22. If you consider offensive WAR, the highest 2nd baseman are Lazzeri 48.6 (12 seasons), Randolph 44.3 (13 seasons), Cano 43 (9 seasons) and Gordon 28.6 (7 seasons). Of those 4, Randolph had the best defensive WAR at 17, Gordon 15, Cano 6.8 and Lazzeri 5.2. I would have to go with Randolph for his play as the most consistent on both sides of the ball. Great post desousa, numbers that I also looked at and want to get back to before the end of the thread in more discussion. Much appreciated! |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 8:19:57 GMT -5
Over the past 117 years, 34 players have most commonly played the position of second base for the New York Yankees. Those with the most years at the position are Randolph-13 Lazzeri-12 Richardson-9 Cano-9 Gordon-7 Clarke-7 Williams-5 Ward-5 Stirnweiss-4 Kelly-4 In future years, we may have to add Gleyber Torres* or maybe even (should the Yankees not resign Gregorious) DJ LeMahieu to the list. Obviously, there are two Hall of Famers on that list: Joe Gordon (.825 OPS) and Tony Lazzeri (.847 OPS). Cano’s numbers (.860) with the Yankees shall always be clouded by his association with Arod and Melky, as well as his own PED suspension. But, I suspect that even without steroids his numbers would/should/could have been comparable to Gordon and possibly Lazzeri...but that is a Bob Beamon leap of speciousness from me, to which many may actually agree. Alas, we shall never know. And, Cano may eventually make the Hall of Fame......but... I have to go with the Hall of Famer Tony Lazzeri, who also played third and shortstop with those itty, bitty, pancake gloves. Another point, Lazzeri, Gordon, and Randolph were all punished by the old Yankee Stadium dimensions for right handed hitters. Gotta go with Poosh em up Tony! *I have a feeling that Gleyber - barring injury- shall ultimately force me to change my vote. You helped me realize that I dumped all over poor Horace Clarke (as always seems to happen to Horace Clarke, by not even considering him before disqualifying him. I feel disgraced, and hereby consider him and disqualify him... sort of. I don’t feel there will be anything in his numbers to make the top 5 into a top 6, but I’m going to review them. My go to has always been Lazzeri, too. Let’s see if that changes along the way... (: |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 8:27:50 GMT -5
Del Ennis was an outfielder with the Phils….was there another player earlier with the same name? Gordon should not be penalized for only playing 7 years or so with the Yankees...he was legitimate, and could not control WWII or being traded in what was at the time major stars changing teams... Back to you again, Utah. I agree that a man should not be penalized for going to war, and also realize that he couldn’t help being traded. That puts another flavor in the mix here, yet it is what is. There may be a greatest of all time, and a greatest with minimum years of service crown that could be justified. We have sentiment. Numbers do not. The fact that he’s on the list even though he has the fewest years of service time of the group implies that I’m not penalizing him, I suppose. We’ll need to finish the story first to see how he fares. I have more stats and defensive discussion coming, and the rest of you on the thread are chipping in, too. I don’t care to prolong the discussion into eternity, but I’m also not rushing to conclusions here. I personally still question who deserves the most merit... |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 8:33:57 GMT -5
I don’t think any of us ever saw Lazzeri play... Utah, what, if anything can you tell us about the defensive play of Lazzeri from tales you heard around the hot stove as a boy?
Did anyone here (Utah on the spot again) get to see Gordon or McDougald play enough to speak to their defensive abilities? Hear any tales from dad or grandpa?...
I recall some of the old time threads when we had guys like Grandforks and banfoulballs around where it seems to me that they both raved about the defensive play of both men...
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 11:24:36 GMT -5
I have officially completed my review of Horace Clarke’s career and can now rule him out of the vote. His defense actually graded out well in many areas, but the complete lack of power and negligee OBP skills put him more in a strong competition with Bobby Richardson for the non-qualifying sixth position. In fact, he was better offensively compared to Richardson when his offense-suppressed era is considered and grades out better defensively by quite a bit.
Richardson has the trophies, the post season glory and the Wheaties box covers, but I’d take Clarke over him, and by quite a bit...
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Post by desousa on Jul 14, 2019 11:39:36 GMT -5
I have officially completed my review of Horace Clarke’s career and can now rule him out of the vote. His defense actually graded out well in many areas, but the complete lack of power and negligee OBP skills put him more in a strong competition with Bobby Richardson for the non-qualifying sixth position. In fact, he was better offensively compared to Richardson when his offense-suppressed era is considered and grades out better defensively by quite a bit. Richardson has the trophies, the post season glory and the Wheaties box covers, but I’d take Clarke over him, and by quite a bit... Clarke gets a bad rap. He was quite good defensively. I'd take him over Richardson. |
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Post by inger on Jul 14, 2019 11:44:38 GMT -5
Now back to our group of 5:
Not that I trust fielding stats, but they’re all I have at this point to compare with to judge how these guys were afield.
I’ve chosen to look at the unreliable fielding pct., range factor per 9 innings (rf9 for brevity) and defensive WAR. Since the fielding pct. and rf9 vary with eras I’m comparing the numbers with league standards for the player’s careers. I probably should have also done a comparison for just the peak years, but I didn’t.
First, fielding pct..
McDougald +.007
Cano + .003
Randolph +.000
Gordon and Lazzeri -.001
Incidentally, the disqualified Clarke was second best, at +.005
Rf9:
McDouglad + 0.16
Cano and Randolph +0.8
Gordon -0.3
Lazzeri -.30
The disqualified Clarke topped this list, and by a lot at +0.31.
Defensive WAR. Instead of taking total WAR, which gives a huge advantage to players with lengthier careers, I am using WAR on a per season basis, dividing career defensive WAR by the number of seasons:
Gordon 2.14
McDougald 1.4
Randolph 1.31
Cano 0.8
Lazzeri 0.4
Once again, Clarke steps up at 0.62. Too bad his offensive numbers were so bad...
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Post by greatfatness on Jul 14, 2019 12:03:25 GMT -5
Tony Womack!
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Post by chiyankee on Jul 14, 2019 12:05:27 GMT -5
lol, he just missed the cut. |
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