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Post by inger on Dec 20, 2023 21:35:09 GMT -5
Did Nettles do something to upset ownership or the front office that I wasn't aware of? Nettles wrote a book at the end of his Yankee career that was critical of Steinbrenner. I'm sure most of it was true but the Boss wasn't a fan and held a grudge. “Balls”, by Graig Nettles… |
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Post by Max on Dec 23, 2023 12:59:49 GMT -5
In my opinion, the most underrated Yankee is Allie Reynolds. I think he should be in the Hall of Fame.
Honorable mention to Mel Stottlemyre and Fritz Peterson.
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Post by inger on Dec 23, 2023 13:27:27 GMT -5
In my opinion, the most underrated Yankee is Allie Reynolds. I think he should be in the Hall of Fame.
Honorable mention to Mel Stottlemyre and Fritz Peterson.
Write in votes! I like it! Indeed those three need mentioned…I’m glad to see you new posters dredging this one up. More opinions is better!… |
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Post by qwik3457bb on Dec 29, 2023 13:38:56 GMT -5
If he hasn't been "written in" elsewhere, I'd like to put in a vote for Tommy Henrich.
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Post by 1955nyyfan on Dec 29, 2023 14:22:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure he would rise to the level of "most", but I always thought Brett Gardner was underrated, we'll at least underappreciated.
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Post by inger on Dec 29, 2023 16:24:12 GMT -5
If he hasn't been "written in" elsewhere, I'd like to put in a vote for Tommy Henrich. All write ins are welcome, even if they were voted on earlier… |
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 29, 2023 16:55:27 GMT -5
I'm not sure he would rise to the level of "most", but I always thought Brett Gardner was underrated, we'll at least underappreciated. Careful, this has long been a forum of the Church of Gardnerism, with many practicing and orthodox Gardnerites still in residence. |
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Post by inger on Dec 29, 2023 21:56:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure he would rise to the level of "most", but I always thought Brett Gardner was underrated, we'll at least underappreciated. Careful, this has long been a forum of the Church of Gardnerism, with many practicing and orthodox Gardnerites still in residence. Now, now Mr. Rizzuto. Let’s get back to your room and have a few more sips of the “special bourbon” brother desousa hazprepared for you. For you new people, nothing to see here. Nothing at all. We’ll offer you a bit of special bourbon at this Sunday’s mass and you’ll clearly see that it’s harmless and very tasty. The cost of the bourbon is included in your membership fee… |
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Post by grandforks on Dec 30, 2023 14:33:35 GMT -5
Inger — This is a great topic. Congratulations for creating this thread. It really seems like a lot of Yankees are underrated, even The Big Four to a certain degree, probably due to them being dismissed as Yankees. You seemed to do a great job of hitting most of the better candidates, and I see some posters wisely added a few others.
Willie Randolph was one of my three favorite players as a kid, and I used to argue with people about his value to the team all of the time. But I have to admit, the tables have swung in his favor, and he may be reaching the point where he is a tad overrated. But better that than the other way around.
Three HOFers that I’ll throw in are Whitey Ford, Joe Gordon, and Bill Dickey. I realize they are in the HOF, so they have been recognized as all-time greats, but it is their standing with the all-time greats that seems to be underrated.
I could of course be wrong, but I will happily argue to the bitter end that Whitey Ford is one of the ten greatest pitchers of all time when all factors and variables have been considered.
Bernie Williams became one of my favorite players during my early adulthood, and I love to present his HOF case to anyone that will listen. Right or wrong.
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 30, 2023 16:36:01 GMT -5
Inger — This is a great topic. Congratulations for creating this thread. It really seems like a lot of Yankees are underrated, even The Big Four to a certain degree, probably due to them being dismissed as Yankees. You seemed to do a great job of hitting most of the better candidates, and I see some posters wisely added a few others. Willie Randolph was one of my three favorite players as a kid, and I used to argue with people about his value to the team all of the time. But I have to admit, the tables have swung in his favor, and he may be reaching the point where he is a tad overrated. But better that than the other way around. Three HOFers that I’ll throw in are Whitey Ford, Joe Gordon, and Bill Dickey. I realize they are in the HOF, so they have been recognized as all-time greats, but it is their standing with the all-time greats that seems to be underrated. I could of course be wrong, but I will happily argue to the bitter end that Whitey Ford is one of the ten greatest pitchers of all time when all factors and variables have been considered. Bernie Williams became one of my favorite players during my early adulthood, and I love to present his HOF case to anyone that will listen. Right or wrong. When Willie Randolph was a Yankee, he had a reputation as a man who "never killed a rally." While certainly not a virtual truism, it was tough when all I saw as a twelve year old in south Louisiana were about ten televised games per year and two-day old box scores in the Lafayette Daily Advertiser. Nevertheless, it was evident to me that Randolph did all the little things you wanted in a middle infielder of the 1970s and early 1980s. Sure-handed, disciplined, focused, cagey, fast, and fundamentally sound, the only thing Willow did not have in his game was power. As a kid, it was preached to me that Yogi Berra was the greatest Yankee catcher of all time and only challenged in MLB history by Roy Campanella and Johnny Bench. But, when I looked at the numbers, it always surprised me that no one mentioned Billy Dickey, born in Bastrop, Louisiana. Dickey's numbers are right up there with the greatest catchers of all time offensively. In fact, B-R.com has Dickey with a career OPS+ of 127, Bench - 126, and Campanella and Berra at 125. Of course, defensively, Berra always credited Dickey as having taught him how to catch. Bill Dickey is indeed a Hall of Famer but he is also underrated. As I have aged and the Yankees' last dynasty years have fallen into memory, Bernie Williams' value has shone in my eyes in a way that it did not while the mild-mannered, soft-spoken Puerta Rican was actually patrolling centerfield and batting clean-up for New York. To think that the Yankees nearly allowed Williams to sign as a free agent with the Red Sox! Williams played in an era of steroid users and growth hormone abusers, when so many average players' slugging and power numbers were artificially inflated. Bernie's career line of .297/.381/.477/.858 would be a boon for the Yankees' current roster, yet his .477 slugging seems modest to the sometimes upper deck shots he hit with that quick, beautiful, sharp click off his bat. Bernie's lifetime OPS+ is 125. From the right side of the plate, Bernie's was stellar: .308/.397/.503/.900. Here is a pleasant factoid: Bernie Williams' OPS at home vs. away: exactly the same at .858. Though I was often critical of the routes Bernie sometimes took, his meager arm strength, and the occasional late jump, there is a reason Paul O'Neill could shade closer to the right field line: Bernie would out-run any mistakes and clean-up whatever the other two outfielders couldn't reach. Watching Bernie go from first to home in Anaheim from the vantage of being seated behind home plate was like watching a thoroughbred rounding the last turn at Belmont. Dirt flying. Knees high. Long, graceful strides. Bernie was thrilling to watch up close. |
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Post by grandforks on Dec 30, 2023 17:05:19 GMT -5
This may be poor form, but I’m going to rip off a post I made earlier today on Pinstripe Alley in their comments section of their top 100 Yankees series. I’m so lazy I’m not going to bother editing it for possible spelling or grammatical mistakes, so apologies if there are some. Thank goodness for copy and paste.
Since Qwik nominated Tommy Henrich yesterday, I thought I’d throw this in here.
This ranking is 10-12 spots too low. As heartless as it may seem, you can’t give a player extra-credit due to injuries, that is part of the player. But it is unseemly not to give a player credit for having served in WWII. That was completely out of the control of the player. With those missing War years, he probably exceeds 50 WAR — a “stat” that the rankers for this list obviously value.
Henrich obviously was adjusting back to Major League Baseball in 1946, posting his lowest OPS+ (113) since his injury-plagued year in 1939. Those two season were the only seasons he posted an OPS+ lower than 120.
His career high of 31 HRs may seem modest, but he played in a time of cavernous ball parks. From 1946-49, only seven different players hit at least 30 HRs in one season in the American League. In 2021 alone, 27 players reached that mark in the American League. Ralph Kiner led the NL in home runs in 1946 with 23. Five players from the 2019 Yankees exceeded that total, including Brett Gardner and DJ LeMahieu.
Henrich’s best run was 1947-49.
1947 — Finished 3rd in OPS, behind Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio.
1948 — Finished 4th in OPS, again behind Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. The other player was Lou Boudreau. It would be a vast understatement that Boudreau had a career year that season. He hit .403 on the road and had the second-highest road OPS+ (213) of any shortstop in Major League history.
1949 — Finished 2nd in OPS to Ted Williams. DiMaggio had the heel injury so he didn’t have enough plate appearances to qualify.
The only players to top Henrich in OPS during those three seasons were two of the absolute upper-tier players in Baseball history and a player that arguably had one of the five greatest seasons at his position in Baseball history.
Henrich was a player noted for rising to the occasion during pivotal moments, was highly regarded by his fellow players (DiMaggio once said that Henrich was the smartest baseball player he ever played with), and his defensive reputation probably places him with the 30 best defensive right fielders of all time.
Henrich being regarded as a supporting player on the Yankees just shows how stacked that team was and why they won eight pennants and seven World Championships during his 11 seasons. Because Tommy Henrich was a star by any measure.
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Post by inger on Dec 30, 2023 19:46:43 GMT -5
Nothing “poor form” about double usage of brilliant writing… grandforks |
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Post by kaybli on Dec 30, 2023 19:59:56 GMT -5
Inger — This is a great topic. Congratulations for creating this thread. It really seems like a lot of Yankees are underrated, even The Big Four to a certain degree, probably due to them being dismissed as Yankees. You seemed to do a great job of hitting most of the better candidates, and I see some posters wisely added a few others. Willie Randolph was one of my three favorite players as a kid, and I used to argue with people about his value to the team all of the time. But I have to admit, the tables have swung in his favor, and he may be reaching the point where he is a tad overrated. But better that than the other way around. Three HOFers that I’ll throw in are Whitey Ford, Joe Gordon, and Bill Dickey. I realize they are in the HOF, so they have been recognized as all-time greats, but it is their standing with the all-time greats that seems to be underrated. I could of course be wrong, but I will happily argue to the bitter end that Whitey Ford is one of the ten greatest pitchers of all time when all factors and variables have been considered. Bernie Williams became one of my favorite players during my early adulthood, and I love to present his HOF case to anyone that will listen. Right or wrong. When Willie Randolph was a Yankee, he had a reputation as a man who "never killed a rally." While certainly not a virtual truism, it was tough when all I saw as a twelve year old in south Louisiana were about ten televised games per year and two-day old box scores in the Lafayette Daily Advertiser. Nevertheless, it was evident to me that Randolph did all the little things you wanted in a middle infielder of the 1970s and early 1980s. Sure-handed, disciplined, focused, cagey, fast, and fundamentally sound, the only thing Willow did not have in his game was power. As a kid, it was preached to me that Yogi Berra was the greatest Yankee catcher of all time and only challenged in MLB history by Roy Campanella and Johnny Bench. But, when I looked at the numbers, it always surprised me that no one mentioned Billy Dickey, born in Bastrop, Louisiana. Dickey's numbers are right up there with the greatest catchers of all time offensively. In fact, B-R.com has Dickey with a career OPS+ of 127, Bench - 126, and Campanella and Berra at 125. Of course, defensively, Berra always credited Dickey as having taught him how to catch. Bill Dickey is indeed a Hall of Famer but he is also underrated. As I have aged and the Yankees' last dynasty years have fallen into memory, Bernie Williams' value has shone in my eyes in a way that it did not while the mild-mannered, soft-spoken Puerta Rican was actually patrolling centerfield and batting clean-up for New York. To think that the Yankees nearly allowed Williams to sign as a free agent with the Red Sox! Williams played in an era of steroid users and growth hormone abusers, when so many average players' slugging and power numbers were artificially inflated. Bernie's career line of .297/.381/.477/.858 would be a boon for the Yankees' current roster, yet his .477 slugging seems modest to the sometimes upper deck shots he hit with that quick, beautiful, sharp click off his bat. Bernie's lifetime OPS+ is 125. From the right side of the plate, Bernie's was stellar: .308/.397/.503/.900. Here is a pleasant factoid: Bernie Williams' OPS at home vs. away: exactly the same at .858. Though I was often critical of the routes Bernie sometimes took, his meager arm strength, and the occasional late jump, there is a reason Paul O'Neill could shade closer to the right field line: Bernie would out-run any mistakes and clean-up whatever the other two outfielders couldn't reach. Watching Bernie go from first to home in Anaheim from the vantage of being seated behind home plate was like watching a thoroughbred rounding the last turn at Belmont. Dirt flying. Knees high. Long, graceful strides. Bernie was thrilling to watch up close. Great post rizz! |
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Post by kaybli on Dec 30, 2023 20:01:16 GMT -5
This may be poor form, but I’m going to rip off a post I made earlier today on Pinstripe Alley in their comments section of their top 100 Yankees series. I’m so lazy I’m not going to bother editing it for possible spelling or grammatical mistakes, so apologies if there are some. Thank goodness for copy and paste. Since Qwik nominated Tommy Henrich yesterday, I thought I’d throw this in here. This ranking is 10-12 spots too low. As heartless as it may seem, you can’t give a player extra-credit due to injuries, that is part of the player. But it is unseemly not to give a player credit for having served in WWII. That was completely out of the control of the player. With those missing War years, he probably exceeds 50 WAR — a “stat” that the rankers for this list obviously value. Henrich obviously was adjusting back to Major League Baseball in 1946, posting his lowest OPS+ (113) since his injury-plagued year in 1939. Those two season were the only seasons he posted an OPS+ lower than 120. His career high of 31 HRs may seem modest, but he played in a time of cavernous ball parks. From 1946-49, only seven different players hit at least 30 HRs in one season in the American League. In 2021 alone, 27 players reached that mark in the American League. Ralph Kiner led the NL in home runs in 1946 with 23. Five players from the 2019 Yankees exceeded that total, including Brett Gardner and DJ LeMahieu. Henrich’s best run was 1947-49. 1947 — Finished 3rd in OPS, behind Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. 1948 — Finished 4th in OPS, again behind Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. The other player was Lou Boudreau. It would be a vast understatement that Boudreau had a career year that season. He hit .403 on the road and had the second-highest road OPS+ (213) of any shortstop in Major League history. 1949 — Finished 2nd in OPS to Ted Williams. DiMaggio had the heel injury so he didn’t have enough plate appearances to qualify. The only players to top Henrich in OPS during those three seasons were two of the absolute upper-tier players in Baseball history and a player that arguably had one of the five greatest seasons at his position in Baseball history. Henrich was a player noted for rising to the occasion during pivotal moments, was highly regarded by his fellow players (DiMaggio once said that Henrich was the smartest baseball player he ever played with), and his defensive reputation probably places him with the 30 best defensive right fielders of all time. Henrich being regarded as a supporting player on the Yankees just shows how stacked that team was and why they won eight pennants and seven World Championships during his 11 seasons. Because Tommy Henrich was a star by any measure. Awesome post grandforks! I didn't know much about Henrich so this was very informative to me. |
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Post by grandforks on Dec 30, 2023 20:38:52 GMT -5
Rizzuto:
As I have aged and the Yankees' last dynasty years have fallen into memory, Bernie Williams' value has shone in my eyes in a way that it did not while the mild-mannered, soft-spoken Puerta Rican was actually patrolling centerfield and batting clean-up for New York. To think that the Yankees nearly allowed Williams to sign as a free agent with the Red Sox!
Williams played in an era of steroid users and growth hormone abusers, when so many average players' slugging and power numbers were artificially inflated. Bernie's career line of .297/.381/.477/.858 would be a boon for the Yankees' current roster, yet his .477 slugging seems modest to the sometimes upper deck shots he hit with that quick, beautiful, sharp click off his bat. Bernie's lifetime OPS+ is 125. From the right side of the plate, Bernie's was stellar: .308/.397/.503/.900. Here is a pleasant factoid: Bernie Williams' OPS at home vs. away: exactly the same at .858.
Though I was often critical of the routes Bernie sometimes took, his meager arm strength, and the occasional late jump, there is a reason Paul O'Neill could shade closer to the right field line: Bernie would out-run any mistakes and clean-up whatever the other two outfielders couldn't reach. Watching Bernie go from first to home in Anaheim from the vantage of being seated behind home plate was like watching a thoroughbred rounding the last turn at Belmont. Dirt flying. Knees high. Long, graceful strides. Bernie was thrilling to watch up close. [/quote]
Great summary of Dickey and Bernie, Riz.
It took Bernie a couple strides to get going, but once he did…
Wow.
He did take some circuitous routes to the ball in center, but he usually got there due to his speed, like you said. Such a fun player to watch play. And who can ever forget the fricking display he put on in both the ALDS and ALCS in 1996? He really kicked the beginning of that dynasty into gear.
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