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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 31, 2023 10:23:07 GMT -5
This may be poor form, but I’m going to rip off a post I made earlier today on Pinstripe Alley in their comments section of their top 100 Yankees series. I’m so lazy I’m not going to bother editing it for possible spelling or grammatical mistakes, so apologies if there are some. Thank goodness for copy and paste. Since Qwik nominated Tommy Henrich yesterday, I thought I’d throw this in here. This ranking is 10-12 spots too low. As heartless as it may seem, you can’t give a player extra-credit due to injuries, that is part of the player. But it is unseemly not to give a player credit for having served in WWII. That was completely out of the control of the player. With those missing War years, he probably exceeds 50 WAR — a “stat” that the rankers for this list obviously value. Henrich obviously was adjusting back to Major League Baseball in 1946, posting his lowest OPS+ (113) since his injury-plagued year in 1939. Those two season were the only seasons he posted an OPS+ lower than 120. His career high of 31 HRs may seem modest, but he played in a time of cavernous ball parks. From 1946-49, only seven different players hit at least 30 HRs in one season in the American League. In 2021 alone, 27 players reached that mark in the American League. Ralph Kiner led the NL in home runs in 1946 with 23. Five players from the 2019 Yankees exceeded that total, including Brett Gardner and DJ LeMahieu. Henrich’s best run was 1947-49. 1947 — Finished 3rd in OPS, behind Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. 1948 — Finished 4th in OPS, again behind Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. The other player was Lou Boudreau. It would be a vast understatement that Boudreau had a career year that season. He hit .403 on the road and had the second-highest road OPS+ (213) of any shortstop in Major League history. 1949 — Finished 2nd in OPS to Ted Williams. DiMaggio had the heel injury so he didn’t have enough plate appearances to qualify. The only players to top Henrich in OPS during those three seasons were two of the absolute upper-tier players in Baseball history and a player that arguably had one of the five greatest seasons at his position in Baseball history. Henrich was a player noted for rising to the occasion during pivotal moments, was highly regarded by his fellow players (DiMaggio once said that Henrich was the smartest baseball player he ever played with), and his defensive reputation probably places him with the 30 best defensive right fielders of all time. Henrich being regarded as a supporting player on the Yankees just shows how stacked that team was and why they won eight pennants and seven World Championships during his 11 seasons. Because Tommy Henrich was a star by any measure. Anybody who saw Tommy Henrich play didn't under rate him. Excellent summary of his contributions, GForks. He was a favorite of Manager Joe McCarthy. As was his outfield mate for many years Charlie Keller. I not only believe Keller was an under-rated Yankee, at least by later generations of fans, I believe he is among the most under-rated players in baseball history. Bill James said of him that without the injuries he would have been one of the greatest power hitters in baseball history, below Ruth, Aaron and Williams but in the grouping of Schmidt and Ott and Reggie and McCovey. He rates very high in so many key offensive categories for the Yankees -- fourth all-time in OBP at .410, behind only Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle (and just ahead of another guy whose contributions to the Yanks I underestimated, Jason Giambi.) Ninth all-time in slugging percentage, this time just behind Giambi and seven HOF-level Yankees. Sixth all-time in OPS+ at 153, behind Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, Judge and just a tick behind DiMaggio. Seventh in adjusted batting, fifth in adjusted batting wins behind only the Mount Rushmore of Yankees Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and DiMaggio. Sixth in offensive win percentage, sixth win probability added, and on and on as you dig into the weeds. Generally in the storied history of Yankee hitters, he ranks behind only the absolute no-brainer immortals. The problem of course was mainly injuries (plus missing over a year and a half to World War II.) He was only 29 in his last full season; he suffered a slipped disc in his age 30 season and never really recovered. So maybe a Mattingly comparison is in order, although he outpoints even the great Donnie Baseball in many offensive categories. He was a very good defensive left-fielder with a strong arm who ran well and drew a lot of walks (obviously with an OBP of .410 to go with a .286 BA.) Also like Donnie, he was a no-BS guy who always played hard. He resisted repeated Yankee efforts to get him to pull the ball (he was left-handed) because he was so good at moving it all around the field. Herb Pennock said that the only left-handed batter he ever saw who could hit the ball harder to left than Keller was Babe Ruth. Like nearly all of the business-like professionals on the Yankees of that era, especially including Joe D and Lou Gehrig, he idolized McCarthy (just one more point in favor of my belief that he was the greatest manager ever.) He was a Maryland farm boy who after his playing days raised trotters (used in harness racing) on his farm near Frederick. He was one of the top breeders and trainers in the country. I've mentioned before that I used to see him often at Brandywine Race Track in Delaware in the 1960s and 1970s, often heading into the winner's circle with his biceps bulging through his navy blazer. Most of his horses had "Yankee" in their names -- I remember winning a few bucks on Fresh Yankee and Royal Yankee. I always bet on Keller's entries. He was a hairy, swarthy guy who detested the "King Kong" nickname bestowed on him. When the Yankees gave him a day at the Stadium near the end of his career, he used the proceeds from his many gifts to establish a scholarship at the University of Maryland. Just like Mattingly, he was a pro's pro. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 31, 2023 10:49:16 GMT -5
Another under-rated Yankee is Spud Chandler. In a career which did not begin until he was 29 and included essentially two years lost to war service, he put together a record of 109-43, a .717 winning percentage that is the highest in baseball history for a pitcher with at least 100 victories. He had an ERA+ of 132. Despite his short career, he is tied for sixth all-time among Yankee pitchers (with Guidry and Shawkey) in shutouts with 26, one behind Allie Reynolds with 27. His ERA+ for Yankee starters is third all time at 132, behind Cole at 136 and Ford at 133.
He gets a bit lost in the shuffle starting out on the staff of Red Ruffing and Lefty Gomez and ending with that of Allie Reynolds and Vic Raschi. Bill Dickey said he was the best pitcher he ever caught, and he caught his share of HOFers and All Stars. I agree the counting numbers just aren't enough for HOF status, but I wanted to put in a word for him.
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Post by grandforks on Dec 31, 2023 11:27:29 GMT -5
Pipps — I’m right there with you in regards to Keller and Chandler. Two great examples of “What could have been.”
I personally have Keller ranked as the 15th greatest left fielder in baseball history because I give him credit for his two missing War years. There is no reason to believe he wouldn’t have put up two HOF seasons over those two years. Eight full seasons and the injury-plagued partials should be enough to be considered a HOFer.
Addie Joss is in the HOF with eight full seasons and a partial.
His two sons were very good prospects in the Yankees system in the late 50s/early 60s before back issues hit them, too. And they both racked up walks like their dad did. Neither of them ever had an OBP below .400 in a full minor league season.
Charlie Keller III
.424
.409
.460
Donald Keller
.435
.422
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Post by Max on Dec 31, 2023 11:32:46 GMT -5
In my opinion...Bob Meusel is another underrated Yankee.
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 31, 2023 11:39:07 GMT -5
Pipps — I’m right there with you in regards to Keller and Chandler. Two great examples of “What could have been.” I personally have Keller ranked as the 15th greatest left fielder in baseball history because I give him credit for his two missing War years. There is no reason to believe he wouldn’t have put up two HOF seasons over those two years. Eight full seasons and the injury-plagued partials should be enough to be considered a HOFer. Addie Joss is in the HOF with eight full seasons and a partial. His two sons were very good prospects in the Yankees system in the late 50s/early 60s before back issues hit them, too. And they both racked up walks like their dad did. Neither of them ever had an OBP below .400 in a full minor league season. Charlie Keller III .424 .409 .460 Donald Keller .435 .422 Your Keller ranking sounds just about perfect, GForks. Of course I can't imagine what the stats of Ted Williams would look like if you compensate for time lost to the military. Or Feller, who would have blown way past 300 wins. Sounds like Keller was a good breeder not just of horses but of ballplayers too. Keller was a real hands-on horse owner. I mean he relaxed by mucking the stables and grooming the horses. He wasn't some remote investor. I had a relative who owned and raised trotters at that same track, Brandywine, and he said Charlie was the most blissful-looking guy he saw in the stables. When he had to throw on the jacket and tie to accept a trophy, it often accessorised shoes covered in straw and horsesh!t. Addie Joss is a good one. How can they use the "years" argument against Munson? |
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 31, 2023 11:41:16 GMT -5
In my opinion...Bob Meusel is another underrated Yankee. An integral part of the great 20s teams. An outstanding hitter with what many people considered to be the best OF arm of his era. He was often accused of not always giving his all, and I think that hurt him. Although the results seem to speak for themselves. |
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Post by grandforks on Dec 31, 2023 11:41:18 GMT -5
In my opinion...Bob Meusel is another underrated Yankee. Definitely. Quite possibly the best OF arm in baseball history. |
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Post by grandforks on Dec 31, 2023 11:53:21 GMT -5
How can they use the "years" argument against Munson? I can’t imagine there were many people in the 70s watching Thurman Munson that didn’t believe they were looking at a future HOFer. Good points about Williams and Feller, too. So many players from that time with incomplete careers. Does Warren Spahn reach 400 wins? Red Ruffing 300? Bill Dickey almost assuredly gets 2,000 hits. A pretty good milestone for a catcher, especially in the days of a 154-game schedule. |
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Post by 1955nyyfan on Dec 31, 2023 12:08:08 GMT -5
A buddy of mine is a big Giants fan and he told me he thought Posey was a lock for the HOF. I compaired his numbers to Munson's (including awards) and they are all most identical.
I also know the "years" argument is used against Donnie and it is true his numbers declined toward the end of his career but if you compare his overall numbers to recently inducted Tony Olivia they are really close, even games played. HOF voting is very selective.
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Post by grandforks on Dec 31, 2023 12:10:18 GMT -5
In my opinion, the most underrated Yankee is Allie Reynolds. I think he should be in the Hall of Fame.
Honorable mention to Mel Stottlemyre and Fritz Peterson.
Allie Reynolds is definitely a top candidate. His performance in the 1952 World Series is one of the best postseason performances of all time. |
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Post by grandforks on Dec 31, 2023 12:11:58 GMT -5
A buddy of mine is a big Giants fan and he told me he thought Posey was a lock for the HOF. I compaired his numbers to Munson's (including awards) and they are all most identical. I also know the "years" argument is used against Donnie and it is true his numbers declined toward the end of his career but if you compare his overall numbers to recently inducted Tony Olivia they are really close, even games played. HOF voting is very selective. Hi 1955. You nailed your post. |
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Post by Max on Dec 31, 2023 12:30:17 GMT -5
Pipps — I’m right there with you in regards to Keller and Chandler. Two great examples of “What could have been.” I personally have Keller ranked as the 15th greatest left fielder in baseball history because I give him credit for his two missing War years. There is no reason to believe he wouldn’t have put up two HOF seasons over those two years. Eight full seasons and the injury-plagued partials should be enough to be considered a HOFer. Addie Joss is in the HOF with eight full seasons and a partial. His two sons were very good prospects in the Yankees system in the late 50s/early 60s before back issues hit them, too. And they both racked up walks like their dad did. Neither of them ever had an OBP below .400 in a full minor league season. Charlie Keller III .424 .409 .460 Donald Keller .435 .422 Your Keller ranking sounds just about perfect, GForks. Of course I can't imagine what the stats of Ted Williams would look like if you compensate for time lost to the military. Or Feller, who would have blown way past 300 wins. Sounds like Keller was a good breeder not just of horses but of ballplayers too. Keller was a real hands-on horse owner. I mean he relaxed by mucking the stables and grooming the horses. He wasn't some remote investor. I had a relative who owned and raised trotters at that same track, Brandywine, and he said Charlie was the most blissful-looking guy he saw in the stables. When he had to throw on the jacket and tie to accept a trophy, it often accessorised shoes covered in straw and horsesh!t. Addie Joss is a good one. How can they use the "years" argument against Munson? Plain and simple, Munson was clutch. |
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Post by Max on Dec 31, 2023 12:34:00 GMT -5
In my opinion...Bob Meusel is another underrated Yankee. An integral part of the great 20s teams. An outstanding hitter with what many people considered to be the best OF arm of his era. He was often accused of not always giving his all, and I think that hurt him. Although the results seem to speak for themselves. I didn't know about Meusel arm. Thank you. I can remember my older bother telling me about Maris' arm. I can remember is exact words..."When you hear about Roger Maris you're going to hear about HRs, but he was also a very good fielder with a strong arm." |
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Post by Max on Dec 31, 2023 12:38:15 GMT -5
In my opinion, the most underrated Yankee is Allie Reynolds. I think he should be in the Hall of Fame.
Honorable mention to Mel Stottlemyre and Fritz Peterson.
Allie Reynolds is definitely a top candidate. His performance in the 1952 World Series is one of the best postseason performances of all time. My Dad who saw him play always said that Reynolds was a very good pitcher, but he pitched even better in the World Series. |
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Post by inger on Dec 31, 2023 15:45:41 GMT -5
Your Keller ranking sounds just about perfect, GForks. Of course I can't imagine what the stats of Ted Williams would look like if you compensate for time lost to the military. Or Feller, who would have blown way past 300 wins. Sounds like Keller was a good breeder not just of horses but of ballplayers too. Keller was a real hands-on horse owner. I mean he relaxed by mucking the stables and grooming the horses. He wasn't some remote investor. I had a relative who owned and raised trotters at that same track, Brandywine, and he said Charlie was the most blissful-looking guy he saw in the stables. When he had to throw on the jacket and tie to accept a trophy, it often accessorised shoes covered in straw and horsesh!t. Addie Joss is a good one. How can they use the "years" argument against Munson? Plain and simple, Munson was clutch. There are baseball experts galore that swear there is no such thing as “clutch”. They’re wrong of course. Checking Munson’s splits in B-R, I came up with this gem. In “high leverage” situations Munson produce a slash of .304 .367 .397 .764 In 837 games. The slash is accentuated by being accompanied by 116 walks and only 115 Ks. In addition he somehow willed himself to score 299 runs in those situations, a much higher ratio than in medium or low leverage situations. That would be by virtue of his higher than normal walks/OBP and an unseen force that would be the inspiration of his team mates to continue the rally behind him. He hit fewer HR in those spots and drew more walks, just gave a tough at bat and passed the baton… Take a good look at the leverage chart on Munson’s page and do a quick calculation of how different of a hitter he was in those situations. It’s a much starker contrast than I see in “typical” hitters… www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=munsoth01&year=Career&t=b |
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