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Post by kaybli on Dec 22, 2023 17:52:23 GMT -5
Great research pipps! I thought Pedro was 5’10” but he’s actually listed at 5’11”. I needed some hopium after missing out on Yamamoto and your post definitely helped! Let’s hope he turns into Igawa! Yamamoto got no reason to live.  On the off-chance anybody doesn't know, that's from the song "Short People." It's not a threat from me. Can't be too careful these days. lol, don’t be fooled people. Pipps is actually a spy a la James Bond. We call him 00pipps around here. A threat from him is to be taken very seriously. 😂 |
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Post by inger on Dec 22, 2023 19:25:50 GMT -5
I think the height of pitchers is less important I terms of stuff and effectiveness than in durability. The 5’ 7” Marcus Strohman still has a nice 116 career ERA… but he’s not always stayed in the best of physical health. My concern would be that Yammy might have a short career or be one of those guys that never builds up to pitch consistent innings…and in the 7th year of his contract he might look a like Stroman, who is not ever going to get a contract like the Yam did…
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Post by chiyankee on Dec 22, 2023 20:26:39 GMT -5
Doesn't appear that the Yanks had much of a chance unless they grossly overpaid.
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Post by qimqam on Dec 22, 2023 20:30:41 GMT -5
I'm not too worried about his size. There have been small elite pitchers in MLB history like Pedro and Whitey Ford.
Have you seen his sling shot delivery? Its pretty cool:
Kaybli, I wasn't too focused on his 5'10" stature previously, but as far as I have been able to determine, Whitey Ford is by far the best starting pitcher of the live ball era who is 5'10" or smaller. Even in the deadball era of the early 20th century there weren't many 5'10" or shorter -- there was Three-Finger Brown at that height. The only prominent pitcher shorter than that I could find (not counting guys who mostly pitched in the 19th century) was early Highlanders spitballer Jack Chesbro, who was 5'9". In fact most of the successful shorties of that era were spitballers like Eddie Cicotte of Black Sox infamy or the other 5'10" guy who was a successful live ball starter, Burleigh Grimes. He is probably the second best pitcher at that height from the live ball era. Take it up an inch to 5'11" and you do have Pedro Martinez and Ron Guidry and Fernando Valenzuela and Ted Lyons and Tim Lincecum from the liveball era. But still the pickings are slim. The only other modern-era guy I could find who was an outstanding pitcher at 5'10" was reliever Billy Wagner. There are some really short guys who had nice careers like Bobby Shantz or Roy Face or Freddie Norman, but I think the Dodgers are looking for more than that for their $325 million. I hadn't realized how unusual Ford was in being such an outlier at that height. Yamamoto may turn out to be the best thing from Japan since the Bento Box, and you have to think based on his accomplishments he has to be good in MLB, but he is definitely swimming against the tide of history. I had this argument in depth on the Yes board ... Yes you can absolutely be a successful pitcher at 5'10" 170 lbs but ...can you have a long successful career? To me it's highly unlikely. Whitey Ford was great for years at 5' 10" but A) He wasnt a Power Pitcher ... his fastball was upper 80s B) That was 60+ Years ago ... when players on avergae were much smaller than now ... particuarly pitchers Pedro Martinez was an inch taller but most sites have Pedro listed at 195 lbs which is not small To me Linceum is the closest comp at 5"11 and 170lbs and he broke down at age 27 after about 1000 innings pitched Yamamoto is already approaching 1000 innings pitched |
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Post by kaybli on Dec 22, 2023 21:48:24 GMT -5
The New York Yankees lost out on Japanese free-agent right-hander Yoshinobu Yamamoto, but not for lack of effort.
A comparison of the teams’ offers lends credence to the notion that Yamamoto simply might have preferred the Dodgers to any other club.
The Yankees offered Yamamoto a higher average annual value than the Dodgers, an earlier opt-out and more money in the first five years, according to sources briefed on the respective proposals.
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Post by Max on Dec 23, 2023 14:32:06 GMT -5
I heard that the Mets matched LA's offer for Yamamoto.
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Post by kaybli on Dec 23, 2023 14:33:54 GMT -5
I heard that the Mets matched LA's offer for Yamamoto. They did according to multiple sources on Twitter. It probably would not have made a difference but we should have matched it too. |
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Post by inger on Dec 23, 2023 17:12:55 GMT -5
I heard that the Mets matched LA's offer for Yamamoto. They did according to multiple sources on Twitter. It probably would not have made a difference but we should have matched it too. No. I think he got more than he should have. Our offer was too much already… overpay… |
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Post by azbob643 on Dec 23, 2023 17:23:47 GMT -5
Yamamoto had already planned on going to LA as long as the money was comparable....Ohtani played a huge role in that. Other teams were simply used to drive up the price.
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 23, 2023 23:50:08 GMT -5
They did according to multiple sources on Twitter. It probably would not have made a difference but we should have matched it too. No. I think he got more than he should have. Our offer was too much already… overpay… That's what many thought about Bryce Harper, but not anymore. It is only an overpay if he falls flat. If he pitches them to a World Series win... |
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Post by pippsheadache on Dec 24, 2023 14:09:52 GMT -5
No. I think he got more than he should have. Our offer was too much already… overpay… That's what many thought about Bryce Harper, but not anymore. It is only an overpay if he falls flat. If he pitches them to a World Series win... I believe the Yankees would have gone to the World Series in 2022 with Harper. He completely turned the Phillies' attitude around with his play and his leadership. That guy is a difference-maker. |
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 24, 2023 15:03:27 GMT -5
That's what many thought about Bryce Harper, but not anymore. It is only an overpay if he falls flat. If he pitches them to a World Series win... I believe the Yankees would have gone to the World Series in 2022 with Harper. He completely turned the Phillies' attitude around with his play and his leadership. That guy is a difference-maker. Harper also has an edginess that creates a sense of urgency and lack of acceptance for losing. That is something the Yankees sorely lack with Boone's "there's plenty of time to turn things around" mantra last season. Judge is more like the soft-spoken and relaxed Bernie Williams. Jeter, Tino, Posada, O'Neill, and Mariano were all hyper-focused and that energy permeated the clubhouse and anyone who joined that team. Harper was exactly the type of player the Yankees needed, but Cashman thought there was no place to play him with Stanton, Hicks, Frazier, and Andujar - what a horrible judge of talent. |
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Post by inger on Dec 24, 2023 15:04:53 GMT -5
Kaybli, I wasn't too focused on his 5'10" stature previously, but as far as I have been able to determine, Whitey Ford is by far the best starting pitcher of the live ball era who is 5'10" or smaller. Even in the deadball era of the early 20th century there weren't many 5'10" or shorter -- there was Three-Finger Brown at that height. The only prominent pitcher shorter than that I could find (not counting guys who mostly pitched in the 19th century) was early Highlanders spitballer Jack Chesbro, who was 5'9". In fact most of the successful shorties of that era were spitballers like Eddie Cicotte of Black Sox infamy or the other 5'10" guy who was a successful live ball starter, Burleigh Grimes. He is probably the second best pitcher at that height from the live ball era. Take it up an inch to 5'11" and you do have Pedro Martinez and Ron Guidry and Fernando Valenzuela and Ted Lyons and Tim Lincecum from the liveball era. But still the pickings are slim. The only other modern-era guy I could find who was an outstanding pitcher at 5'10" was reliever Billy Wagner. There are some really short guys who had nice careers like Bobby Shantz or Roy Face or Freddie Norman, but I think the Dodgers are looking for more than that for their $325 million. I hadn't realized how unusual Ford was in being such an outlier at that height. Yamamoto may turn out to be the best thing from Japan since the Bento Box, and you have to think based on his accomplishments he has to be good in MLB, but he is definitely swimming against the tide of history. I had this argument in depth on the Yes board ... Yes you can absolutely be a successful pitcher at 5'10" 170 lbs but ...can you have a long successful career? To me it's highly unlikely. Whitey Ford was great for years at 5' 10" but A) He wasnt a Power Pitcher ... his fastball was upper 80s B) That was 60+ Years ago ... when players on avergae were much smaller than now ... particuarly pitchers Pedro Martinez was an inch taller but most sites have Pedro listed at 195 lbs which is not small To me Linceum is the closest comp at 5"11 and 170lbs and he broke down at age 27 after about 1000 innings pitched Yamamoto is already approaching 1000 innings pitched There is a single fallacy in this argument. It’s called a self-fulfilling prophecy. Smaller players are not viewed as potential pitchers and are therefore usually pigeon-holed into other roles. Therefore few smaller players are given the opportunity to perform in that role. Without opportunity it’s not possible to disprove the theory. Yet, the fact remains that there is little track record… |
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Post by inger on Dec 24, 2023 15:15:59 GMT -5
I believe the Yankees would have gone to the World Series in 2022 with Harper. He completely turned the Phillies' attitude around with his play and his leadership. That guy is a difference-maker. Harper also has an edginess that creates a sense of urgency and lack of acceptance for losing. That is something the Yankees sorely lack with Boone's "there's plenty of time to turn things around" mantra last season. Judge is more like the soft-spoken and relaxed Bernie Williams. Jeter, Tino, Posada, O'Neill, and Mariano were all hyper-focused and that energy permeated the clubhouse and anyone who joined that team. Harper was exactly the type of player the Yankees needed, but Cashman thought there was no place to play him with Stanton, Hicks, Frazier, and Andujar - what a horrible judge of talent. At the time that Harper was a free agent he was also seemingly flip, arrogant and punk like in demeanor. I made the mistake of thinking he was an eternal child that would bring problems to the clubhouse, and I think that may have been the problem the Yankees had with signing him, as well. There was also the fact that during his time in Washington, Harper had only averaged 132 games per season and was trending toward a lower average of games. He’s only averaged 116 games per year so far with Philadelphia. His all-out style of play is admirable, but a player that can’t take the field must often either be replaced by the dreaded “replacement” player or (We saw what THAT looks like in 2023), or more often cause a team to juggle their defensive alignment to keep bats in the lineup. I think it still remains to be seen whether or not Harper can complete his career on the field enough to justify his contract. Perhaps passing on the talent in favor of a healthier player will remain the wiser choice. Perhaps not… |
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Post by rizzuto on Dec 24, 2023 15:42:38 GMT -5
Harper also has an edginess that creates a sense of urgency and lack of acceptance for losing. That is something the Yankees sorely lack with Boone's "there's plenty of time to turn things around" mantra last season. Judge is more like the soft-spoken and relaxed Bernie Williams. Jeter, Tino, Posada, O'Neill, and Mariano were all hyper-focused and that energy permeated the clubhouse and anyone who joined that team. Harper was exactly the type of player the Yankees needed, but Cashman thought there was no place to play him with Stanton, Hicks, Frazier, and Andujar - what a horrible judge of talent. At the time that Harper was a free agent he was also seemingly flip, arrogant and punk like in demeanor. I made the mistake of thinking he was an eternal child that would bring problems to the clubhouse, and I think that may have been the problem the Yankees had with signing him, as well. There was also the fact that during his time in Washington, Harper had only averaged 132 games per season and was trending toward a lower average of games. He’s only averaged 116 games per year so far with Philadelphia. His all-out style of play is admirable, but a player that can’t take the field must often either be replaced by the dreaded “replacement” player or (We saw what THAT looks like in 2023), or more often cause a team to juggle their defensive alignment to keep bats in the lineup. I think it still remains to be seen whether or not Harper can complete his career on the field enough to justify his contract. Perhaps passing on the talent in favor of a healthier player will remain the wiser choice. Perhaps not… Stanton only averaged 123 games per season before coming to the Yankees; Aaron Hicks even less. Should we even discuss Harrison Bader's availability? Bryce Harper has two World Series rings, two MVPs, and is a clutch performer. Also, with Philly, that 116 games per season is misleading because of the 60 game season in 2020. If you take that into consideration, he has averaged 82% posting of Phillies' games on the schedule, which is 133 games in an average 162 game season, and that includes his time missed for Tommy John surgery. Even with Tommy John surgery, he played in 126 games in 2023, coming back months sooner than projected. If the choice is a likely Hall of Famer for 132 games per season and a clutch hitter in the playoffs or a healthy Calhoun, McKinney, Oswaldo Cabrera, or Bauers, etc. I think you'll be in the minority. Which begs the question, who is this guaranteed healthy player you would have preferred over Bryce Harper? |
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