Greatest All-Time Team Rosters/Lineups

Okay, so far, tentatively:

(RF) Al Kaline, (CF) Ty Cobb, (LF) Harry Heilmann

(1B) Hank Greenberg (2B) Charlie Gehringer (SS) Alan Trammell, (3B) Miguel Cabrera

(C) Bill Freehan

(DH) Norm Cash

Lots of talent remains: Lou Whittaker, Chet Lemon, Cecil Fielder, Sam Crawford, Donie Bush, Lance Parrish, Dick McAuliffe, Kirk Gibson, Willie Horton, Bobby Veach

Please feel free to make the case for adjustments and modifications.

Depending how many years pitchers have to be in a Tigers’ uniform, it gets pretty tough fast:

Hal Newhouser
Denny McClain
Jim Bunning
Mickey Lolich
Jack Morris
Justin Verlander
Max Scherzer
Dizzy Trout

Todd Jones
Mike Henneman
Willie Hernandez
John Hiller
Aurelio Lopez

I will revisit when I have more time, but as you note the Cardinals are stacked at first base. You mentioned Pujols, Mize, McGwire and Hernandez. You could also add Jim Bottomley, Bill White and Gashouse Gang first sacker Ripper Collins, who had an outstanding, if brief, career. Musial actually played a lot of first base, but is more needed in the OF. And now of course they have Goldschmidt.

With all of that, and just going by the years he actually spent in St. Louis, I have to take Pujols. One of the best for that stretch. I assume we're permitting a DH for the NL? The Cards have an abundance of possibilities.

I would put Enos Slaughter in that OF. A hitting machine, fast, good defensively, an aggressive player who made things happen. It would mean putting Stan the Man in center, while he was a corner OFer, but he was enough of an athlete to make it work well enough to keep his bat in there between Medwick and Slaughter in the corners.

Hornsby and Ozzie are no- brainers. At third I wanted Scott Rolen, who is probably the best player they've ever had there, both offensively and defensively. But he only played six seasons for them, missed a lot of games and was a crybaby. I would take the more durable Ken Boyer, a solid all-around player who had a great field presence and just had that aura of competence.

Despite Simmons' clearly superior offensive ability, I would have to give some consideration to Yadier Molina for his unparalleled defensive and game-calling skills. There is enough bat power in this lineup to pull it off.

Gibson heads the staff for sure, and Dizzy Dean has to be on there. Adam Wainright I think. Back later with more thoughts.

PS -- even in this group, Stan the Man stands out. Simply the best. Yet he seems to fade into the woodwork because he was such a quiet, methodical, somewhat colorless player. He has to be among the ten greatest position players of all-time, but his image today is rather vague and blurry. Like Mo, a self-effacing man of simple basic decency.

Okay, only five years for Tudor, which is my general qualification minimum. But they were pretty oustanding years, including an ERA+ of 146. Someone to consider.

Note:  This post shall be edited many times, as I flip from website to website and try not to lose what I’ve already written.  

I decided to start with pitching, specifically relievers, but then decided that some starters might better deserve a spot in the bullpen than what once were considered “failed starters” rather than the last ten or twenty years of late inning specialists.  These days some relievers never started a game in the minors, in college, and even in high school.  

John Tudor absolutely deserves serious consideration for a spot on the all-time Cardinals pitching staff.  Of course, the untouchable is the nasty right hander and ultimate competitor Bob Gibson, who tops all St. Louis pitchers in WAR with 81.7.  No one else accrued even half of that total.  Gibson is also first in wins with 251, second in games pitched, and first in strikeouts, games started, games completed, innings pitched, and shutouts with 56.  He had a lifetime ERA of 2.91, a WHIP of 1.188, was selected to 9 all star games, won 9 Gold Gloves, 2 Cy Young Awards, 2 World Series titles, and 2 World Series MVP Awards.  And, obviously, a real Hall of Famer, even for the strictest evaluators.

While lefty John Tudor was only in uniform for 5 years in St. Louis, he had a relatively short MLB career, and the best of those years were with the Cardinals.  In 1985, Tudor was 21-8 with a 1.93 ERA, 14 complete games, which included 10 shutouts and a WHIP of 0.938, both of which led the league.  In all, Tudor pitched to a 2.52 ERA over those five seasons - second in franchise history - and a 1.080 WHIP, which leads the franchise.  Tudor pitched to contact, taking advantage of a splendid defensive outfield and the one and only Wizard of Oz, Ozzie Smith, who made defense sexy with his acrobatic displays, game after game.  

I may have mentioned over the years that my father was a Cardinals fan, as was his father, and there was no shortage of praise for the Hall of Famer Dizzy Dean.  From age 22 to 26, Dean won 18, 20, 30, 28, and 24 games, led the league in innings pitched 3 times, complete games 3 times, and strikeouts 4 times.  Overall with the Cardinals, Dean was 134-75 with a 2.99 ERA, an ERA+ of 132, and a WHIP of 1.204.  In 1936, Dean led the league in innings pitched with 315, complete games with 28, and games saved with 11.  In what was really only 5 and a half years with the Cardinals, Dean had 23 shutouts and 31 saves.

Bob Gibson (R)
John Tudor (L)
Dizzy Dean (R)

Bruce Sutter (R)
Lee Smith (R)
Jason Isringhausen (R)
Todd Worrell (R)

My preference in dealing with situations that cross different eras is to weight ERA+ and OPS+ a bit heavier than raw stats, like ERA, BA, etc.

The more I’ve reviewed statistics over the years, the more I’m convinced that many players became over rated due to the ballpark, or the era in which they played. It’s especially true of the most recent generations of players, who have had equipment and pharmaceutical advantages. The batters have also enjoyed many smaller ball parks. A home run in 2019 or 1919 is still a home run, but must be viewed through a different lense, as we all know…

More typically, I tend to pare out the peak years and use that OPS+ or ERA+. Most players have a 5-7 year peak, with a few exceptions. But I would still have to make a note of the number of years played and number of years in the peak. It’s not perfect, but then again, nothing in evaluating baseball stats ever has been, nor ever will be. I would never stand up and say that player A had a higher OPS+ than player B because he had a greater OPS+ because OPS+ doesn’t measure the whole of the player. Base running, base stealing, fielding and throwing prowess, leadership, intangibles, all needs to be considered. The problem will always be that we’ll be limited to what we know. That’s all right. We know more than the average fan.