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Post by rizzuto on Jun 16, 2021 23:33:24 GMT -5
St. Louis Cardinals All-Time Team (26):
C Ted Simmons - S (.298/.366/.459/.824) OPS+ 127
1B Stan Musial - L (.331/.417/.559/.976) OPS+ 159
2B Rogers Hornsby - R (.359/.427/.568/.995) OPS+ 177
SS Ozzie Smith - S (.272/.350/.344/.694) OPS+ 93
3B Albert Pujols - R (.328/.420/.617/1.037) OPS+ 170
DH Johnny Mize - L (.336/.419/.600/1.018) OPS+ 171
RF Enos Slaughter - L (.305/.384/.463/.847) OPS+ 126
CF Jim Edmonds - L (.285/.393/.555/.947) OPS+ 143
LF Joe Medwick - R (.333/.370/.544/.915) OPS+ 142
Bench:
C Yadier Molina - R (.281/.332/.406/.738) OPS+ 98
OF Chick Hafey - R (.326/.379/.568/.948) OPS+ 137
1B Jim Bottomley - L (.327/.390/.541/.930) OPS+ 137
3B Scott Rolen - R (.286/.370/.510/.879) OPS+ 127
1B Keith Hernandez - L (.296/.384/.436/.821) OPS+ 128
OF Lou Brock - L (.297/.347/.414/.761) OPS+ 112
Pitching Staff
Bob Gibson (R)
John Tudor (L)
Dizzy Dean (R)
Chris Carpenter (R)
Adam Wainwright (R)
Jesse Haines (R)
Harry Brecheen (L)
Lee Smith (R)
Bruce Sutter (R)
Todd Worrell (R)
Jason Isringhausen (R)
Note: Imagine a lead going into the late innings and having Yadier Molina at catcher, Ozzie Smith at SS, Jim Edmunds in CF, Scott Rolen at 3B, and Keith Hernandez at 1B?
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Post by inger on Jun 16, 2021 23:35:45 GMT -5
Uh oh. I can see both of your arguments. Do I smell a waffle cooking? 🤓 … |
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 17, 2021 2:40:38 GMT -5
Oh, I’ll change my my mind. Decisions are like a diamond to me. There are many facets to review. I’m a big fan of both players, really. I’m not much of a fan of letting OPS + be a final determining factor, but there IS a pretty good delta here. My thinking is that Molina would have been even more valuable in Simmon’s running era, so that is yet another facet of the diamond of decision-making. I fully doubt that Molina would have allowed over 100 steals as Simmons did a couple of times. I do think they make a great pair for their varying skill sets… The most stolen bases ever attempted against Molina was 85 in 2016. So, it was impossible for him to allow 100 steals; however, Molina allowed 67 stolen bases that season, only throwing out 18. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 17, 2021 4:22:43 GMT -5
Uh oh. I can see both of your arguments. Do I smell a waffle cooking? 🤓 … I think of it as diplomacy. Now maybe diplomacy is nothing more than a refined version of waffling, but it can facilitate more congenial social interaction. How about Solomonic wisdom? I can live with that. Or even schizophrenia. It's all good. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 17, 2021 4:40:31 GMT -5
That's a great team Rizz. I like how you worked Edmonds in there. One of my favorite players to watch ever. And nice that there's a place for Chick Hafey.
I know why you did it, but Albert Pujols at third makes me a bit jumpy. I realize he actually played 110 games there -- one this year even -- and I further realize that if Pujols is not at third, one of those OFers is on the bench.
He also played a game at second and one at SS. I don't suppose we could ask Ozzie to take a seat and put my man Ken Boyer at third?
Okay, I know it's not the same thing. Just a slight exercise in chain-yanking.
This team and the Detroit team would be pretty evenly matched.
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 17, 2021 5:59:39 GMT -5
A note on the largely forgotten HOFer Chick Hafey. He had the first-ever hit in the All Star Game in 1933. He had constant salary disputes with notoriously tight-fisted Cardinals GM Branch Rickey.
He was famous for his great arm in RF. He suffered with severe sinusitis throughout his career and attributed his constant vision issues to that. And along with Reggie Jackson, he is one of only two HOFers who wore glasses while playing.
He was one of those borderline players who were swept into the HOF when Frankie Frisch headed the Veterans Committee and got some of his pals from the Giants and Cardinals put in. Those players whose names aren't familiar to the average reasonably knowledgeable fan. Others in that group include Rube Marquard, Dave Bancroft, Ross Youngs, George Kelly, Travis Jackson and Freddy Lindstrom.
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 8:09:15 GMT -5
Your team, your rules, Rizz. I don’t like Musial dropped in at first, and I hate Pujols a third. Too much like a rotisserie team where you don’t pay the consequences of such decisions.
A much better case can be made for Musial of course…I forgot to see who you have DHing, but my gut tells me it should be Stan, with Pujols Manning first. (Going back to do a check on that DH)…
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 8:14:00 GMT -5
I love Johnny Mize. Instead, I’d put Stan in RF and bench Enos Slaughter. Pujols rolls to first and Rolen gets to start at 3rd. He needs some back up. Pujols could perhaps do that… anyone else versatile enough for the job?…
* I’d love to see Ken Boyer on the team and see maybe he beats Rolen out for the third base job. Love me some Boyer Brothers in Baseball. Cloyd is way up there among the oldest living players right now…
Oh, Chef Boyer Dee makes some heavenly coffee… (or something like that)…
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 8:29:29 GMT -5
Oh, I’ll change my my mind. Decisions are like a diamond to me. There are many facets to review. I’m a big fan of both players, really. I’m not much of a fan of letting OPS + be a final determining factor, but there IS a pretty good delta here. My thinking is that Molina would have been even more valuable in Simmon’s running era, so that is yet another facet of the diamond of decision-making. I fully doubt that Molina would have allowed over 100 steals as Simmons did a couple of times. I do think they make a great pair for their varying skill sets… The most stolen bases ever attempted against Molina was 85 in 2016. So, it was impossible for him to allow 100 steals; however, Molina allowed 67 stolen bases that season, only throwing out 18. Wondering if he had a physical issue that year? It’s certainly the exception rather than the rule… |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 17, 2021 8:54:58 GMT -5
I love Johnny Mize. Instead, I’d put Stan in RF and bench Enos Slaughter. Pujols rolls to first and Rolen gets to start at 3rd. He needs some back up. Pujols could perhaps do that… anyone else versatile enough for the job?… * I’d love to see Ken Boyer on the team and see maybe he beats Rolen out for the third base job. Love me some Boyer Brothers in Baseball. Cloyd is way up there among the oldest living players right now… Oh, Chef Boyer Dee makes some heavenly coffee… (or something like that)… I also like Stan in right, where he was fast and a solid defender (although an arm injury later diminished his throwing; let's say Young Stan) and Albert at first, where he was a good defensive player. Mize is perfect at DH. Slaughter was an excellent player, but I think the case for Edmonds in center is strong. I was thinking of him in terms of the Angels. And I'm another Boyer fan. Ken was probably the second-best third baseman in the NL for a good seven or eight years, behind Mathews. As I said before, Rolen was better both at bat and in the field, but Ken was no slouch and had a larger body of work as far as the Cards are concerned. But this is not a hill to die on, or even get annoyed on. Didn't know old Cloyd was still around. The oldest of the three and a bit before my memory. I only knew about him as a kid because every year on the back of either Ken or Clete's Topps card there would be one of those little cartoons mentioning how there were three Boyers in the majors. Clete was a magician at third. Sometimes a hungover magician, but a magician nevertheless. The older I get, the better he gets. Let's not forget Charles Boyer, the most suave of all the Boyers. Loved him in "Gaslight" and his inspiration for Pepe Le Pew. |
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 17, 2021 10:52:18 GMT -5
Your team, your rules, Rizz. I don’t like Musial dropped in at first, and I hate Pujols a third. Too much like a rotisserie team where you don’t pay the consequences of such decisions. A much better case can be made for Musial of course…I forgot to see who you have DHing, but my gut tells me it should be Stan, with Pujols Manning first. (Going back to do a check on that DH)… Musial wasn’t “dropped in at first.” Musial played first base more than any other position in his career. And, it started as early as 1946 at age 25, when he played 114 games there. In 1947 at age 26, Musial played 149 games at first base. Before you drop in Stan Musial at DH, have a look at the numbers of the guy you’d be displacing to the bench. And, there are some old timers that would argue for Pujols at DH, because the guy you didn’t take stock of in their minds was a slicker fielder at first. You may hate Pujols at third, but it’s not like he was terrible when he played there early in his career. And, he did play there as well as the outfield. If you remember my initial post starting this thread, I foreshadowed the problem with St. Louis and first base. If this were a rotisserie team, I’d have Pujols at shortstop. Let’s keep our heads, Inger, or at least be a little more precise. |
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 11:11:57 GMT -5
I love Johnny Mize. Instead, I’d put Stan in RF and bench Enos Slaughter. Pujols rolls to first and Rolen gets to start at 3rd. He needs some back up. Pujols could perhaps do that… anyone else versatile enough for the job?… * I’d love to see Ken Boyer on the team and see maybe he beats Rolen out for the third base job. Love me some Boyer Brothers in Baseball. Cloyd is way up there among the oldest living players right now… Oh, Chef Boyer Dee makes some heavenly coffee… (or something like that)… I also like Stan in right, where he was fast and a solid defender (although an arm injury later diminished his throwing; let's say Young Stan) and Albert at first, where he was a good defensive player. Mize is perfect at DH. Slaughter was an excellent player, but I think the case for Edmonds in center is strong. I was thinking of him in terms of the Angels. And I'm another Boyer fan. Ken was probably the second-best third baseman in the NL for a good seven or eight years, behind Mathews. As I said before, Rolen was better both at bat and in the field, but Ken was no slouch and had a larger body of work as far as the Cards are concerned. But this is not a hill to die on, or even get annoyed on. Didn't know old Cloyd was still around. The oldest of the three and a bit before my memory. I only knew about him as a kid because every year on the back of either Ken or Clete's Topps card there would be one of those little cartoons mentioning how there were three Boyers in the majors. Clete was a magician at third. Sometimes a hungover magician, but a magician nevertheless. The older I get, the better he gets. Let's not forget Charles Boyer, the most suave of all the Boyers. Loved him in "Gaslight" and his inspiration for Pepe Le Pew. Rolen had good numbers for his era. Boyer had good numbers for his era, which was a lighter hitting one than Rolen’s. Edmonds numbers and many of Pujols for that matter came in an era where 40+ HRs were a good bit more commonplace. This is where the eras get to be tough to mix. Sadly, all players of the era around the 2000 will have a bit of a cloud over their numbers due to the doubts of legitimacy caused by their peers and the experimentation with the ball, which continues to this day. I may get angry responses to that, but it’s a subject I won’t be waffling on… |
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 11:12:54 GMT -5
Your team, your rules, Rizz. I don’t like Musial dropped in at first, and I hate Pujols a third. Too much like a rotisserie team where you don’t pay the consequences of such decisions. A much better case can be made for Musial of course…I forgot to see who you have DHing, but my gut tells me it should be Stan, with Pujols Manning first. (Going back to do a check on that DH)… Musial wasn’t “dropped in at first.” Musial played first base more than any other position in his career. And, it started as early as 1946 at age 25, when he played 114 games there. In 1947 at age 26, Musial played 149 games at first base. Before you drop in Stan Musial at DH, have a look at the numbers of the guy you’d be displacing to the bench. And, there are some old timers that would argue for Pujols at DH, because the guy you didn’t take stock of in their minds was a slicker fielder at first. You may hate Pujols at third, but it’s not like he was terrible when he played there early in his career. And, he did play there as well as the outfield. If you remember my initial post starting this thread, I foreshadowed the problem with St. Louis and first base. If this were a rotisserie team, I’d have Pujols at shortstop. Let’s keep our heads, Inger, or at least be a little more precise. I think I’m keeping my head. We are simply not going to agree on this roster… |
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 17, 2021 11:14:31 GMT -5
I love Johnny Mize. Instead, I’d put Stan in RF and bench Enos Slaughter. Pujols rolls to first and Rolen gets to start at 3rd. He needs some back up. Pujols could perhaps do that… anyone else versatile enough for the job?… * I’d love to see Ken Boyer on the team and see maybe he beats Rolen out for the third base job. Love me some Boyer Brothers in Baseball. Cloyd is way up there among the oldest living players right now… Oh, Chef Boyer Dee makes some heavenly coffee… (or something like that)… I also like Stan in right, where he was fast and a solid defender (although an arm injury later diminished his throwing; let's say Young Stan) and Albert at first, where he was a good defensive player. Mize is perfect at DH. Slaughter was an excellent player, but I think the case for Edmonds in center is strong. I was thinking of him in terms of the Angels. And I'm another Boyer fan. Ken was probably the second-best third baseman in the NL for a good seven or eight years, behind Mathews. As I said before, Rolen was better both at bat and in the field, but Ken was no slouch and had a larger body of work as far as the Cards are concerned. But this is not a hill to die on, or even get annoyed on. Didn't know old Cloyd was still around. The oldest of the three and a bit before my memory. I only knew about him as a kid because every year on the back of either Ken or Clete's Topps card there would be one of those little cartoons mentioning how there were three Boyers in the majors. Clete was a magician at third. Sometimes a hungover magician, but a magician nevertheless. The older I get, the better he gets. Let's not forget Charles Boyer, the most suave of all the Boyers. Loved him in "Gaslight" and his inspiration for Pepe Le Pew. Musial actually played more left field than right and more 1B than any other position. Slaughter played 1540 games in his career in right field to Musial’s 783. Musial’s 331 games in centerfield had me thinking hard, but I couldn’t ignore Jim Edmunds’ sterling numbers in a Cardinals uniform or forget his highlight reel of circus catches seemingly every other game. And, Edmunds was in that uniform for 8 years, his longest tenure for a single team was the Cardinals. |
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 17, 2021 11:22:39 GMT -5
Musial wasn’t “dropped in at first.” Musial played first base more than any other position in his career. And, it started as early as 1946 at age 25, when he played 114 games there. In 1947 at age 26, Musial played 149 games at first base. Before you drop in Stan Musial at DH, have a look at the numbers of the guy you’d be displacing to the bench. And, there are some old timers that would argue for Pujols at DH, because the guy you didn’t take stock of in their minds was a slicker fielder at first. You may hate Pujols at third, but it’s not like he was terrible when he played there early in his career. And, he did play there as well as the outfield. If you remember my initial post starting this thread, I foreshadowed the problem with St. Louis and first base. If this were a rotisserie team, I’d have Pujols at shortstop. Let’s keep our heads, Inger, or at least be a little more precise. I think I’m keeping my head. We are simply not going to agree on this roster… You’ve seen me write many times in many threads, I am less interested in what you think than how you think. And, if you ignore the numbers and rationale - without even remembering who was at DH, call it a rotisserie team when I spent a good deal of time poring over the games played and individual statistics - not just a “gut” feeling, use terms like “dropped in” when Musial played more games at first than any other position, then agreement is not remotely possible. The use of language is imprecise, and in fact, it’s more like trolling. |
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