|
|
Post by inger on Jun 15, 2021 17:31:17 GMT -5
I have to DFA Mort Cooper. He was a WW2 phenom. Average pitcher when the boys were all home. But, he had his day…
|
|
|
|
Post by rizzuto on Jun 15, 2021 17:34:38 GMT -5
I enjoy the debate guys. You also should check out the numbers for Carpenter and Brecheen, which IMO put them in the mix. Between Gibson, Tudor, Carpenter and Dean, the Cardinals had some really chirping or badass pitchers. Tudor made a quantum leap from his first five years in Boston, where he was a decent but unremarkable pitcher, to his performance with St. Louis. The Cardinals had probably the most extensive geographic following of any team back in the day. I haven’t gotten past the top three starters, yet. But, I just looked at one of the all time great names in baseball: Silver King. In three years with the Cardinals, he was 112-48 for a .700 winning percentage, a 2.70 ERA, and a 1.122 WHIP. I want to look at Bob Forsch, Carpenter, Wainwright, Jesse Haines, and Brecheen. |
|
|
|
Post by inger on Jun 15, 2021 23:45:43 GMT -5
I enjoy the debate guys. You also should check out the numbers for Carpenter and Brecheen, which IMO put them in the mix. Between Gibson, Tudor, Carpenter and Dean, the Cardinals had some really chirping or badass pitchers. Tudor made a quantum leap from his first five years in Boston, where he was a decent but unremarkable pitcher, to his performance with St. Louis. The Cardinals had probably the most extensive geographic following of any team back in the day. I haven’t gotten past the top three starters, yet. But, I just looked at one of the all time great names in baseball: Silver King. In three years with the Cardinals, he was 112-48 for a .700 winning percentage, a 2.70 ERA, and a 1.122 WHIP. I want to look at Bob Forsch, Carpenter, Wainwright, Jesse Haines, and Brecheen. These exercises are difficult and time-consuming. You’re a good man for tackling them. I look forward to the building of the teams and the discussion that it brings… I assume you will be the official GM with final day on the rosters. If so, good! I’d rather be a lighter participant on that side… |
|
|
|
Post by inger on Jun 15, 2021 23:46:37 GMT -5
By the way: Silver King made some hellacious corn, too…
|
|
|
|
Post by pippsheadache on Jun 16, 2021 4:52:07 GMT -5
I haven’t gotten past the top three starters, yet. But, I just looked at one of the all time great names in baseball: Silver King. In three years with the Cardinals, he was 112-48 for a .700 winning percentage, a 2.70 ERA, and a 1.122 WHIP. I want to look at Bob Forsch, Carpenter, Wainwright, Jesse Haines, and Brecheen. These exercises are difficult and time-consuming. You’re a good man for tackling them. I look forward to the building of the teams and the discussion that it brings… I assume you will be the official GM with final day on the rosters. If so, good! I’d rather be a lighter participant on that side… What Inger said. I love it and love to throw in my two pesos from time to time. But I may be like the guy who watches the cleaning crew sweating away for hours and then says "you missed a spot."😎 Seriously, it's a great exercise and most appreciated. Keep 'em coming. |
|
|
|
Post by pippsheadache on Jun 16, 2021 8:55:51 GMT -5
Bob Forsch was a good catch -- I didn't think of him -- but after looking him up, I don't think he can make this staff. He certainly had his moments-- two no-hitters, and he did manage 168 victories over a sixteen-year career in which he was relatively reliable. But his career ERA+ was a mediocre 101 -- and only 98 for the Cardinals -- putting him well below other candidates.
Bob and Ken Forsch are the only brothers to throw no-hitters. They are also one of only five brother combos in which each had at least 100 victories. The others are Phil and Joe Niekro, Gaylord and Jim Perry, Pedro and Ramon Martinez and Jered and Jeff Weaver. I admit that last one surprised me.
The Niekros and the Perrys are the only brother act where each has over 200 victories.
Substituting for an ill Whitey Herzog, Bob Forsch threw out the first pitch of the Cardinals World Series game on October 28, 2011. Six days later, he collapsed and died at his home near Tampa at age 61.
|
|
|
|
Post by pippsheadache on Jun 16, 2021 9:49:44 GMT -5
Harry "The Cat" Brecheen had a relatively short career -- he was 28 in his first full season, buried in the Cards massive farm system. He developed a screwball that greatly enhanced his prospects.
Maybe his most impressive stat was that despite his late start, for seven consecutive seasons he was in the top eight in WHIP. He finished his career-- all but one year of which was with the Cardinals-- with an ERA+ of 133.
He was a great defensive player -- in seven of his eleven full seasons he did not commit an error, and made only seven in over 1,900 IP.
He is one of only three southpaws to win three games in a World Series, along with Mickey Lolich and Randy Johnson.
I remember him well as the Orioles pitching coach for what seemed like forever. Among the pitchers he mentored were Jim Palmer, Milt Pappas, Dave McNally and Steve Barber. He also revived the career of Robin Roberts when Robbie was in his mid-30s and considered washed up.
He has a strong claim for some kind of spot on this team.
For three games he was up with the Cardinals in 1940. That means they had The Cat, The Big Cat (Johnny Mize), The Hat (Harry Walker) and Slats (Marty Marion) on the same roster. They don't make teamns like that anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by inger on Jun 16, 2021 10:39:10 GMT -5
Harry "The Cat" Brecheen had a relatively short career -- he was 28 in his first full season, buried in the Cards massive farm system. He developed a screwball that greatly enhanced his prospects. Maybe his most impressive stat was that despite his late start, for seven consecutive seasons he was in the top eight in WHIP. He finished his career-- all but one year of which was with the Cardinals-- with an ERA+ of 133. He was a great defensive player -- in seven of his eleven full seasons he did not commit an error, and made only seven in over 1,900 IP. He is one of only three southpaws to win three games in a World Series, along with Mickey Lolich and Randy Johnson. I remember him well as the Orioles pitching coach for what seemed like forever. Among the pitchers he mentored were Jim Palmer, Milt Pappas, Dave McNally and Steve Barber. He also revived the career of Robin Roberts when Robbie was in his mid-30s and considered washed up. He has a strong claim for some kind of spot on this team. For three games he was up with the Cardinals in 1940. That means they had The Cat, The Big Cat (Johnny Mize), The Hat (Harry Walker) and Slats (Marty Marion) on the same roster. They don't make teamns like that anymore. I hated Brecheen for what he accomplished with those Oriole pitchers in those days. Simply admire him now. Even if he’s only a spot starter and reliever, he needs to be on this team to be able to impart his knowledge of pitching. Other than a young Barber, his Oriole protégés did not have those sexy big fastballs and strikeout totals. They knew how to keep hitters off balance and making weak contact. That was Harry… |
|
|
|
Post by BillyBones on Jun 16, 2021 10:51:18 GMT -5
Wanted to chime in on these most interesting posts. I had to review whether lefty Dickie Kerr joined the 3 game WS winners group. He did not. But, won the 2 games he started in 1919, despite teammates not trying hard. Dickie had a fellow pitcher with an interesting name and a high ERA named Shovel Hodge.
|
|
|
|
Post by rizzuto on Jun 16, 2021 12:18:25 GMT -5
Harry "The Cat" Brecheen had a relatively short career -- he was 28 in his first full season, buried in the Cards massive farm system. He developed a screwball that greatly enhanced his prospects. Maybe his most impressive stat was that despite his late start, for seven consecutive seasons he was in the top eight in WHIP. He finished his career-- all but one year of which was with the Cardinals-- with an ERA+ of 133. He was a great defensive player -- in seven of his eleven full seasons he did not commit an error, and made only seven in over 1,900 IP. He is one of only three southpaws to win three games in a World Series, along with Mickey Lolich and Randy Johnson. I remember him well as the Orioles pitching coach for what seemed like forever. Among the pitchers he mentored were Jim Palmer, Milt Pappas, Dave McNally and Steve Barber. He also revived the career of Robin Roberts when Robbie was in his mid-30s and considered washed up. He has a strong claim for some kind of spot on this team. For three games he was up with the Cardinals in 1940. That means they had The Cat, The Big Cat (Johnny Mize), The Hat (Harry Walker) and Slats (Marty Marion) on the same roster. They don't make teamns like that anymore. Excellent posts, Pipps. What I am finding in trying to round out the pitching staff, even in the rich baseball history of the Cardinals, is a handful of good but not great hurlers. Even a Hall of Famer like Jesse Haines rarely led the league in even a single category and had more mild or mediocre years than anything representing dominance at all. Haines had a career ERA of 3.64 and WHIP of 1.350, gave up more than a hit per inning and an ERA+ of 109. All good numbers, but hardly great. Yet, he’s in the Hall of Fame. There are also pitchers who were more famous elsewhere, like Cy Young and Steve Carlton. So, let’s see what everyone thinks thus far about this staff, which still could add another member or two if needed, but there are probably more position players more deserving of those final spots. Bob Gibson (R) John Tudor (L) Dizzy Dean (R) Chris Carpenter (R) Adam Wainwright (R) Jesse Haines (R) Harry Brecheen (L) Lee Smith (R) Bruce Sutter (R) Todd Worrell (R) Jason Isringhausen (R) I’m tempted to add Steve Carlton just to have another lefty. His stats for the Cardinals: 77-62 3.10 ERA 1.279 WHIP 114 ERA+ |
|
|
|
Post by inger on Jun 16, 2021 13:20:17 GMT -5
Glad to see that you’ve left Hrabosky out of the bullpen. Other than 73-75 he was just a foolish-looking man stomping around on the mound while providing an average-at-best performance…
|
|
|
|
Post by inger on Jun 16, 2021 13:23:12 GMT -5
You might want to keep Larry Jaster in AAA just to spot start against the All-Time Dodgers… 🤓
|
|
|
|
Post by pippsheadache on Jun 16, 2021 13:51:46 GMT -5
Wanted to chime in on these most interesting posts. I had to review whether lefty Dickie Kerr joined the 3 game WS winners group. He did not. But, won the 2 games he started in 1919, despite teammates not trying hard. Dickie had a fellow pitcher with an interesting name and a high ERA named Shovel Hodge. Poor Dickie was only the number three starter, behind Eddie Cicotte and Lefty Williams, both of whom were in on the fix. Cicotte was one of the more shameless fixers, and he did his job well in game one, getting blasted by the Reds in what was a best of nine series. But when the gamblers showed signs of reneging on the payouts, Cicotte pitched well in his final two starts and actually won his last one. Williams was more compliant, getting wracked for an ERA of well over six in his three starts, each of which resulted in a White Sox loss. Kerr, as you know, pitched brilliantly in his two starts. He is far better-known than he would otherwise be because of his honest effort. Christy Mathewson was covering (actually a ghostwriter wrote the stories) the game for one of the newspapers and knew almost from the start of game one that something was fishy. It was discussed rather openly in some circles even as it was going on. |
|
|
|
Post by pippsheadache on Jun 16, 2021 13:56:58 GMT -5
You might want to keep Larry Jaster in AAA just to spot start against the All-Time Dodgers… 🤓 Great recall, Inger. Hard to believe that the rather ordinary Jaster pitched five shutouts in 1966 against the NL pennant-winning Dodgers. |
|
|
|
Post by pippsheadache on Jun 16, 2021 14:17:33 GMT -5
I hear you on Carlton Rizz. He actually was a three-time All Star for St. Louis and won 77 games for them. Although he's so identified with the Phillies that it seems to be a bit of a stretch to put him on this squad.
It was a big deal and considered a fairly even trade when Carlton was dealt to the Phillies straight up for Rick Wise in 1972. Getting Carlton was a major factor in changing the trajectory of the Phillies from perpetual losers into one of the top handful of organizations from the mid-70s to the mid-80s.
Wise had a pretty respectable career himself, winning 188 games. He has the distinction of twice being traded for a HOFer. The second time was going to Cleveland from Boston for Dennis Eckersly.
|
|
