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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 11:40:02 GMT -5
I think I’m keeping my head. We are simply not going to agree on this roster… You’ve seen me write many times in many threads, I am less interested in what you think than how you think. And, if you ignore the numbers and rationale - without even remembering who was at DH, call it a rotisserie team when I spent a good deal of time poring over the games played and individual statistics, use terms like “dropped in” when Musial played more games at first than any other position, then agreement is not remotely possible. The use of language is not precise, and in fact, it’s more like trolling. I’m certainly sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. Harm not intended. I just felt a sense of incompletion on this one. It’s not easy when you have more players than you can fit on the field, and I realize that. I know I was pretty tired when I wrote that, and it did reflect on my writing style. Yes, we’ve both communicated with the other hundreds of times, and yes, we both know the other well enough to understand each other well enough to avoid coming to war over a discussion, even if we need to talk it out once in a while. I’ve done similar exercises on these threads many, many times and appreciate the effort you’re putting in. My future comments on this project will be better measured. Unless I’ve been outside in 100 degree weather for a few hours and am exhausted. In that case, I’ll try to recall to refrain until I’ve had time to review more thoroughly. Short term memory can be an issue here at times now days though… |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 17, 2021 11:41:06 GMT -5
We'll be back right after this word from our sponsor.
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 17, 2021 11:57:33 GMT -5
That's a great team Rizz. I like how you worked Edmonds in there. One of my favorite players to watch ever. And nice that there's a place for Chick Hafey. I know why you did it, but Albert Pujols at third makes me a bit jumpy. I realize he actually played 110 games there -- one this year even -- and I further realize that if Pujols is not at third, one of those OFers is on the bench. He also played a game at second and one at SS. I don't suppose we could ask Ozzie to take a seat and put my man Ken Boyer at third? Okay, I know it's not the same thing. Just a slight exercise in chain-yanking. This team and the Detroit team would be pretty evenly matched. Edmunds was a treat in centerfield. He made Willie Mays’ famous catch look pedestrian. Admittedly, Pujols at third was a bit of a reach, but I didn’t want to lose Medwick in left, where he played almost exclusively, and Pujols played like three fewer games in right field than Medwick. In the end, the only recourse with first base - the problem from the beginning - would be Pujols at first, Musial in right, and Rolen at third. Quite honestly, I always considered Rolen overrated, and like you mentioned previously: a whiner. So, ultimately I went for Enos “Country” Slaughter starting over Scott Rolen. While Pujols was solid at first base, Musial was a better athlete, and it was his primary position in games played, left field second, right field third, and centerfield fourth. Also, I remember my departed Yankee buddy Joe telling me how Mize had quick feet and quick, soft hands at first base - but Gold Gloves and defensive recognition didn’t come around systematically until 1957. And, there are still problems with defensive metrics today. This compilation started me thinking about all-defensive teams for each franchise: C Yogi Berra 1B Don Mattingly 2B Bobby Richardson SS Phil Rizzuto 3B Clete Boyer/Graig Nettles LF Brett Gardner CF Joe DiMaggio RF Mickey Mantle Joe once told me that Maris was a wonderful right fielder, so I also thought of Mickey in left and Maris in right. And, I cannot decide between Boyer and Nettles. |
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 17, 2021 12:09:33 GMT -5
You’ve seen me write many times in many threads, I am less interested in what you think than how you think. And, if you ignore the numbers and rationale - without even remembering who was at DH, call it a rotisserie team when I spent a good deal of time poring over the games played and individual statistics, use terms like “dropped in” when Musial played more games at first than any other position, then agreement is not remotely possible. The use of language is not precise, and in fact, it’s more like trolling. I’m certainly sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. Harm not intended. I just felt a sense of incompletion on this one. It’s not easy when you have more players than you can fit on the field, and I realize that. I know I was pretty tired when I wrote that, and it did reflect on my writing style. Yes, we’ve both communicated with the other hundreds of times, and yes, we both know the other well enough to understand each other well enough to avoid coming to war over a discussion, even if we need to talk it out once in a while. I’ve done similar exercises on these threads many, many times and appreciate the effort you’re putting in. My future comments on this project will be better measured. Unless I’ve been outside in 100 degree weather for a few hours and am exhausted. In that case, I’ll try to recall to refrain until I’ve had time to review more thoroughly. Short term memory can be an issue here at times now days though… No harm done. If you reread the initial thread, I invited critique, because as Hume said, “truth springs from arguments among friends.” But, I would like to read the specific reasoning and argument, rather than a Noetsi-esque, data-lacking, rationale-lacking dismissal. |
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 17, 2021 12:19:59 GMT -5
We'll be back right after this word from our sponsor. On Ken Boyer: can I put him at third when he wasn’t even the best third baseman in his own family? Seriously, I still am thinking about torpedoing Rolen for Boyer, who may be as underrated as anyone who played the game. He won an MVP and was in the top ten three other times. |
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 12:21:37 GMT -5
C Yogi Berra
1B Don Mattingly
2B Bobby Richardson
SS Phil Rizzuto
3B Clete Boyer/Graig Nettles
LF Brett Gardner
CF Joe DiMaggio
RF Mickey Mantle
It’s hard to rearrange that table. I’ve also heard that Mize was amazing at first. The nickname “The Big Cat” was based on his infield play, not his offensive prowess. We’ve heard Gehrig was good in the field. I don’t think the first baseman of old time ball moved around much until people started noticing Mize. I’d stick with Donny.
Richardson was very good. It was obvious to even a young child. I didn’t like him as a hitter, though he had those two strangely good years mixed with mostly mediocre hitting.
Boyer/Nettles. Nettles/Boyer. Platoon them, perhaps?
It’s so nice to see Gardner get the recognition, but I like the idea of Mantle on left and the rifle-armed Maris in right field.
Here’s a thought. Was Berra really better than Elston Howard defensively. By the time I was aware enough to figure anything out, even Howard was past his prime. It’s so hard to tell Berra he’s going to be on the bench… Was Elston Howard really better than Bill Dickey? If so I have to tell Yogi he’s third string. I think I’d have to go with Bill Dickey. It’s all folklore, of course. And reading. But Dickey was a tank back there. The stories of his exploits are so good that I feel like he was the man…
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 12:26:22 GMT -5
I’m certainly sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. Harm not intended. I just felt a sense of incompletion on this one. It’s not easy when you have more players than you can fit on the field, and I realize that. I know I was pretty tired when I wrote that, and it did reflect on my writing style. Yes, we’ve both communicated with the other hundreds of times, and yes, we both know the other well enough to understand each other well enough to avoid coming to war over a discussion, even if we need to talk it out once in a while. I’ve done similar exercises on these threads many, many times and appreciate the effort you’re putting in. My future comments on this project will be better measured. Unless I’ve been outside in 100 degree weather for a few hours and am exhausted. In that case, I’ll try to recall to refrain until I’ve had time to review more thoroughly. Short term memory can be an issue here at times now days though… No harm done. If you reread the initial thread, I invited critique, because as Hume said, “truth springs from arguments among friends.” But, I would like to read the specific reasoning and argument, rather than a Noetsi-esque, data-lacking, rationale-lacking dismissal. The rotisserie comment was a bit rough and was meant to challenge you. But that was coming from a grumpy me that evening… The main thing was that while these are your teams, and I am good with that, I just wanted to see a more realistic representation of a real team than the Cards we’re feeling at that time. Anyway, I’m suggesting that Boyer play third. I feel he was very good defensively, and his numbers aren’t shabby when his era is taken into consideration over Rolen’s. He was extremely important in those 60’s lineups… |
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 12:27:57 GMT -5
We'll be back right after this word from our sponsor. On Ken Boyer: can I put him at third when he wasn’t even the best third baseman in his own family? Seriously, I still am thinking about torpedoing Rolen for Boyer, who may be as underrated as anyone who played the game. He won an MVP and was in the top ten three other times. He was the best “overall” player in his family… |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 17, 2021 13:01:19 GMT -5
On Ken Boyer: can I put him at third when he wasn’t even the best third baseman in his own family? Seriously, I still am thinking about torpedoing Rolen for Boyer, who may be as underrated as anyone who played the game. He won an MVP and was in the top ten three other times. He was the best “overall” player in his family… I don't think Ken Boyer was under-rated in his day. I can recall plenty of adulatory articles on his solid complete game. But in the 1970s and 1980s there was a burst of great third basemen like Schmidt, Brett, Boggs, Nettles etc. that left not only Boyer but the even greater Eddie Mathews buried in relative obscurity. Mike Schmidt was better than Eddie Mathews, but they weren't from different planets. Ken Boyer was one of those guys with nearly flawless diamond smarts. Frank Robinson was like that. Derek Jeter. There is no statistic I am aware of that measures when you threw to the right base or knew when to take the extra base or positioned yourself perfectly. Boyer was renowned for doing just that. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 17, 2021 14:45:57 GMT -5
C Yogi Berra 1B Don Mattingly 2B Bobby Richardson SS Phil Rizzuto 3B Clete Boyer/Graig Nettles LF Brett Gardner CF Joe DiMaggio RF Mickey Mantle It’s hard to rearrange that table. I’ve also heard that Mize was amazing at first. The nickname “The Big Cat” was based on his infield play, not his offensive prowess. We’ve heard Gehrig was good in the field. I don’t think the first baseman of old time ball moved around much until people started noticing Mize. I’d stick with Donny. Richardson was very good. It was obvious to even a young child. I didn’t like him as a hitter, though he had those two strangely good years mixed with mostly mediocre hitting. Boyer/Nettles. Nettles/Boyer. Platoon them, perhaps? It’s so nice to see Gardner get the recognition, but I like the idea of Mantle on left and the rifle-armed Maris in right field. Here’s a thought. Was Berra really better than Elston Howard defensively. By the time I was aware enough to figure anything out, even Howard was past his prime. It’s so hard to tell Berra he’s going to be on the bench… Was Elston Howard really better than Bill Dickey? If so I have to tell Yogi he’s third string. I think I’d have to go with Bill Dickey. It’s all folklore, of course. And reading. But Dickey was a tank back there. The stories of his exploits are so good that I feel like he was the man… A lot of tough calls in there. At catcher, I had always thought of Yogi as the best defensively. He was shockingly quick and nimble for his ungainly stature, I think more so than Elston. But if you compare their CS percentages and fielding percentages to the league averages, they are right in the same neighborhood with even a slight edge to Elston. They were both excellent pitch handlers. I'm not sure from a purely defensive standpoint that there's much difference, even though my eye test leaned toward Yogi. Like everyone else here, my knowledge of Dickey is anecdotal enhanced by research. Inger's description of him being a tank back there aligns with everything I ever heard from people who saw him. Approach at your own risk. It did seem that he had a wider spread (49/41 percent) above league average on CS than either Howard or Berra, although all three were above the average. Richardson was a wonderful second baseman. I don't think any Yankee second baseman had a better arm than Cano, isolating on that one phase. But Richardson was better at turning the DP with his faster release and was definitely more sure-handed. Gordon was famous for his athleticism. But he did make his share of errors. People spoke more of Lazzeri's offense than his defense. What about Willie Randolph? He's at least in the conversation. Pretty similar to Richardson in my book, although there was a gracefulness in Bobby's play that makes me lean toward him. It's all close. Nettles/Boyer I can't answer. I am prejudiced toward Clete in part I am sure because I watched him as a kid and his play blew me away. But Nettles could make that play and throw from beyond the bag like a demon. Clete's great specialties were charging the slow roller and throwing from his knees. At a time when bunts were common, he was the best at destroying that strategy. Maris was indeed a superb RFer. Great arm, great range, great at playing it off the wall. Even though he is famous for his short burst of home run prowess in the early 60s, he was a better defensive player than offensive player. Joe D. is a lock in CF. Gardner I do like out there in LF. The old timers used to talk about Bob Meusel having a great arm in LF, but he was also known for not always going all out, so who needs that? I could never keep the Mighty Mick off any squad, offense, defense or picket fence, so there has to be a spot for him. Mattingly has to be the guy at first. Tex is definitely in the running too, no question. Beyond that, you would have to go back to the Highlander days of Hal Chase. He struck his contemporaries the way Donnie Baseball struck us, and probably for his era stood out even more from the pack than Mattingly. But he also threw games and was considered an unusually shady character even at a time when there was no shortage of them. Like I'm going to tell a guy named Rizzuto that I had somebody else in mind at SS. But I didn't anyway. |
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 15:20:41 GMT -5
C Yogi Berra 1B Don Mattingly 2B Bobby Richardson SS Phil Rizzuto 3B Clete Boyer/Graig Nettles LF Brett Gardner CF Joe DiMaggio RF Mickey Mantle It’s hard to rearrange that table. I’ve also heard that Mize was amazing at first. The nickname “The Big Cat” was based on his infield play, not his offensive prowess. We’ve heard Gehrig was good in the field. I don’t think the first baseman of old time ball moved around much until people started noticing Mize. I’d stick with Donny. Richardson was very good. It was obvious to even a young child. I didn’t like him as a hitter, though he had those two strangely good years mixed with mostly mediocre hitting. Boyer/Nettles. Nettles/Boyer. Platoon them, perhaps? It’s so nice to see Gardner get the recognition, but I like the idea of Mantle on left and the rifle-armed Maris in right field. Here’s a thought. Was Berra really better than Elston Howard defensively. By the time I was aware enough to figure anything out, even Howard was past his prime. It’s so hard to tell Berra he’s going to be on the bench… Was Elston Howard really better than Bill Dickey? If so I have to tell Yogi he’s third string. I think I’d have to go with Bill Dickey. It’s all folklore, of course. And reading. But Dickey was a tank back there. The stories of his exploits are so good that I feel like he was the man… A lot of tough calls in there. At catcher, I had always thought of Yogi as the best defensively. He was shockingly quick and nimble for his ungainly stature, I think more so than Elston. But if you compare their CS percentages and fielding percentages to the league averages, they are right in the same neighborhood with even a slight edge to Elston. They were both excellent pitch handlers. I'm not sure from a purely defensive standpoint that there's much difference, even though my eye test leaned toward Yogi. Like everyone else here, my knowledge of Dickey is anecdotal enhanced by research. Inger's description of him being a tank back there aligns with everything I ever heard from people who saw him. Approach at your own risk. It did seem that he had a wider spread (49/41 percent) above league average on CS than either Howard or Berra, although all three were above the average. Richardson was a wonderful second baseman. I don't think any Yankee second baseman had a better arm than Cano, isolating on that one phase. But Richardson was better at turning the DP with his faster release and was definitely more sure-handed. Gordon was famous for his athleticism. But he did make his share of errors. People spoke more of Lazzeri's offense than his defense. What about Willie Randolph? He's at least in the conversation. Pretty similar to Richardson in my book, although there was a gracefulness in Bobby's play that makes me lean toward him. It's all close. Nettles/Boyer I can't answer. I am prejudiced toward Clete in part I am sure because I watched him as a kid and his play blew me away. But Nettles could make that play and throw from beyond the bag like a demon. Clete's great specialties were charging the slow roller and throwing from his knees. At a time when bunts were common, he was the best at destroying that strategy. Maris was indeed a superb RFer. Great arm, great range, great at playing it off the wall. Even though he is famous for his short burst of home run prowess in the early 60s, he was a better defensive player than offensive player. Joe D. is a lock in CF. Gardner I do like out there in LF. The old timers used to talk about Bob Meusel having a great arm in LF, but he was also known for not always going all out, so who needs that? I could never keep the Mighty Mick off any squad, offense, defense or picket fence, so there has to be a spot for him. Mattingly has to be the guy at first. Tex is definitely in the running too, no question. Beyond that, you would have to go back to the Highlander days of Hal Chase. He struck his contemporaries the way Donnie Baseball struck us, and probably for his era stood out even more from the pack than Mattingly. But he also threw games and was considered an unusually shady character even at a time when there was no shortage of them. Like I'm going to tell a guy named Rizzuto that I had somebody else in mind at SS. But I didn't anyway. There was the great Horacio Ingerson who played short stop for the Yankees. It is said that was the greatest of them all defensively but he would sneak I to the game for several innings while Rizzuto snacked on cannoli. The government and MLB connived to make Ingerson’s existence a secret because he was also working for ghe government at that time. It’s all secret stuff… You know that year Rizzuto batted .194? Yep. Ingerson took his bat from him and told him to have a cannoli a few too many times… |
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 17, 2021 23:05:30 GMT -5
C Yogi Berra 1B Don Mattingly 2B Bobby Richardson SS Phil Rizzuto 3B Clete Boyer/Graig Nettles LF Brett Gardner CF Joe DiMaggio RF Mickey Mantle It’s hard to rearrange that table. I’ve also heard that Mize was amazing at first. The nickname “The Big Cat” was based on his infield play, not his offensive prowess. We’ve heard Gehrig was good in the field. I don’t think the first baseman of old time ball moved around much until people started noticing Mize. I’d stick with Donny. Richardson was very good. It was obvious to even a young child. I didn’t like him as a hitter, though he had those two strangely good years mixed with mostly mediocre hitting. Boyer/Nettles. Nettles/Boyer. Platoon them, perhaps? It’s so nice to see Gardner get the recognition, but I like the idea of Mantle on left and the rifle-armed Maris in right field. Here’s a thought. Was Berra really better than Elston Howard defensively. By the time I was aware enough to figure anything out, even Howard was past his prime. It’s so hard to tell Berra he’s going to be on the bench… Was Elston Howard really better than Bill Dickey? If so I have to tell Yogi he’s third string. I think I’d have to go with Bill Dickey. It’s all folklore, of course. And reading. But Dickey was a tank back there. The stories of his exploits are so good that I feel like he was the man… Yes, Berra was a better catcher defensively than Elston Howard. At least that’s what I’ve been told by old timers who saw them both. Of course, Berra credits Bill Dickey for teaching him the position. Berra was cat quick behind the plate and is third all-time in caught stealing at .4870% behind Clay Dalrymple at .4880 and Roy Campanella at .5721. Berra also holds the record for most seasons leading the league in double plays from the catcher position. |
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Post by inger on Jun 17, 2021 23:25:53 GMT -5
I believe Berra was more active behind the plate vs. a silky smooth Howard. I think he was also tough enough to at least be recognized as such. Bill Dickey was one hell of a teacher, apparently. That goes on top of his toughness and batting skills. I’ve always thought Dickey to be the best defensive catcher of his time, and the best the Yankees ever had. I hold him in awe. But I feel the same about Yogi. Two great players. Two wonderful skill sets. Much like Nettles and Boyer, you can’t go wrong.
I’m sure different things were important in Dickey’s day than Berra’s. Berra’s game was surely played in a more gentlemanly way the Dickey’s in the wild and wooly early days of baseball. Probably much in the way that today’s game would be softer than Berra’s… Let’s love them both, and Ellie Howard, too…
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