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Post by inger on Jun 16, 2021 20:41:56 GMT -5
One final comment on Cardinal catchers. Tim McCarver would probably be third on the list. He was a solid, if unspectacular catcher who had the confidence of titans like Gibson and Carlton. Even though he was a four-decade player. he was only 38 in his final season. Two good glove no hit catchers were Tom Pagnozzi and Mike Matheny. Daryl Porter gave them a few good years. Walker Cooper was pretty good too and maybe gives McCarver a run for number three. Not ambitious enough to look it up. He was one of those guys I remember at the very end of his career and whose baseball card I had when I first started getting them. He just looked like such an old man. He played for a lot of teams and was a seven-time All Star. And more importantly he had a cool name. I’m sure Tim feels he belongs on this team. He was nimble behind the plate, and a good stick at the position for his era. Well, a fair stick. He doesn’t. Doesn’t really belong on TV either, but he got there. Don’t forget Uecker. Let’s give him a seat in the front row! … |
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Post by kaybli on Jun 16, 2021 20:46:08 GMT -5
One final comment on Cardinal catchers. Tim McCarver would probably be third on the list. He was a solid, if unspectacular catcher who had the confidence of titans like Gibson and Carlton. Even though he was a four-decade player. he was only 38 in his final season. Two good glove no hit catchers were Tom Pagnozzi and Mike Matheny. Daryl Porter gave them a few good years. Walker Cooper was pretty good too and maybe gives McCarver a run for number three. Not ambitious enough to look it up. He was one of those guys I remember at the very end of his career and whose baseball card I had when I first started getting them. He just looked like such an old man. He played for a lot of teams and was a seven-time All Star. And more importantly he had a cool name. I’m sure Tim feels he belongs on this team. He was nimble behind the plate, and a good stick at the position for his era. Well, a fair stick. He doesn’t. Doesn’t really belong on TV either, but he got there. Don’t forget Uecker. Let’s give him a seat in the front row! … McCarver is terrible on the broadcast. Him and Joe Buck ruined so many good playoff games. Makes me want to tear my hair out!  |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 16, 2021 20:48:32 GMT -5
One final comment on Cardinal catchers. Tim McCarver would probably be third on the list. He was a solid, if unspectacular catcher who had the confidence of titans like Gibson and Carlton. Even though he was a four-decade player. he was only 38 in his final season. Two good glove no hit catchers were Tom Pagnozzi and Mike Matheny. Daryl Porter gave them a few good years. Walker Cooper was pretty good too and maybe gives McCarver a run for number three. Not ambitious enough to look it up. He was one of those guys I remember at the very end of his career and whose baseball card I had when I first started getting them. He just looked like such an old man. He played for a lot of teams and was a seven-time All Star. And more importantly he had a cool name. I’m sure Tim feels he belongs on this team. He was nimble behind the plate, and a good stick at the position for his era. Well, a fair stick. He doesn’t. Doesn’t really belong on TV either, but he got there. Don’t forget Uecker. Let’s give him a seat in the front row! … I tried to blot out McCarver's broadcasting tenure when considering him as a player. He was insufferable and very full of himself. I can't tell you how many times I used to yell "shut up McCarver" when he was behind the mic. |
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 16, 2021 20:51:11 GMT -5
Perspective: During Simmons career, he nabbed 34% of baserunners and that was exactly the league average during those years. Runners were not particularly discouraged from running. Molina’s 40% is compared to a league average of 28%, and few date to test his arm. On a team with an uncertain DH, I’d consider Simmons getting Simmons switch-hitting stick a fair share of time there. Without the burden of catching full time, his offensive numbers may be elevated a bit. Of course, Molina could also be inserted for defense, or used strategically against the best-running teams. There is no real wrong approach here… One could argue that baseball players today rarely test any catcher’s arm. Players just don’t run like they did in the past, and there are no great base stealers in today’s game. If athletes today are supposedly so much faster, you’d think a few records for steals would be broken. Instead, it’s become a lost art. Simmons had to contend with many more speed demons in his era. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 16, 2021 20:52:47 GMT -5
Uh oh. I can see both of your arguments.
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 16, 2021 20:56:52 GMT -5
Uh oh. I can see both of your arguments. A sign of intelligence. Or, a waffler. Usually Inger takes the fence sitting placement at HeAmyHa. I just cannot take Molina over Simmons with a 98 OPS+. And, your point about Bench was a good one. That was a high bar to reach in that era, as was Munson and Fisk and then Carter. |
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Post by pippsheadache on Jun 16, 2021 20:58:45 GMT -5
It's possible to be both intelligent and a waffler.
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 16, 2021 21:05:53 GMT -5
It's possible to be both intelligent and a waffler. Indeed, self-evident. Though Noetsi may argue. |
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Post by inger on Jun 16, 2021 21:24:45 GMT -5
Oh, I’ll change my my mind. Decisions are like a diamond to me. There are many facets to review. I’m a big fan of both players, really. I’m not much of a fan of letting OPS + be a final determining factor, but there IS a pretty good delta here.
My thinking is that Molina would have been even more valuable in Simmon’s running era, so that is yet another facet of the diamond of decision-making. I fully doubt that Molina would have allowed over 100 steals as Simmons did a couple of times. I do think they make a great pair for their varying skill sets…
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 16, 2021 22:33:01 GMT -5
Oh, I’ll change my my mind. Decisions are like a diamond to me. There are many facets to review. I’m a big fan of both players, really. I’m not much of a fan of letting OPS + be a final determining factor, but there IS a pretty good delta here. My thinking is that Molina would have been even more valuable in Simmon’s running era, so that is yet another facet of the diamond of decision-making. I fully doubt that Molina would have allowed over 100 steals as Simmons did a couple of times. I do think they make a great pair for their varying skill sets… You could be right. Of course, Molina likely could never allow over 100 steals, because that’s probably around the total number of attempts he sees per year. In 2019, the last full season prior to COVID-19, Ronald Acura, Jr. led the NL with 37 stolen bases. From 1968 to 1988 - the years Ted Simmons was in MLB - the range of stolen bases that led the NL was 53 - 118. Fifteen of those twenty years, the leader stole 70 or more bases. Only twice in that period was it below 60. Last season's per-game average was 0.52 stolen bases per team. And, had Molina played during Simmons’ time, he may not have won many Gold Gloves with Johnny Bench around. In the history of MLB, finding good fielding catchers has never been a problem. Finding good hitting catchers has always been more difficult. |
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Post by inger on Jun 16, 2021 22:47:50 GMT -5
Again, many facets to view. To the layman, if we are asked to choose the very best facet of a diamond, we may be dumbfounded and struggle see the difference. An expert with a loop will quickly know. In the end, the starter on this pair will likely start 110 games with the other offering respite for the other 52. The difference to the team will be minimaI… The better defender of the two may take over for the last 2-3 innings 30 times. The better hitter of the two may be used as a pinch-hitter for the better defender 20 times. It would be more than fun to manage that situation in any case…
One final note: How many gold gloves a player won is not all that important. The management of handing out the hardware is too skewed to give it too much weight. Bench vs. Molina defense only would be a great argument for another time and place. Off hand, my thinking is that Bench is the king, but I’d need to study that much deeper than I care to go right at this point… Thank goodness JWild isn’t here. We’d never get to the end of this thread…
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 16, 2021 23:10:39 GMT -5
Again, many facets to view. To the layman, if we are asked to choose the very best facet of a diamond, we may be dumbfounded and struggle see the difference. An expert with a loop will quickly know. In the end, the starter on this pair will likely start 110 games with the other offering respite for the other 52. The difference to the team will be minimaI… The better defender of the two may take over for the last 2-3 innings 30 times. The better hitter of the two may be used as a pinch-hitter for the better defender 20 times. It would be more than fun to manage that situation in any case… One final note: How many gold gloves a player won is not all that important. The management of handing out the hardware is too skewed to give it too much weight. Bench vs. Molina defense only would be a great argument for another time and place. Off hand, my thinking is that Bench is the king, but I’d need to study that much deeper than I care to go right at this point… Thank goodness JWild isn’t here. We’d never get to the end of this thread… Yadier Molina is famous for his 9 Gold Gloves. It’s mentioned in every broadcast for a Cardinals’ game, and often by the opposition’s broadcast team. The point is Bench won 10 straight Gold Gloves and is considered the “gold standard” for catchers, offensively and defensively. Simmons had the bad timing of starting his MLB career one year after Johnny Bench and in the National League. Bench overshadowed every catcher in the National League, including Ted Simmons. In fact, many thought Simmons was a better all around hitter, as he hit for better average and didn’t strikeout nearly as often as Bench. Bench had more power and many more opportunities to drive in runs with Pete Rose and Joe Morgan hitting in front of him. |
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Post by rizzuto on Jun 16, 2021 23:15:42 GMT -5
Are we forgetting Joe Torre’s tenure (1969-1974) with the St. Louis Cardinals? . 308/.382/.458/.840 OPS+ 133, 4 all star games and an MVP in 1971 (230 hits and none of them because of speed).
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Post by inger on Jun 16, 2021 23:20:02 GMT -5
Again, many facets to view. To the layman, if we are asked to choose the very best facet of a diamond, we may be dumbfounded and struggle see the difference. An expert with a loop will quickly know. In the end, the starter on this pair will likely start 110 games with the other offering respite for the other 52. The difference to the team will be minimaI… The better defender of the two may take over for the last 2-3 innings 30 times. The better hitter of the two may be used as a pinch-hitter for the better defender 20 times. It would be more than fun to manage that situation in any case… One final note: How many gold gloves a player won is not all that important. The management of handing out the hardware is too skewed to give it too much weight. Bench vs. Molina defense only would be a great argument for another time and place. Off hand, my thinking is that Bench is the king, but I’d need to study that much deeper than I care to go right at this point… Thank goodness JWild isn’t here. We’d never get to the end of this thread… Yadier Molina is famous for his 9 Gold Gloves. It’s mentioned in every broadcast for a Cardinals’ game, and often by the opposition’s broadcast team. The point is Bench won 10 straight Gold Gloves and is considered the “gold standard” for catchers, offensively and defensively. Simmons had the bad timing of starting his MLB career one year after Johnny Bench and in the National League. Bench overshadowed every catcher in the National League, including Ted Simmons. In fact, many thought Simmons was a better all around hitter, as he hit for better average and didn’t strikeout nearly as often as Bench. Bench had more power and many more opportunities to drive in runs with Pete Rose and Joe Morgan hitting in front of him. No argument with any of this, except that I still don’t take a lot of stock in gold gloves. I believe Bench and Molina both deserve all the metal they won. Bench is too much of this discussion because he has nothing to do with this Cardinal team… |
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Post by inger on Jun 16, 2021 23:23:31 GMT -5
Are we forgetting Joe Torre’s tenure (1969-1974) with the St. Louis Cardinals? . 308/.382/.458/.840 OPS+ 133, 4 all star games and an MVP in 1971 (230 hits and none of them because of speed). As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger when he and the Ranger were surrounded by Indians… Ranger says. “We’re in trouble now Tonto”… Tonto says “Who you mean we, white man”? … Torre would make a strange bench piece, but with Catcher, third and first on his resume, a valuable one. Our very own Jim Leyritz… 🤓 |
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